Deception

[farouk]

Yep

Thought so...

 

[n2thelight]

Thought so...

Why did you ask?

 

[farouk]

Why did you ask?

I saw the name on your post.

 

[Naomi25]

Let me ask you a simple question,did not Christ tell us everything that will and must happen before His return?I ask because I'm wondering how you can believe in a rapture .

I don't believe in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture, if that's what you mean. But as far as 'believing in a Rapture' goes, we have plenty of bible verses that speak of Christians who are alive at the time of Christ's return being gathered together and lifted up to meet him in the air. What on earth else would you call it? I put it solidly at his return, which is a single, end event, but the bible clearly speaks about it. So...my question would be...how do you NOT believe in it?

Again,everything was a type for us,to whom the end would come.

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns. What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings.

You're speaking of shadow and type. Which I agree with. OT if full of these type of 'anticipatory' events, which shadow 'truer' ones to come; thus the Exodus was a 'type' of Christ's rescuing work, for example.

Each of the events that took place, the opening of the Red sea, the building of the false religious forms, and so on. God is telling us "look little children that is what is going to happen to you at the close of this earth age". We are living in that age, and these things are happening now. Can you learn by this? It is so simple. God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation.

Although physical then, for us it's spiritual.

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

So,what? You're suggesting that the use of type and shadow in the OT and the fact that we face spiritual opposition means that we must take passages of scripture that have a clear meaning and twist it into something it clearly doesn't say?
Look...I'm down with the type and shadows...the bible uses them a lot and for strong effect. I'm even happy to consider there are elements of the 70AD destruction that are, themelves, types and shadows of 'end times' events to come. And I'm certianly, as an Amillennialist, willing to see symbology at work when the genre calls for it and other texts clearly support that particular interpretation.
However, unless you can quote other scriptures showing that being pregnant...."woe to being pregnant!" is also seen as a spiritual analogy for being spiritually fed and deceived lies...then all you're doing is making wild, out of context assumptions with nothing to back it up with.

This battle we are going to fight against is not "flesh and blood", it is not people you see and hear, but it is against hidden and deceitful spiritual powers. Satan is the prince of darkness, and spiritually he controls the minds and actions of not only rulers of this earth, but all evil spirits in the heavenlies. These are the angelic beings in a fallen state.

Are you prepared mentally to do battle with Them? This battle is not with guns and swords, but with words and doctrines; with concepts and ideas, and these are the "fiery darts" that Satan will conduct his warfare against you with.

Daniel 8:23 will give us a view of what this ruler of darkness is like. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."

This king in the "latter time" is Satan, the Antichrist; he is the "king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences". In the Hebrew text it means that Satan is "skilled in dissimulation" of the truth of God's word. Satan knows all of God's word, and as such, he is the father of lies and deception. He will twist and turn the truth a little here and a little there, to make it an outright lie. Satan is the Antichrist on earth, and we must never forget it.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

He will take away so much of Christianity, and cause so much deception through false doctrines [such as the rapture doctrine] that all those without their full [whole] armor on, will be deceived. He comes "in" [to this earth] with the promise of peace and prosperity; with false hopes and a promise to fulfill your every wish, if you will but follow him.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Satan's "policy" is the way he fights, which is his method of operation. The "craft to prosper in his hand", refers to his ability that God will give him to do many miracles and wonders. Revelation 13 tells us how he will use this deceit to trick the whole world, except for God's elect, those with the seal of God {knowledge} in their minds.

"He shall magnify himself in his heart", is covered in II Thessalonians 2:4; "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing [calling] himself that he is God." This is the "Abomination of desolation [by the desolator]" spoken of in Daniel 9:27, and by Jesus in Matthew 24:15.

"By peace" is Satan's secret weapon, for peace is the most powerful weapon used against God's people in this final generation. It is dismantling the mind of the Christian church and disarming our nation today. In the end Satan will be "broken without hand", because it will be by the tow edged sword which comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ. The same sword that spoke and worlds were formed, and the stars were put in their places. However, we must not underestimate Satan's power to deceive, and his miracles, and cries for peace, peace, peace.

