Christians are not under the New Covenant

[Moriah's Song]

lots of words. But they are not teh bible but simply making their opinions on the bible.

Your knowledge of scripture is better than this list of theologians who contributed to the International Bible Encyclopedia?

LITERATURE.

Besides the commentaries, such works on Old Testament Theology as those of Oehler, Schultz, A.B. Davidson, and on New Testament Theology by B. Weiss, Beyschlag, Holtzmann, W.B. Stevens, Weinel; Wendt, The Teaching of Jesus; A.B. Bruce, Paul's Conception of Christianity and The Epistle to the Hebrews; J. Denney, The Death of Christ; Du Bose, The Gospel in the Gospels, The Gospel according to Paul, High-Priesthood and Sacrifice. For the idea of mediation in Jewish religion, Oesterley, The Jewish Doctrine of Mediation; Toy, Judaism and Christianity. Much material on the Biblical doctrine may be found in such works as Dorner, System of Christian Doctrine; Ritschl, Die christliche Lehre von der Rechtfertigung und Versohnung, 3 volumes (Volumes I and III, English translation); Dale, The Atonement; McLeod Campbell, The Nature of the Atonement; F.D. Maurice, The Doctrine of Sacrifice; Moberly, Atonement and Personality; J. Scott Lidgett, The Spiritual Principle of the Atonement; G.B. Stevens, Christian Doctrine of Salvation; articles in HDB, DCG, and in this Encyclopedia on "Mediation"; "Mediator"; "Atonement"; "Messiah"; "Propitiation"; "Prophets"; "Priests"; "Ransom"; "Reconciliation"; "Sacrifice"; Salvation," etc.

 

[Moriah's Song]

All the promises of God will be fulfilled, to whomsoever they are made. What has not been fulfilled during Christ's first advent, will be fulfilled at His second advent.

Sorry, but the false rapture theory was a figment of Charles Nelson Darby in the 1800's of which he brought to the USA to promote it through the Scofield Study Bible, the Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary and others that were established to teach guppies of the new theory that had never been a doctrine of the church prior to Darby. I am not one of his guppies and never will be. I follow Christ, not a man's humanistic brain wave.

The next advent will only be on the Last Day; Judgment Day when all believers and unblievers stand before God to be judged righteous or unrighteous. Then both groups will go to their own pre-determined eternal destiny.

 

[charity]

Subject heading:- Christians are not under the New Covenant

'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which My covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My People.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,
and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD:
for they shall all know Me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.'
(Jer 31:31-34)

'For finding fault with them, He saith,
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:'
(Heb 8:8)

'And to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.'
(Heb 12:24)

* This is the testimony of Scripture regarding the New Covenant, when and to whom it will be made. That should be sufficient to show that the New Covenant is not yet in place.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[keithr]

At least show where it says the new covenant is not eternal

Why should I show that? I never said that it wasn't an eternal covenant! I believe it is an eternal covenant, just as you do. I only denied that God could not fulfill the New Covenant, because you said God could not fulfill it.

Numbers 23:19 (WEB):

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?​

 

[keithr]

There are many prophecies still yet to be fulfilled (such as Jeremiah 31, and the prochecies of Daniel).

Not true again.

What I said was correct. For example, consider just one prophecy of Daniel (the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream) - Daniel 2 (WEB):

Part of the dream:

(34) You saw until a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
(35) Then the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold were broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors. The wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them. The stone that struck the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.​

The interpretation:

(44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, nor will its sovereignty be left to another people; but it will break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever.​

So the prophecy says that God will set up a kingdom that will fill the whole earth, having first destroyed all other earthly kingdoms. This kingdom of God will last forever. The fulfillment of this prophecy clearly has not taken place yet.

Also consider Daniel 7 (WEB):

(13) “I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
(14) Dominion was given him, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away, and his kingdom that which will not be destroyed.​

This too has clearly not happened yet (e.g. Iran and Afghanistan and other nations do not serve Jesus).

 

[Moriah's Song]

“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed,

That is true but....God did "set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed." God's kingdom is the kingdom of Christ; his people, the church.

