Do you believe this is...

[MA2444]

Okay,

What is the source of your free will?

I could ask the same question of you...what makes you think Angels have a free will?

I dunno, maybe a scripture that said one of God's Angels got filled with pride and had the not so broght idea of exalting himself above God?

He must'a just smoked a jpint, lol.

The source of my free will is the same as the source of my life. But you can't accept that little truth so will extrapolate it to mean something else.

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. James 1:13

That's correct.

What is the source of Evil Desire?

God's Divine Nature or Corrupting flesh?

Answer honestly MA.

Well let me see here, I'll take door #2 Bob. It must be that Lucifer turned into Satan with his evil desires which had grown out of his pride. Since Satan is the father of lies we can attribute the evil in this world to him having corrupted the flesh of man through his lies.

Door #2, Corrupting flesh.

 

[face2face]

Yet … your presumed “fair” assessment is irrelevant, regarding me.

I stand confidant In Gods “just” assessment, regarding me.

That might be so, but the void in your understanding is apparent concerning angels, divine nature, the death state and the eternal hope.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Needless to say, a rejected “offering” is “moot”.

The door is always ajar.

 

[face2face]

You presenting yourself as a Christian without the basic elementary knowledge regarding Christianity…is foolishness to think yourself prepared for a spiritual conversation.

You were given Scriptural “evidence”…and rejected it. That is accountable to you, not me. Not my job to convince you or understand for you.

I've experience this many times in this forum where a Christian holds to a belief which they have been taught possibly as a child but never challenged its authenticity. I doubt you have ever had to prove the false doctrine of fallen angels before (am I right?). It's harder than you first thought? Wait until you really commit to seeking the truth of the matter! Doors open up everywhere and the foundation you thought to be so strong immovable becomes sinking sand. It happened to Nicodemus you will recall? Saul also during his 3 days of blindness. It will happen to many Christians when the Lord returns - it will happen to me also! The truth of the matter is whether we are teachable or not. Many are not.
F2F

 

[Taken]

That might be so, but the void in your understanding is apparent concerning angels, divine nature, the death state and the eternal hope.

F2F

Your opinion, your error, moot effect or consequence for me.

 

[face2face]

I dunno, maybe a scripture that said one of God's Angels got filled with pride and had the not so broght idea of exalting himself above God?

So maybe you were watching a Hollywood Movie and you thought "yeah, that looks about right"

He must'a just smoked a jpint, lol.

You raise this a lot...a problem?

The source of my free will is the same as the source of my life. But you can't accept that little truth so will extrapolate it to mean something else.

In other words you don't know?

Well let me see here, I'll take door #2 Bob. It must be that Lucifer turned into Satan with his evil desires which had grown out of his pride. Since Satan is the father of lies we can attribute the evil in this world to him having corrupted the flesh of man through his lies.

Do you have a book in the Bible at least?

Door #2, Corrupting flesh.

Correct - Divine nature cannot sin.


F2F

 

[Taken]

The door is always ajar.

No interest in your “door”.

 

[face2face]

Your opinion, your error, moot effect or consequence for me.

No need for insecurity Taken.

Did you look at Genesis 3:22? Speaking of Angels, or God Himself?

Do you have evidence of fallen angels which you believe is irrefutable evidence?

Do you believe when you are changed in the twinkling of an eye and your mortal frame will take on immortality that you will still be able to sin?

And if so, die?

Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ when he states clearly Angels cannot die

"for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36

Can you see the Elohim in this verse? The Angels of God who always obey His Commands as His will is always done in Heaven?

Why would you mar your own reward?

It's perplexing the extent a person will go to defend error and be satisfied to live with the contradiction.

Crazy

F2F

 

[Taken]

I've experience this many times in this forum where a Christian holds to a belief which they have been taught possibly as a child but never challenged its authenticity.

You are wrong on all of your guessworks.

I doubt you have ever had to prove the false doctrine of fallen angels before (am I right?).

You have convinced me you reject Scripture regarding angels that sinned, and further failed to study the Scriptures regarding “unclean spirits”, or how or why they became “unclean spirits”.

Your failures and your opinions have zero effect on what my Lord, who IS Gods truth, has taught me and I trust to believe.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[face2face]

You are wrong on all of your guessworks.



You have convinced me you reject Scripture regarding angels that sinned, and further failed to study the Scriptures regarding “unclean spirits”, or how or why they became “unclean spirits”.

Your failures and your opinions have zero effect on what my Lord, who IS Gods truth, has taught me and I trust to believe.