Yeah. So? Satan and his minions are deceptive. The AC is evil and deceptive. It's going to be a spiritual battle.
This is found elsewhere. No one needs Matt 24:19 to be talking about what you say it is to be understanding this. And the fact that it is stated so clearly and factually elsewhere numerous times is also a factor against v19 being a sneaky, symbolic message whacked in the chapter there, in the middle of nowhere.

I disagree ,as I feel it's being pregnant with the wrong husband.

Well, everyone's free to their own opinions I suppose. You feel free to believe it. I'll feel free to disagree.

 

[n2thelight]

Well, everyone's free to their own opinions I suppose. You feel free to believe it. I'll feel free to disagree.

All good.

 

[n2thelight]

I don't believe in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture, if that's what you mean. But as far as 'believing in a Rapture' goes, we have plenty of bible verses that speak of Christians who are alive at the time of Christ's return being gathered together and lifted up to meet him in the air. What on earth else would you call it? I put it solidly at his return, which is a single, end event, but the bible clearly speaks about it. So...my question would be...how do you NOT believe in it?

I prefer to just call it our gathering,and that happens at the 7th and last trump

 

[Naomi25]

I prefer to just call it our gathering,and that happens at the 7th and last trump

I suppose calling it "the Rapture" does make it confusing with the Pre-trib Rapture, doesn't it? I suppose we (who do so, even though we're not talking about a pre-trib one), do so because we see it as the same sort of 'event', just the timing is quite different. And...well...the timing changes the whole profile of it as well...but that's not really the point at the second!

 

[Enoch111]

I prefer to just call it our gathering,and that happens at the 7th and last trump

Why do people think that the 7th trumpet which announces the worst of God's wrath has anything to do with the trump of God for the Rapture (called the last trump as applied to the redeemed, not the wicked)?

It is totally absurd to combine the culmination of salvation with the culmination of wrath by mixing up everything.

 

[n2thelight]

I suppose calling it "the Rapture" does make it confusing with the Pre-trib Rapture, doesn't it? I suppose we (who do so, even though we're not talking about a pre-trib one), do so because we see it as the same sort of 'event', just the timing is quite different. And...well...the timing changes the whole profile of it as well...but that's not really the point at the second!

Naw guess it's not the point right now,the pregnant woman is :)

So you think most of the events in Matt 24 happened in AD 70?

Do you see the 7 seals from Revelations in that chapter?

And when He said this generation will not pass,what generation do you think He was talking about?

 

[n2thelight]

Why do people think that the 7th trumpet which announces the worst of God's wrath has anything to do with the trump of God for the Rapture (called the last trump as applied to the redeemed, not the wicked)?

It is totally absurd to combine the culmination of salvation with the culmination of wrath by mixing up everything.

Until you can show me an 8th trump in scripture I'll stay with the 7th being last!!!

 

[Naomi25]

Naw guess it's not the point right now,the pregnant woman is :)

So you think most of the events in Matt 24 happened in AD 70?

Do you see the 7 seals from Revelations in that chapter?

And when He said this generation will not pass,what generation do you think He was talking about?

I see verses 15-21 as specifically dealing with 70AD, but as I said, do not discount the possibility of it being a 'type' of something else coming.

Verses 4-14 seem to be dealing with signs that will cover this whole period, and indeed, we see them. And after the 'temple' speech, he jumps back, in 22-28, to things that will again run across the breadth of this age; concerns of deception, trial and how we need to be watchful.

I think both these things can be confirmed when we consider Matt 24 in conjunction with Luke 21. Again in 8-19 he speaks of things we see daily, and history tells us have been with us since Christ's day. 20-24 talks about Jerusalem and the temple. Between Matt and Luke we see it specific to that time and location and people...not worldwide. Then, as Matt 22-28, we see in Luke verse 24 that for this whole time period Jerusalem will be 'trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled". I think this shows that until the last "Christian" comes to Christ, this period will be in effect.

Then both Matt and Luke go onto the sign that immediately preceed, or I would say, accompany Christ's return.