2Co 5:1...For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
​

Eternity is impossible for us humans to fully comprehend it so this is my feeble attempt to describe it....Eternity never had a beginning and will never have an end to it, yet from the time of creation to the end of the world, when the "present old earth is renewed, the stars and the sky are no more, the resurrection of the just and the unjust is complete" eternity continues onward forever."

2Pe 1:10-11...Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:24-25...Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.​

God's "kingdom" was actually started to be built with the creation of Adam in the Garden of Eden. (Eve was not created from the dust of the earth; only Adam was.)

But the final and consummate fulfilment of this prophetic Scripture you referred to in Daniel 2 came in Christ, for the fifth kingdom is said to eradicate the previous empires altogether, and to take their place. In a spiritual form, Christ's kingdom is already present, and he reigns in the hearts of believers and in his chuch. The consummation of His kingdom awais His Second coming. The "kingdom" which now exists only in a spiritual sense and not in a literal sense.

 

[keithr]

That is true but....God did "set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed." God's kingdom is the kingdom of Christ; his people, the church.

2Co 5:1...For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.​

Paul is talking about the change from human bodies to spirit being bodies - it is nothing to do with kingdoms.

When did this new kingdom of God "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" on the Earth, which we still see today?

 

[Moriah's Song]

That should be sufficient to show that the New Covenant is not yet in place.

I disagree once more.

The characteristics of the New Covenant as promised are essentially four. The New Covenant is:

• Internal, not external: written on minds and hearts (31:33).
• Intimate, not distant: “I . . . will be their God, and they shall be my people” (31:33; cf. Ex. 19:12).
• Direct, not mediated: no more Levitical priesthood (31:34).
• Cleansing, not covering: sins are blotted out and forgotten, not merely covered up (31:34).

The New Covenant was instituted in the upper room with the Lord’s Supper when Jesus said, “This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Mt. 26:28). This New Covenant was put in force with Jesus’ death for our sins on the cross.

The Epistle to the Hebrews declares Christ “the mediator of a better covenant” (8:6) and our great High Priest “after the order of Melchizedek” (5:10).

From Hebrews it seems clear that this New Covenant is now in force and is the covenant under which believers in Christ today are beneficiaries (cf. Heb. 10:16–17). Paul spoke of Christians as “able ministers of the new testament” (2 Cor. 3:6). This point is important because dispensationalists have always urgently maintained that we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14).3 We do well to emphasize, as did Paul, a sharp discontinuity here. Christ is the goal and the completion of the Law (Rom. 10:4).4

Both the Old and New Testaments see true believers as being the children of Abraham, saved in one way only—by grace through the perfect, atoning sacrifice of the Messiah of God. Therefore, there is “no difference” between Jewish and Gentile believers since we are all baptized into Christ’s body where all such ethnic differences do not exist (1 Cor. 12:13).

 

[Cassandra]

- "...and He is ther god." No, He is OUR God, not just THEIR GOD. It's ALL people's God who believe in the Savior who paid the price for our sins can legitmately called "a child of God."

Yes! and amen!!!!!!

 

[Moriah's Song]

When did this new kingdom of God "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" on the Earth, which we still see today?

Jhn 18:36...Jesus replied, "My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here."

God's Kingdom is spiritual; not literal as Darbites insist.

 

[keithr]

God's Kingdom is spiritual; not literal as Darbites insist.

Daniel's prophecy refers to a literal kingdom on the Earth, that God's kingdom will destroy. Daniel 2:39-44 (WEB):

(39) “After you, another kingdom will arise that is inferior to you; and another third kingdom of brass, which will rule over all the earth.
(40) The fourth kingdom will be strong as iron, because iron breaks in pieces and subdues all things; and as iron that crushes all these, it will break in pieces and crush.
(41) Whereas you saw the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but there will be in it of the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.
(42) As the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong, and partly broken.
(43) Whereas you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, they will mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they won’t cling to one another, even as iron does not mix with clay.
(44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, nor will its sovereignty be left to another people; but it will break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever.​

The fourth earthly kingdom is still with us - the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

As an aside, note verse 43 says "they will mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they won’t cling to one another". Some people think that this is refering to 'alien' beings (the 'they' - actually fallen angels/demons) interbreeding with humans, like in the days of Noah (Genesis 6). While there have been many reports of 'alien abductions' where sexual experimentation has been performed on the abductees, we are yet to see interbreeding from these aliens - the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled! ;)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1- "So to you then ALL Jewish people now know the Lord",...No, only the remnant of the OT Jewish believers plus the Gentile converts, and in the NT believers who recieved the Lord on the Day of Pentecost and forward (Jews and Gentiles) are those whose sins are forgiven and therefore make up the body of Christ.

