Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[The Light]

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. But Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes, within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero “drove a dagger into his throat.” Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and “thrusting his thumb into the mouth”, carried the horrid trophy about. Otho “stabbed himself” in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then “dragged by a hook into the Tiber.” We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these “Disturbances in Germany”, “commotions in Africa”, “commotions in Thrace”, “insurrections in Gaul”, “intrigues among the Parthians”, “the war in Britain”, “war in Armenia.”

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor’s armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: “See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet.” The word “end” that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression “end of the world.” (See footnote on page 59). As Barnes says, the end here referred to is “the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

Sometimes I just have to chuckle.

The beginning of sorrows are the 1st 4 seals. The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest. The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

None of this has happened.

 

[The Light]

Still one stone upon another? No, that is definitely not true. The temple is not there in Jerusalem at all anymore. What Jesus said would happen to the temple buildings occurred in 70 AD just as He said it would. They were destroyed. Which is something we should celebrate (Jesus knowing the future and His prophecy coming true), but instead you deny it. He talked both about what would happen locally in and around Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD and He talked about what would happen in the future related to His second coming at the ed of the age. Both futurists like yourself and preterists are wrong i thinking that the Olivet Discourse is all either only about the future or only about the past.

If there is not one stone upon another as you claim, what was the sign that occurred?

Luke 21
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

 

[covenantee]

Sometimes I just have to chuckle.

The beginning of sorrows are the 1st 4 seals. The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest. The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

None of this has happened.

Yes, history hasn't happened.

Dispenonsense on parade.

 

[covenantee]

If there is not one stone upon another as you claim, what was the sign that occurred?

Luke 21
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Sign enough for you?

It certainly was for the Judaean Christians, who heeded Jesus' warning, and fled, and survived.

Thankfully, they were all far smarter than any dispensational futurist.


Or do you think that Jesus was still talking to Himself?

 

[ewq1938]

Oh you mean the ones in Abrahams Bosom, the pre Christ believers and unbelievers.

No, I'm asking what happened and what will happen to all the Jews who were not believers in Christ before the second coming happens.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't know if that makes him nuts, but I do fully agree He went to sheol for three days and took captive the captives there. But not to the portion involving torments. He didn't go there and be subject to being tormented. As long as you're not meaning that section, I still fully agree with you.

Hell (the place of the dead) is divided into different areas. There is fiery torments for the unbelieving wicked, Tartarus like the lowest hell where the fallen angels went who sinned against God in the Nephilim transgression before the flood, and there was a place called 'Abraham's bosom, where the OT saints went and it was a pleasant place where the dead received good things, and I suppose ministered to by angels. Christ went to the good place in hell, hades, (sheol). In another word, Paradise was that place, also called Eden.

Jesus said the day He died He would be in Paradise. Which is Eden.

At His ascension, Christ took Paradise in Hell, Hades (sheol) into Heaven with Him, and everyone in Paradise was along for the ride.

I speculate Eden became Paradise and becomes part of Sheol (Hell, Hades) at the time of the great flood of Noah and was known as Paradise of God.

I also believe Adam and Eve, Enoch, and all the OT saints, patriarchs at death went to Paradise, as none could enter heaven until Christ went back into heaven. Which begs the question, at their death, did God return them to Eden? Interesting to think about.
I do not believe Adam and Eve went to fiery torments, They went to the same good place as did Abel and Seth's line.
And Enoch walked with God, and God took him, and God would not have taken Enoch to torments, same as Noah.
Paradise was still a separation from God for the dead, and it was a temporary holding place, a captivity in death, it was not eternal life with God in heaven, as only in Christ can we have eternal life. Neither side was free, fiery torments or Paradise, they were each captive to the place where they went in death, with a giant gulf of separation between them. But each side could see to the other side and even speak. Imagine such an experience.
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John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [a]who is in heaven.

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We know Christ at His death descended into Hell, so at this time Paradise was down there not in Heaven.

Luke 23

42 Then he said [a]to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus Dies on the Cross​

44 Now it [b]was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

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2 Cor 14

3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

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And the reference to Eden and Paradise now in Heaven

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

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Christ at His death went to Hades (Hell), The good side, Paradise was a part of Hades Hell), Abraham's bosom, where God prepared a place for HIs saints in death to receive loving care, but it was not heaven.