Glory to God,
Taken

This is not about convincing you Taken its about you being able to prove your doctrine which you know you cannot.

 

[Taken]

No need for insecurity Taken.

No need for you to make such a comment.
I am very serious regarding Gods Word.

Do you have evidence of fallen angels which you believe is irrefutable evidence?

Scripture….angels that sinned.
Scripture…manKinds estate is Earth.
Scripture…holy angels estate is Heaven.
Scripture…holy angels that exercised their freewill to BECOME unholy, were cast Down to Earth.
Scripture….the Son of Man returns to Earth with “holy angels”.
Scripture….Jesus while ON Earth rebuked an “unclean spirit.”
Scripture…Future, “holy angels” (approx 2/3 of all angels) and “unclean spirits” having been cast to earth (approx 1/3 of all angels)…
SHALL…IN the air above the Earth…Battle.

Do you ALSO REJECT THAT battle between…
Holy and Fallen Angels is prophetic and shall occur?

Do you believe when you are changed in the twinkling of an eye and your mortal frame will take on immortality that you will still be able to sin?

No such ISSUE for me…
I am ALREADY “body, soul, spirit” FREED from SIN, and can SIN “NO MORE”..

Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ when he states clearly Angels cannot die.

Ofcourse….Angels…”holy or fallen” CAN NOT DIE…THEY LIVE FOREVER….
WITH God…called “holy angels”
WITHOUT God…called “unclean spirits”, (demons, fallen angels.)

"for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36

Yep. Applies to a man MADE wholly whole, body, soul, spirit.

Can you see the Elohim in this verse? The Angels of God who always obey His Commands as His will is always done in Heaven?

Yep…Always done in Heaven….but not exclusively ONLY in Heaven. Holy angels do many GOOD WORKS ON EARTH, as Faithful ministering Angels of God.

Why would you mar your own reward?

My reward is fully intact being stored up in Heaven in Gods care.
Your wonderment and accusation is moot.

It's perplexing the extent a person will go to defend error and be satisfied to live with the contradiction.

I know….and do wonder why you label yourself Christian while rejecting Gods own Word. Crazy indeed.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

This is not about convincing you Taken its about you being able to prove your doctrine which you know you cannot.

Look pal….you have been given express Scriptures regarding angels that sinned…
Holy angels DO NOT SIN!
Not my job to MAKE you Believe Scripture nor is it my job to UNDERSTAND Scripture FOR you…

You repeatedly asking for “evidence” you have already be given, expressly from Gods Scriptural word, and REJECTING such Scriptures, and then repeatedly FALSELY ACCUSING you were given no such “evidence”….
IS OLD, BORING, and is teetering on you revealing your truth as an advocate of and for Satan himself.

Jesus labeled men displaying that characteristic as Hypocrite's.

Not interested in playing your game.

 

[face2face]

No need for you to make such a comment.
I am very serious regarding Gods Word.

At present I question that as I am yet to see you use the Word with care and skillfully.

You have not spoken to Genesis 3:22 - is this avoidance on your part?

Scripture….angels that sinned.

You are yet to prove these are Divine messengers

Scripture…manKinds estate is Earth.
Scripture…holy angels estate is Heaven.
Scripture…holy angels that exercised their freewill to BECOME unholy, were cast Down to Earth.

Again - cast down? Where is this story? Is this embedded error placed there by another?

Scripture….the Son of Man returns to Earth with “holy angels”.

All Angels are Holy!

Scripture….Jesus while ON Earth rebuked an “unclean spirit.”

In other words an illness yes? Maybe you are yet to learn about cultural context?

Scripture…Future, “holy angels” (approx 2/3 of all angels) and “unclean spirits” having been cast to earth (approx 1/3 of all angels)…
SHALL…IN the air above the Earth…Battle.

Again where?

Do you ALSO REJECT THAT battle between…
Holy and Fallen Angels is prophetic and shall occur?

Show me this story!

No such ISSUE for me…
I am ALREADY “body, soul, spirit” FREED from SIN, and can SIN “NO MORE”..




Ofcourse….Angels…”holy or fallen” CAN NOT DIE…THEY LIVE FOREVER….
WITH God…called “holy angels”
WITHOUT God…called “unclean spirits”, (demons, fallen angels.)



Yep. Applies to a man MADE wholly whole, body, soul, spirit.



Yep…Always done in Heaven….but not exclusively ONLY in Heaven. Holy angels do many GOOD WORKS ON EARTH, as Faithful ministering Angels of God.