Once again you retranslate SCripture!

God did not say "the remnant" but He said all Israel! That does not mean just a whole bunch out of many- but it means every single one! So you are defending your redefinition of Gods Words, I defend what God said In Jeremiah 31

2- "Israel as a people are gods people again"..."Only true Israel, God's people, composed of both Jewish and Gentile believers, have been God's people since Adam and Eve.

Once again you redefine words and retranslate and defend your translation and redefinitions! Israel as defined by God are teh children of the 12 sons of Israel- it is to this entire nation He made certain covenants with.

Spiritual Israel is the righteous Israel (aka the remnant spiritually)

I defend Gods Word- you defend your retranslation.

3- "...and He is ther god." No, He is OUR God, not just THEIR GOD. It's ALL people's God who believe in the Savior who paid the price for our sins can legitmately called "a child of God."

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God abandoned the nation of Israel and issued a bill of divorcement to them. Unless of course, according to your Israel is the church- God divorced the church.

But Gods Word as declared and written down without redefining terms says that though god has set aside Israel (for the calling out of the gentiles a people for His name) He will once again in days to come restore His attention to Israel and all Jews beforeJesus physically returns to earth, will receive their Messiah and they once again shall be His people and the Father will once again wed the nation.

I am sure you will reject this for some trumped up charge, but I found this excellent study on gods marriage, divorce and remarriage to teh nation of Israel or the Jewish people (the descendants of the 12 sons of Jacob)

Oracles of Yah

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yeah, right:cool: Like your knowledge of scripture is better than this list of theologians who contributed to the International Bible Encyclopedia?

LITERATURE.

Besides the commentaries, such works on Old Testament Theology as those of Oehler, Schultz, A.B. Davidson, and on New Testament Theology by B. Weiss, Beyschlag, Holtzmann, W.B. Stevens, Weinel; Wendt, The Teaching of Jesus; A.B. Bruce, Paul's Conception of Christianity and The Epistle to the Hebrews; J. Denney, The Death of Christ; Du Bose, The Gospel in the Gospels, The Gospel according to Paul, High-Priesthood and Sacrifice. For the idea of mediation in Jewish religion, Oesterley, The Jewish Doctrine of Mediation; Toy, Judaism and Christianity. Much material on the Biblical doctrine may be found in such works as Dorner, System of Christian Doctrine; Ritschl, Die christliche Lehre von der Rechtfertigung und Versohnung, 3 volumes (Volumes I and III, English translation); Dale, The Atonement; McLeod Campbell, The Nature of the Atonement; F.D. Maurice, The Doctrine of Sacrifice; Moberly, Atonement and Personality; J. Scott Lidgett, The Spiritual Principle of the Atonement; G.B. Stevens, Christian Doctrine of Salvation; articles in HDB, DCG, and in this Encyclopedia on "Mediation"; "Mediator"; "Atonement"; "Messiah"; "Propitiation"; "Prophets"; "Priests"; "Ransom"; "Reconciliation"; "Sacrifice"; Salvation," etc.

Well post one definition of mediator or mediation that shows by definition that someone mediates a covenant alreadsy in effect, then you may have something to stand on. Otherwise all you are doing is bloviating and writing a list of people that I bet you have not read even a few of their works.

Once again, dictionaries and lexicons and concordances all define a mediator as a go between between parties to settle a difference (in various synonymous terms)

μεσίτης
Transliteration
mesitēs μέσος (G3319)
Greek Inflections of μεσίτης μεσίτῃ — 1x
μεσίτης — 4x
μεσίτου — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: mediator (6x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
   
   
2. a medium of communication, arbitrator

Find me a definition of a mediator is one who oversees a covenant/contract/ agreement/ dispute that is already settled, agreed upon/ ratified/ in effect and we can talk.

