Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[Davidpt]

We also don't know when the 'great trib ends', or when it starts

Jesus does tell us to watch for the signs.

Except we do know when it starts and ends. It begins with the AOD. It ends with the beginning of the day of the Lord. Some interpreters insist the AOD was involving the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, except they all can't agree with each other what that AOD looked like, which then raises a red flag. Why can't they all agree with each other if it's true that the AOD was fulfilled 2000 ago? It's not like it should still be a mystery as to what it looked like if it was already fulfilled.

Plus it makes Jesus a liar in Matthew 24:21 if that was fulfilled 2000 years ago but that Daniel 12:1 is meaning some 2000 years later. Look at the following side by side then imagine the former preceding the latter rather than both involving the same time period.

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

I thought Jesus said this time of trouble can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness? Where He then said since the beginning of the world(kosmos not ge)

But then Daniel 12:1 says--such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. Why wouldn't, since there was a nation not be connected with the beginning of the world(kosmos)?

Either Jesus is lying to us or we are being lied to in Daniel 12:1. Because Jesus already said this---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time. But He didn't stop there. He also said this---no, nor ever shall be---which then makes it impossible that Matthew 24:21 is meaning 2000 years ago and Daniel 12:1 is meaning 2000 years later.

What if Jesus had said this instead?

such as was not since there was a nation to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time(Daniel 12:1)

Would one still be arguing that these are not involving the same era of time?

Or maybe like this? Where Daniel 12:1 said what Jesus said.

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since the beginning of the world even to that same time

The point being, what exactly is the difference between--since the beginning of the world(kosmos)---and this---since there was a nation? Even if the beginning of this world precedes the beginning of a nation, still we're talking about the first cpl of thousand years of human history no matter how you look at it. And that Jesus said that nothing in the future will equal nor surpass this great tribulation in greatness. But how can that literally be true if this happens in the future and is not meaning Matthew 24:21---such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time?

 

[Davidpt]

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Sign enough for you?

It certainly was for the Judaean Christians, who heeded Jesus' warning, and fled, and survived.

Thankfully, they were all far smarter than any dispensational futurist.


Or do you think that Jesus was still talking to Himself?

That passage supports what happened in the first century leading up to 70 AD. Matthew 24:15-21 does not support that. And the reason why is because Daniel 12:1-2 does not support that. A lot of interpreters come to conclusions without actually thinking through it first. And then when you try and show them that by showing what it's like to think through some of these things first, such as post #261, it's usually too late at this point. They have already been brainwashed and everyone knows it's next to impossible to reason with anyone brainwashed.

 

[MA2444]

We also don't know when the 'great trib ends', or when it starts

Jesus does tell us to watch for the signs.

It sounds like you need to reread the book of Daniel!

 

[Scott Downey]

It sounds like you need to reread the book of Daniel!

Well, we are warned that we cannot know the times and seasons established by God
So those are assumptions, any times people predict according to what they think scripture implies.

What did Jesus say? Who is anyone to go against what Christ clearly says?
Why be presumptuous?
It looks like I am on firm ground here.

Acts 1
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If there is not one stone upon another as you claim,

I'm not just claiming that. It's a fact that the temple buildings are no longer there and haven't been for a long time.

what was the sign that occurred?

Luke 21
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

The sign relates to their second question about His coming and the end of the age, not to their first question about the destruction of the temple buildings.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have suspected that perhaps he is some sort of control the narrative Bot, lol. Because that's patter every time. He ignores others points or flippantly dismisses them then lays out a concoction of inane ideas which have not been thought through and demands answers to his crap! I don't think he has ever admitted he wrong about anything or even slightly demonstrated that he is teachable. He is not. ???

LOL. What a child you are. You guys are completely incapable of backing up your many unfounded opinions and I expose that. Then you get upset about it when you're not able to refute my arguments just like children do.

If I'm not teachable then how did I go from being a Premil to an Amil from reading posts on a forum like this one many years ago (not this one, but some other one that doesn't exist anymore).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So why'd you asl about it?

Ask about what? I addressed your argument. I didn't ask about anything.