My reward is fully intact being stored up in Heaven in Gods care.
Your wonderment and accusation is moot.



I know….and do wonder why you label yourself Christian while rejecting Gods own Word. Crazy indeed.


Glory to God,
Taken

You have a lot going on there as though you are pulling notions from various parts of Scripture all of which are unrelated to the subject at hand

The lack of Scripture and allowing that Word to Speak is becoming deafening

F2F

 

[face2face]

Look pal….you have been given express Scriptures regarding angels that sinned…

I asked you about 2 Peter 2's context - what is the story? What is the OT scripture being alluded to in that section? If you don't know then ask.

Holy angels DO NOT SIN!
Not my job to MAKE you Believe Scripture nor is it my job to UNDERSTAND Scripture FOR you…

Again, all Angels are Holy - they are Gods Divine Nature. You cannot have Gods Divine Nature being Evil

You repeatedly asking for “evidence” you have already be given, expressly from Gods Scriptural word, and REJECTING such Scriptures, and then repeatedly FALSELY ACCUSING you were given no such “evidence”….
IS OLD, BORING, and is teetering on you revealing your truth as an advocate of and for Satan himself.

It's this type of assumption which places you in error.
1. You invent a fallen angel
2. You instill fear where there is none
3. You teach immortality can sin & die (crazy!)
4. You teach chaos in Heaven (unthinkable)
5. You misinterpret sections of Scripture to support your fanciful notions of a rebel angel without having an origin story.

Jesus labeled men displaying that characteristic as Hypocrite's.

Not interested in playing your game.

No game here Taken - as you said "I take God's Word seriously"

Why are you reluctant to deal with Gen 3:22?

I've asked numerous times.

F2F

 

[MA2444]

Do you have a book in the Bible at least?

Apparently I read mine more than you read yours.

So maybe you were watching a Hollywood Movie and you thought "yeah, that looks about right"

The scripture that you didn't read is in Isaiah 14.

 

[face2face]

The scripture that you didn't read is in Isaiah 14.

Care to explain?

 

[face2face]

So lets deal with Genesis 3:22 seeing it appears no one here wants to for fear of having their religious paradigm removed.

"And Yahweh Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

The name "Lord God" or Yahweh Elohim relates to the Elohim or "angels" which is also shown in Psalm 8:5 where Elohim is translated "angels"

Psalm 8:5 NET
8:5 and make them a little less than the heavenly beings (angels)? You grant mankind honor and majesty

*Note: Septuagint than the angels
*KJV Angels

It is through these Angels that Yahweh reveals Himself and implies that the Elohim had experience of both good and evil.

As created beings, the Elohim (angels) had probably attained their divine nature through a period of probation and testing. This is strongly suggested in that equality with the angels is set before believers in Christ as a matter of hope (Luke 20:36). That being the case,
it would have been with understanding sympathy that they would have observed Adam and Eve in a similar condition.

To "know" is to experience experimentally, to feel the effect of the state described in some personal and tangible manner.

Unlike God Himself the angels looking at Adam & Eve could relate to the sin-prone, death-doomed state and now would become instrumental in helping them into the future Kingdom

Hebrews 1:4

Are they not all ministering spirits (angels) sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

All Angels are ministering Spirits sent to assist us with Salvation and a place in God's Kingdom.

Here is an interesting thought.

We are made in their image and likeness, so are we surprised all Angels present as we do? Even Christ was made a little lower than the angels and of course we understand that angels, saints, Christ himself is made in the image and likeness of God Himself as he is manifested through Christ, Angels and the Saints of the Most High God.

So what have we proved here?

Angels are at work in Genesis 1-3
Angels behold the face of their Father
Angels have known evil by experience however been granted a glorified nature (Divine)
Angels cannot sin as exhibited in their urgency to get Adam & Eve out of the Garden!
Angels cannot die as they have eternal life/immortality
Angels are ministering Spirits to assist us with salvation
Angels cannot fall, sin or die (impossible)

As Christ said the raised and glorified will be like the Angels who cannot die but will live for eternity..unable to sin no more!~

F2F

 

[Taken]

All Angels are Holy!


F2F

No.