Otherwise for you to say the New covenant is being mediated by Jesus and is already in effect is you simply redefining terms again. As well as all your scholars who would agree with you.

YOu have condemend all dispensational scholars for accepting words at face value unless the construct lets us know it is an idiom, metaphor, simile, prophtic language etc., well I suppose I could do the same for all your covenant theologians who redefine basic words to make them mean other than what they are normally understood to be.

See I was a union member for 35 years and I know well what a mediator and what mediation is. Once the contract was signed- there was no longer a need for a mediator just like the dictionary and lexicon shows.

By the way, you seem to be taking my words as I literally wotrte them. How come? Should I take your words literally or are you speaking allegorically and I should look for other definitions for the words you write other than what is normally, commonly accepted by all?

 

[Moriah's Song]

Daniel's prophecy refers to a literal kingdom on the Earth, that God's kingdom will destroy.

Dan 2:44...And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;

Let's break it down...

"Shall the God of heaven will set up a kingdom" — This can only be understood in the manner of which as the ancients understood it, of the kingdom of Christ. Accordingly, his kingdom was set up during the days of the last of these kingdoms, that is, the Roman.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Well post one definition of mediator or mediation that shows by definition that someone mediates a covenant alreadsy in effect, then you may have something to stand on.

I did so why should I wasting my time?

But here is my list of the "true Israel' that you choose to not understand the truth of these verses anyway.

But it is not as though the word of God had failed.
For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, - Rom 9:6​

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. - Hos 11:1

and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." - Mat 2:15

'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel.'" - Mat 2:6

"He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; - Mat 27:42

Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross,..." - Mar 15:32

And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, - Luk 1:16

He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, - Luk 1:54

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people, - Luk 1:68

"Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!" - Jhn 1:49

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!" - Jhn 12:13

"Men of Israel, hear these words: - Act 2:22

God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. - Act 5:31

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; - Act 9:15

You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ - Act 10:36

Of this man's posterity God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised. - Act 13:23

For to me the people of Israel are servants, - Lev 25:55

...my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt .... - Exo 7:4

...all that God had done for Moses and for Israel his people, - Exo 18:1

the LORD sent a prophet to the people of Israel; and he said to them, - Jdg 6:8​

But the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, and gave them a charge to the people of Israel and to Pharaoh king of Egypt to bring the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt. - Exo 6:13

So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, - Exo 16:6
...where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, - 1Ki 8:9

And this was so, because the people of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, - 2Ki 17:7

...I chose no city in all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house, that my name might be there, and I chose no man as prince over my people Israel; - 2Ch 6:5​

 

[keithr]

"Shall the God of heaven will set up a kingdom" — This can only be understood in the manner of which as the ancients understood it, of the kingdom of Christ. Accordingly, his kingdom was set up during the days of the last of these kingdoms, that is, the Roman.

I don't think that's how the ancient Israelites believed the kingdom would be. For example, they expected their king come to them riding on a donkey (so he was a physical man) who would then reign from Jerusalem, but there has not been, nor currently is there a human king reigning in Jerusalem. But let's bring in another prophecy (remembering that you claimed all prophecies have been fulfilled already) - Isaiah 2:2-4 (WEB):

(2) It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
(3) Many peoples shall go and say, “Come, let’s go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion the law shall go out, and Yahweh’s word from Jerusalem.
(4) He will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.​

I haven't heard of many peoples from all the nations travelling to Jerusalem to visit God's house, where God teaches them, nor of God's law and word going out from Zion in Jerusalem. I haven't seen or heard of nations beating their swords into plowshares, etc., i.e. giving up all weapons. Nations have not stopped 'lifting up sword' against other nations, and stopped learning warfare. There are still today wars in various places (e.g. in Yemen) and rumours of potential wars (e.g. Russia provoking Ukraine and Europe, Iran provoking Israel, etc.). There have certainly been many wars since Jesus' death and resurrection. This prophecy clearly hasn't been fulfilled.