Perhaps but when I responded and made my own valid point you were mute about it.

LOL. So, it's okay for you to just ignore my point and not address it, but you expect me to address yours? Hilarious. What is the point you made that I was mute about. I will address any point you make. You can say a lot of things about me and I don't care if you do, but what you can't say is that I just ignore any points that are made. I don't do that. Do I ever miss any? Probably.

So you're trying to drive the narrative and teach me your brand of (confusion) understanding and I aint biting.

Grow up already. I was having an adult discussion where one person makes their points and then the other person addresses those and makes their own points which the other person then addresses and so on. But, you're trying to tell me that you can just ignore my points while expecting me to address yours. You clearly don't understand how these discussions are supposed to work.

I used to think and believe like you do, boy that was a long time ago.

You aren't even accurately describing me, so I highly doubt that.

But there are myriads of valid points I could make that proves that the rapture is not the same coming as the day of the Lord after the tribulation.

But, you just don't feel like it? I have yet to see once convincing point that comes anywhere near proving a pre-trib rapture. It's one of the weakest end times doctrines I've ever seen. I sometimes wonder why I even bother debating a doctrine like that which has no scriptural support whatsoever.

When I've wrote those things before you never would address them at all.

That's a lie. I address more points that people make than anyone. Just give me one of these things that I supposedly wouldn't address and let's address it now. I'm not afraid to address anything.

Then you start preaching your confusion again. Post-trib rapture creates contradictions in a Lot of scripture.

No, it does not. Not even close.

Like for instance we know from scripture plainly that 1260 days after a 7 year peace deal is signed in Israel that the desolation of abomination will occur and when that happens then exactly 1260 days after that Jesus will return.

We know no such thing from scripture. You think just making claims like that is proof of something? There is no 7 year peace deal taught in scripture. So, you're off the rails already with that false idea. Anything you try to relate to that is based on a false premise.

But the rapture no one knows the day or hour it will come. That's a huge cintradiction to post-trib.

Why is that? You just make claims and don't even explain why you're making them. You think that's convincing?

But you wont address that stuff, so uh, good luck with that.

That's a total lie. I will address it all you want. First, tell me why no one knowing the day or hour of the rapture is a problem for post-trib and then we can go from there. I don't see it as a problem for post-trib at all. But, we probably don't have the same understanding of what the "trib" of "post-trib" or "pre-trib" entails, so not being on the same page about that makes this very hard to discuss.

 

[covenantee]

That passage supports what happened in the first century leading up to 70 AD. Matthew 24:15-21 does not support that.

Matthew 24:15-21 supports that. The flight of the Judaean Christians confirms it.

 

[Davidpt]

So, it's okay for you to just ignore my point and not address it, but you expect me to address yours? Hilarious. What is the point you made thta I was mute about. I will address any point you make. You can say a lot of things about me and I don't care if you do, but what you can't say is that I just ignore any points that are made. I don't do that. Do I ever miss any? Probably.

Speaking for myself I have zero dispute with any of this. This describes you to a T and that I truly wish I could be more like you in that regard. I probably could be if we were having these conversations orally face to face.

I think I have told you in that past that when I type I only using one finger to do that with. And it's embarrassing to even admit that. Yet it is what it is. Imagine if that was the way you did it as well. Do you then think you could be posting in the same manner you do, still addressing all points? IOW, would having to type with only one finger hinder you in any way? One reason I type with one finger is because I'm less apt to make as many typos that way. Not to mention, arthritis runs in my family.

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:15-21 supports that. The flight of the Judaean Christians confirms it.

Jesus could be meaning that spiritually, meaning He is warning about falling away, and that He is using first century Jewish language to make His point. After all, if the AOD is involving 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and the 42 month reign of the beast like I take it be involving, it's not like none of that involves falling away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Except we do know when it starts and ends. It begins with the AOD. It ends with the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Oh, really? So, what is the AOD exactly then? I'm sure you can tell us what it is with extreme precision so that we will know for sure when the great tribulation has started when we see it.

Beyond that, I think what he was saying is that we can't know now when that time period starts and ends. I don't think he was talking about what events would tell us when it has begun and when it has ended.