As far as seeing the seals of Revelation in Matt, yes, I think we do see the first 6.
The first one, the rider bent on conquest; many say this rider represents war, but while he has a bow, he has no quiver. White horses are only riden by kings, by conquerors. This man is a leader, and if he conquers the world and is not of Christ, we must assume he is a deceiver. (Matt 24:4-5)
The second seal, the red rider with a sword, is clearly: war (Matt 24:6)
The third seal, the black horse; scales...famine (Matt 24:7)
The forth seal, the pale horse...Death; pestilence (Matt 24:7)
The fith seal, the persecuted saints under the alter (Matt 24:9)

I believe the seventh seal describes Christ's return, and that this whole "set" of judgements describes this whole "interadvental" period of time.

 

[brakelite]

Scripture informs us that the majority of residents on this planet are already in Babylon...a spiritual condition of confusion and drunkenness. Jeremiah makes the point that the wine of Babylon, her teachings, make people mad. Another term for drunkenness. The idea of numerous discordant opinions being offered as 'truth' seems to be the prime characteristic of this Babylon. On this thread we have several such discordant thoughts and opinions. Only one can be the 'truth', and maybe none. So where does that leave everyone? I wouldn't personally be so confident in proclaiming my position WADR. Madness can affect anyone, even Christians.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't see the mark of the beast as a physical mark, but I have to agree that you've stepped away from the true intent of Matt 24:19. The passage around v19 is clearly speaking of the AD70 destruction of the temple. There are several reasons we can determine this. Christ speaks of Judea, so it's given a cultural location...it's not worldwide, like you'd expect with the mark. Again, cultural references are shown with the flat rooftops, the walled city. We also know several things: if indeed such a terrible day fell on the Sabbath, travel is forbidden and that would have made it very difficult to flee the city. Common sense tells us that pregnant and nursing mothers would find fleeing difficult. And common sense also dictated that in the case of an oncoming army, people fled TO cities, not away from them. And yet historically, that's exactly what the Christians did. When the Roman army approached, they remembered Christ's warning, and fled to the hills...and Josephus confirms that the Christians were spared the horrifiying seige that followed.
Given that we can be sure that this passage is talking of the destruction of the temple...and we can be sure...the Disciples had, after all, asked when THAT temple would be destroyed, not a future one....it is a rather odd and unnatural take on the passage to suddenly throw in an understanding about the mark...physical or not.

I’d have an even harder Time fleeing into the mountains of Judea than the women with infants, given I live in North America.

 

[Enoch111]

Until you can show me an 8th trump in scripture I'll stay with the 7th being last!!!

You just don't get it. The trumpets which summon God's people to gather together cannot possibly be equated with the trumpets heralding God's wrath on the ungodly. That would be absurd.

 

[Naomi25]

I’d have an even harder Time fleeing into the mountains of Judea than the women with infants, given I live in North America.

I'm In Australia!! Just as well Jesus is only talking to the Christians of the time, then.

 

[Waiting on him]

I'm In Australia!! Just as well Jesus is only talking to the Christians of the time, then.

I wish there were more discussion on the reason for the destruction of the temple.

Mark 12:38-44 KJV
[38] And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, [39] And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: [40] Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. [41] And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. [42] And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. [43] And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: [44] For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.


Tecarta BibleI can’t say how many times I heard it preached that Jesus was so amazed at this widows devotion, and how every Christian should have the faith she had in giving all.

40 which devour widows houses. We see this all over the TV today it’s why he brought it down (religion).

Many little Pharisees out there today

 

[Naomi25]

I wish there were more discussion on the reason for the destruction of the temple.

Mark 12:38-44 KJV
[38] And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, [39] And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: [40] Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. [41] And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. [42] And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. [43] And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: [44] For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.


Tecarta BibleI can’t say how many times I heard it preached that Jesus was so amazed at this widows devotion, and how every Christian should have the faith she had in giving all.

40 which devour widows houses. We see this all over the TV today it’s why he brought it down (religion).

Many little Pharisees out there today

I was listening to something that touched on this just today!