 

[Taken]

Again, all Angels are Holy - they are Gods Divine Nature. You cannot have Gods Divine Nature being Evil

God established PRECEPTS…of BEHAVIOR.
Add…an “o”….the PRECEPT of GOOD, in the likeness AS “GOD”.
Add….a “d”….the PRECEPT of DEVIL, in the likeness AS “EVIL”
Turn AROUND…FROM EVIL…FROM DEVIL…
And the REVERSE…is FROM
EVIL…to LIVE
is FROM
DEVIL…to LIVED



Angels were CREATED….Holy
Mankind was CREATED…Good

Angels AND mankind were CREATED and THEN MADE with the ABILITY to FREELY CHOOSE… to Believe and Do (behavior).according to what IS “holy”, what IS “good”.

Your LACK of FREEWILL to read, study, learn, Believe, Scripture regarding FREEWILL CHOICES, BEHAVIORS Angels and manKIND, Freely Chose to DO, and their “Consequences” thereof FOR their “CHOICES”… is painfully Obvious.

* Your repetitive DISBELIEF of Fallen Angels;
* Your failure to SEARCH the Scriptures yourself For Gods own revealed KNOWLEDGE.
* and your DEMAND others GIVE YOU “UNDERSTANDING” to satisfy your Carnal Mind…
* IS NOT an “OTHERS” JOB, to read, learn, believe, Gods provided Knowledge, “FOR YOU” or DISCOVER HOW TO, receive Gods Understanding of His Knowledge, “FOR YOU”.

You DENY ANY Angels have elected, chosen by exercising their own FREE-WILL, to themselves REJECT God, STAND AGAINST God. That’s on YOU, to exercise your own FREE-WILL to NOT read, NOT learn, NOT believe, NOT understand that which is REVEALED.

You attempting to PLACE blame, of your failures on OTHERS, is the oldest trick in the book and aside from being incredibly boring, it is laughable on it’s face.

Perhaps to AVOID making Foolish arguments you should spend some time looking up the;
65 times “A DEVIL” is mentioned in Scripture,
And the:
57 times “DEVILS” are mentioned in Scripture…

And come ARMED with the TRUTH of WHO or WHAT a DEVIL and DEVILS “are” and HOW and WHY they came to Be given such a Description.

Presently you are in attack and demand mode, which IS NOT anyone’s obligation to defend your attacks or appease your demands.

Establish your OWN Evidence to Support YOUR OWN STANDING…

“all Angels are Holy”

2 Pet 2:
… angels that sinned

Perhaps you should LEARN that that which “IS” HOLY, does NOT SIN.

Perhaps you should LEARN that that which “IS” HOLY…and COMMITS SIN….that “being”, IS NO LONGER HOLY! That “being” has “FALLEN AWAY FROM” being HOLY!

Not a complicated mystery!!

It's this type of assumption which places you in error.
1. You invent a fallen angel

FALSE. I invent nothing regarding angels.
I do recognize and BELIEVE (unlike you) Gods Word of KNOWLEDGE, which REVEALS
Approx 1/3 of holy angels TURNED AGAINST GOD and ARE NO LONGER HOLY!

2. You instill fear where there is none

FALSE. I did Not mention FEAR. However that being another topic, Scripture itself mentions FEAR over 700 times, if that subject interests you.

3. You teach immortality can sin & die (crazy!)

I spoke of DEATH, to (you) a babe without understanding. My error, to have been fooled by your “title” of Christian that you revealed, and me for a moment believing you knew and understood the Difference between a Physical Mortal Death and a Death of Separation from God, of a mortal or immortal.
I apologize for not recognizing your lack of Spiritual understanding early on in conversing with you.

4. You teach chaos in Heaven (unthinkable)

It is expressly revealed IN Scripture, to which, I choose (unlike you) to Believe.

Rev 12:
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

5. You misinterpret sections of Scripture to support your fanciful notions of a rebel angel without having an origin story.

Scripture itself reveals the origin.
Isa 14:
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Not my JOB to read, study, learn, FOR YOU, WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY, WHERE…became of Lucifer..

Why are you reluctant to deal with Gen 3:22?

I am not reluctant to “deal”, or otherwise have a meaningful discussion regarding Gen 3:22.

I have ZERO expectation to have a meaningful discussion regarding Gen 3:22 WITH YOU, who has repeatedly revealed you are ARMED with carnal thoughts and feelings and NOT with Gods Truth, NOR Gods understanding of His knowledge.

I've asked numerous times.

I noticed and ignored based on your proven lack of being equipped to have a civil conversation regarding spiritual things.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[MA2444]

Care to explain?

Did you read that chapter in Isaiah?
After you read that chapter, you will (should) understand why my thinking isnt "Hollywood"

That's the chapter that holds the script of the fall of Lucifer.

Then I'll explain further if you have questions...