Some interpreters insist the AOD was involving the 2nd temple before it was destroyed,

That is obvious to those who can see that Luke 21:20-24 is parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20.

except they all can't agree with each other what that AOD looked like, which then raises a red flag.

Do all of you futurists agree on what exactly the AOD is and what it will look like? Hardly! So, can I say that raises a red flag about the futurist view of that?

Why can't they all agree with each other if it's true that the AOD was fulfilled 2000 ago? It's not like it should still be a mystery as to what it looked like if it was already fulfilled.

What we agree on is that it related to the time when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem since Luke's record of what Jesus said about the abomination of desolation related to armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Plus it makes Jesus a liar in Matthew 24:21 if that was fulfilled 2000 years ago but that Daniel 12:1 is meaning some 2000 years later. Look at the following side by side then imagine the former preceding the latter rather than both involving the same time period.

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

I thought Jesus said this time of trouble can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness? Where He then said since the beginning of the world(kosmos not ge)

Where are you seeing anything in either verse about a time of trouble not being equaled or surpassed in greatness? Looks like you're adding something to the text there. I don't see that there in either verse. The fact is that neither verse gives us the exact context of how exactly the time of tribulation that each mentions is different from anything that has happened before. You assume they say that the time of tribulation "can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness", yet it does not say that in the text. Why do you act as if the text itself in either verse says that?

It's very interesting that you insist that Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 must be about the same event while you deny that Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-12 are about the same event despite both referring to the books being opened for judgment. Why do you not use the same kind of logic when interpreting those two passages that you use when interpreting Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21? Why are you never consistent in your approach to interpreting scripture?

But then Daniel 12:1 says--such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. Why wouldn't, since there was a nation not be connected with the beginning of the world(kosmos)?

Either Jesus is lying to us or we are being lied to in Daniel 12:1. Because Jesus already said this---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time. But He didn't stop there. He also said this---no, nor ever shall be---which then makes it impossible that Matthew 24:21 is meaning 2000 years ago and Daniel 12:1 is meaning 2000 years later.

The two events have different contexts. The Daniel 12:1-2 event is global while the Matthew 24:15-21 event is not, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus only said that those in Judea needed to flee, not everyone in the world.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus could be meaning that spiritually, meaning He is warning about falling away, and that He is using first century Jewish language to make His point. After all, if the AOD is involving 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and the 42 month reign of the beast like I take it be involving, it's not like none of that involves falling away.

While the Judaean Christians were certainly spiritual, their flight was indisputably physical.

The AOD was the Roman armies (Luke 21:20). It had no connection with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and the 42 month reign of the beast.

 

[Scott Downey]

Except we do know when it starts and ends. It begins with the AOD. It ends with the beginning of the day of the Lord. Some interpreters insist the AOD was involving the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, except they all can't agree with each other what that AOD looked like, which then raises a red flag. Why can't they all agree with each other if it's true that the AOD was fulfilled 2000 ago? It's not like it should still be a mystery as to what it looked like if it was already fulfilled.

Plus it makes Jesus a liar in Matthew 24:21 if that was fulfilled 2000 years ago but that Daniel 12:1 is meaning some 2000 years later. Look at the following side by side then imagine the former preceding the latter rather than both involving the same time period.

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

I thought Jesus said this time of trouble can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness? Where He then said since the beginning of the world(kosmos not ge)

But then Daniel 12:1 says--such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. Why wouldn't, since there was a nation not be connected with the beginning of the world(kosmos)?

Either Jesus is lying to us or we are being lied to in Daniel 12:1. Because Jesus already said this---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time. But He didn't stop there. He also said this---no, nor ever shall be---which then makes it impossible that Matthew 24:21 is meaning 2000 years ago and Daniel 12:1 is meaning 2000 years later.

What if Jesus had said this instead?

such as was not since there was a nation to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time(Daniel 12:1)

Would one still be arguing that these are not involving the same era of time?

Or maybe like this? Where Daniel 12:1 said what Jesus said.