See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” -Matthew 23:38–39 - Matthew 24:1–3

Then the glory of the LORD went out from the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubim. -Ezekiel 10:18

And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city. -Ezekiel 11:23


Basically, they were saying that when Matthew says that "Jesus left the temple", that this is actually a theological claim...in his early ministry, he is always "going into the temple" which is a theological claim of the presence of God...Jesus had come to 'end their exile'. But at the end of the "woes" (Ch23), Jesus "leaves" the temple. Then in Ch24,v3 it says that he "sat down on the Mt of Olives". Both of these refer back to a passage in Ezekiel (the ones above), the first saying that the glory of the Lord leaves the temple, the second saying that it goes up to the mountain on the east of the city; the Mt of Olives...so essentially Ezekiel is envisioning THIS day, when the presence of the Lord (Jesus) will leave the temple, passing judgement on the nation after they have rejected him.


I found it interesting, anyway!

 

[Davy]

I don't see the mark of the beast as a physical mark, but I have to agree that you've stepped away from the true intent of Matt 24:19. The passage around v19 is clearly speaking of the AD70 destruction of the temple. There are several reasons we can determine this. Christ speaks of Judea, so it's given a cultural location...it's not worldwide, like you'd expect with the mark. Again, cultural references are shown with the flat rooftops, the walled city. We also know several things: if indeed such a terrible day fell on the Sabbath, travel is forbidden and that would have made it very difficult to flee the city. Common sense tells us that pregnant and nursing mothers would find fleeing difficult. And common sense also dictated that in the case of an oncoming army, people fled TO cities, not away from them. And yet historically, that's exactly what the Christians did. When the Roman army approached, they remembered Christ's warning, and fled to the hills...and Josephus confirms that the Christians were spared the horrifiying seige that followed.
Given that we can be sure that this passage is talking of the destruction of the temple...and we can be sure...the Disciples had, after all, asked when THAT temple would be destroyed, not a future one....it is a rather odd and unnatural take on the passage to suddenly throw in an understanding about the mark...physical or not.

The idea that Jesus upon the Mount of Olives was speaking of the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is a doctrine of men from the seminaries.

The Western Wall or Wailing Wall of huge stones that were part of the support for the old temple are still standing today! Jesus said not one stone will be atop another, and in Luke 21 He linked that time of destruction with the day of vengeance of Isaiah 61:2, which is the day of His second coming.

 

[Naomi25]

The idea that Jesus upon the Mount of Olives was speaking of the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is a doctrine of men from the seminaries.

The Western Wall or Wailing Wall of huge stones that were part of the support for the old temple are still standing today! Jesus said not one stone will be atop another, and in Luke 21 He linked that time of destruction with the day of vengeance of Isaiah 61:2, which is the day of His second coming.

Yes...'evil' seminaries, where they teach people to think. Ug!
Seriously. How is it that people are not aware that the Wailing Wall is a RETAINING WALL?! Does anybody know what a retaining wall is? Look it up...

 

[Davy]

Yes...'evil' seminaries, where they teach people to think. Ug!
Seriously. How is it that people are not aware that the Wailing Wall is a RETAINING WALL?! Does anybody know what a retaining wall is? Look it up...

I never said the seminaries were evil. It's just that they don't really teach Bible, they teach their particular denomination's traditional doctrine. And they are taught to stay away from any controversial Bible topic (i.e., stay on the milk). Because of this, many of their man-made doctrines are like tethers, i.e., the similar idea our Lord Jesus taught about the new wine put in old wine skins will burst because old wine skins won't allow expansion which the new wine requires (new wine = God's Truth full strength, the meat; old wine skins = men's doctrines, and milk traditions with never getting to the 'strong meat' of God's Word).

The seminaries are necessary, because their main job is to spread The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that's a good thing. But our Lord Jesus warned His disciples to beware of the leaven doctrines of the scribes and Pharisees. And that applies to those types who create confusion that exist in the seminaries also, they have crept in there too.

The still standing Western Wall (or Wailing Wall) of the old temple was built by Herod. It was a support wall.

Western Wall in Jerusalem| Tourist Israel