 

[Moriah's Song]

There are still today wars in various places (e.g. in Yemen) and rumours of potential wars (e.g. Russia provoking Ukraine and Europe, Iran provoking Israel, etc.). There have certainly been many wars since Jesus' death and resurrection. This prophecy clearly hasn't been fulfilled.

Luk 21:7...And they asked him, "Teacher, when will this be, and what will be the sign when this is about to take place?"
Luk 21:8...And he said, "Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.
Luk 21:9...And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified; for this must first take place, but the end will not be at once."

Things to Come
Luk 21:10...Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
Luk 21:11...there will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
Luk 21:12...But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13...This will be a time for you to bear testimony.

You don't think the signs are in place today?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I did. Since you continue to put up smokescreens, why should I waste my time?

No you didn't. You offered peoples commentary, not definitions. You do know the difference don't you? Just because a bunch of allegorical covenantal theologians say a mediator mediates a covenant already effect does not make it so! This word has the same meaning universally and retranslators of the bible have no0 authority to redefine what the word mediate means. YOu are acting worse than a JW in this now!

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. - Hos 11:1

and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." - Mat 2:15

so you do not believe that Israel was in Egypt for over 400 years? But if anything this makes Jesus and not the church Israel!

'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel.'" - Mat 2:6

And this doesn't mean real Israel how?

And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, - Luk 1:16

And this doesn't mean natural Israel why?

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people, - Luk 1:68

"Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!" - Jhn 1:49

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!" - Jhn 12:13

And remember jesus came at first to be the king of Israel. all these quotes are when He was being announced As the King of Natural Israel!

But the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, and gave them a charge to the people of Israel and to Pharaoh king of Egypt to bring the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt. - Exo 6:13

So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, - Exo 16:6
...where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, - 1Ki 8:9

And this was so, because the people of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, - 2Ki 17:7

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!" - Jhn 12:13

These are the people hailing the arrival of the King of Israel the nation. Church wasn't even born yet!

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; - Act 9:15

You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ - Act 10:36

Of this man's posterity God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised. - Act 13:23

And all these refer to natural Israel as prophesied and not the church made up of Jew and Gentile!

The people He delivered and came to was both saved and unsaved Israel! the Israel of God or true Israel as yo0u call it here are the faithful remnant in all generations of Israel! So the Jews in the church today are the Israel of God!

Not one of these verses if read and understood in a normal way and not redefined- would lead one to conclude He came to all Israel and not just a select few!

"Men of Israel, hear these words: - Act 2:22

this was a crowd of unsaved Israelites! So Peter is addressing untrue Israel I guess according to the way you redefine the bible.

 

[Moriah's Song]

this was a crowd of unsaved Israelites! So Peter is addressing untrue Israel I guess according to the way you redefine the bible.

Lets just let scripture do the talking for us to see if God sees these people as being "saved or unsaved." But first lets see what Vine's Dictionary has as a definition of the word

"devout" ...
Strong's Number: g4576 Greek: sebomai
Devout: "to feel awe," whether before God or man, "to worship," is translated "devout," in Act 13:43, RV (AV, "religious"); 13:50; 17:4, 17.

(unsaved people don't "worship" God.)

Act 2:1-5...When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

V.14....But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed [the devout men], "Men of Judea...."
v.22..."Men of Israel....
v.36..."Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuedly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
v.37....Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said..."Brethren, what shall we do?....
v.38....Peter said to the [devout men of Israel and Judea], "Repent....for your sins;
​

Those "devout Jews" were told to repent of their sin for crucifying the Messiah they had longed to see.
Do you still want to cling to that along with that in regards to my previous post?

 

[keithr]

You don't think the signs are in place today?

More to the point, you seem at last to be acknowledging that not all Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled at Jesus' first advent, so you were wrong to declare in post #772 that my statement of "There are many prophecies still yet to be fulfilled" was not true.

The Isaiah 2 prophecy says, "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". You quote Jesus saying that in the future ""Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom", confirming that the Isaiah prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. There's no need to apologise for your mistake - you're welcome.