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
such as never was since the beginning of the world even to that same time

The point being, what exactly is the difference between--since the beginning of the world(kosmos)---and this---since there was a nation? Even if the beginning of this world precedes the beginning of a nation, still we're talking about the first cpl of thousand years of human history no matter how you look at it. And that Jesus said that nothing in the future will equal nor surpass this great tribulation in greatness. But how can that literally be true if this happens in the future and is not meaning Matthew 24:21---such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time?

Ok, but you dont know when, give me your year and day.

 

[Scott Downey]

Harold Camping apparently knew (nothing)

Loading…

www.chron.com

ALAMEDA, Calif. -- The man who said the world was going to end appeared at his front door in Alameda a day later, very much alive but not so well.
"It has been a really tough weekend," said Harold Camping, the 89-year-old fundamentalist radio preacher who convinced hundreds of his followers that the rapture would occur on Saturday at 6 p.m.
Massive earthquakes would strike, he said. Believers would ascend to heaven and the rest would be left to wander a godforsaken planet until Oct. 21, when Camping promised a fiery end to the world.
But on Sunday, almost 18 hours after he thought he'd be in heaven, there was Camping, "flabbergasted" in Alameda, wearing tan slacks, a tucked-in polo shirt and a light jacket.
Birds chirped. A gentle breeze blew. Across the street, neighbors focused on their yard work and the latest neighborhood gossip.
"I'm looking for answers," Camping said, adding that meant frequent prayer and consultations with friends.
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"But now I have nothing else to say," he said, closing the door to his home. "I'll be back to work Monday and will say more then."

************
He bears his shame as the mark of a false prophet

 

[Scott Downey]

OK people, tell me the year and month the great tribulation starts, or the year and month it ends, and what year and what day does Christ return

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Speaking for myself I have zero dispute with any of this. This describes you to a T and that I truly wish I could be more like you in that regard. I probably could be if we were having these conversations orally face to face.

Well, you don't see me complaining about you ignoring my points and you're not complaining about that with me, so it's not an issue as far as you and I are concerned.

But, in terms of him (MA2444) and I are concerned, I first made the point that we can see that Jesus will have not come as a thief yet as of the time of the sixth vial because it shows Him there still saying He is coming as a thief, implying that he will not have come yet as a thief at that point. That is very strong evidence against pre-trib. But, MA2444 did not address that point at all. He says he made some point that I supposedly didn't address, but that's not how it works. He should address what I said first before making some other point without addressing my point first. That's how adult discussions work. If he was unsure how to respond to that and had to think about it then he could have just said that. That's what you do sometimes and that's fine. But, instead, he didn't address it at all.

I think I have told you in that past that when I type I only using one finger to do that with. And it's embarrassing to even admit that. Yet it is what it is.

Don't be embarrassed. Who cares? Just do what you can do.

Imagine if that was the way you did it as well. Do you then think you could be posting in the same manner you do, still addressing all points?

No, not at all. I probably wouldn't even bother posting on here at all in that case, honestly. It would just be too much trouble. I'd try to get some kind of voice recognition software that I could use, if possible. Or I'd take an online typing class. Is that something you have ever tried?

IOW, would having to type with only one finger hinder you in any way? One reason I type with one finger is because I'm less apt to make as many typos that way. Not to mention, arthritis runs in my family.

Ah. So, there's probably nothing you can do about that. Why be embarrassed when there's nothing you can do about it? Just do the best you can and I personally don't have any expectations of how fast you respond or that you respond to literally every point I make or anything like that.

 

[covenantee]

OK people, tell me the year and month the great tribulation starts, or the year and month it ends

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Apr. 14-Sept. 8 70 CE

what year and what day does Christ return

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[The Light]

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Sign enough for you?

The sign relates to their second question about His coming and the end of the age, not to their first question about the destruction of the temple buildings.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

[The Light]

I've answered your previous question. Before we proceed, how about you answer post 244. Deal?

Done. See above. Your turn.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sign relates to their second question about His coming and the end of the age, not to their first question about the destruction of the temple buildings.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

You just learned that from me. I guess maybe you are teachable, after all.

Here is where Jesus referenced that sign:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.