Acts 2

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your nuts it says it right in scripture. Jesus went to sheol for three days and took captive the captives there. Then He resurrected Sunday morning.

I never said that Jesus didn't set them free and bring them to paradise (third heaven). I'm saying that it's possible that the angels were involved in that event. Just because it doesn't specifically that doesn't mean that can't be the case. Regardless, that event has nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever, so there's no point in comparing the two events.

You are free to believe whatever it is that you want to believe. But I'll not debate your interpretation with you. Sorry.

You know that I made a valid point regarding the timing of Jesus coming as a thief. We can see in Revelation 16:12-16 that He will not have come a s a thief yet as of the time of the sixth vial. No wonder you don't want to debate that. You know that you can't because you know Him not coming as a thief yet as of the time of the sixth vial makes pre-trib impossible. You are the one who just believes whatever you want. I believe what is taught in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know if that makes him nuts, but I do fully agree He went to sheol for three days and took captive the captives there. But not to the portion involving torments. He didn't go there and be subject to being tormented. As long as you're not meaning that section, I still fully agree with you.

I never even said that Jesus didn't set the captives frees, so he's saying I'm nuts for nothing. It's typical of these immature pre-tribbers to make things personal like that for no good reason. My point was that the angels could have been involved in setting the captives free for all we know. He was trying to make the point that since Jesus alone set the captives free than that is evidence that Jesus alone will gather His people at the rapture without any involvement of angels. I think that is a weak argument.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are the type to have quick answers for everything. Which then tells me you don't even take the time to consider something first.

Total nonsense. If I seem to have quick answers it's only because I've thought about whatever the topic is a good amount before. You don't know me at all, obviously.

You have your theology all mapped out apparently, nothing to rethink, nothing to revise.

LOL. Do you have nothing but nonsensical comments like this to offer? I have given my theology a ton of thought for many years. But, you think I should still be completely unsure of what I believe? Don't expect me to be like you by never feeling sure about anything you believe. Your theology should be more steady by now after all these years. It doesn't mean we have nothing to learn, but you act as if you are unsure about anything. How long will it take before you can feel like you are confident aobu anything you believe? Another 20 years? Good grief. You get offended whenever you see someone who is confident about what they believe, which is ridiculous.

That's not the way my mind operates. Sometimes we need to stand back for a moment and truly consider what someone else proposes.

Who says I don't do that? What I said has nothing to do with this. You didn't make it clear that you were actually responding to what someone lse had said and not to what I had said. Since your reply was direclty to me, I assumed you were talking about what I had said in the post you replied to. Which is a natural thing to assume. But, here you are tryuing to turn it around on me as if I did something wrong. No, you should have been more clear that you were making comments about what someone else had said rather than addressing what I had said in the post you were replying to.

Obviously, none of us want to be wrong about anything, yet we all can't be right if we are all coming to different conclusions about the the same subject, whatever that subject might be at the time.

Obviously.

And besides, I clearly told you in that post I need more time to think about what you said, therefore, not having a quick answer for everything like you typically do.

Yes, you said that after I was replying to things you had said previously. I guess from now on when you reply to me I need to read your entire post first before responding to anything. That's not what I normally do, so I'll have to get used to that. I normally read paragraph or so and then respond and then I continue reading and respond and so on. But, I guess I can't do that when responding to you.

I haven't had time to reflect on it further yet. I have had my mind and time occupied with other things. I'm not exactly young any more. When I was younger I had better focus and could focus on numerous things at a time. Not so easy anymore now that I'm getting older. Or if getting older doesn't explain it, maybe I have some medical conditions that might explain it, except I never go to a doctor anymore in order to find out?

All I ask is that if you are responding to me, but your commetns actually apply to something someone else had said, then please make that clear. I think that's a reasonable request. I don't care how long you take to respond to what I said. Take your time.

 

[The Light]

Yes, history hasn't happened.

Dispenonsense on parade.

So you think the Day of the Lord has happened?

 

[covenantee]

So you think the Day of the Lord has happened?

I see no "day of the Lord" expression in the Olivet discourse.

 

[MA2444]

I never said that Jesus didn't set them free and bring them to paradise (third heaven). I'm saying that it's possible that the angels were involved in that event. Just because it doesn't specifically that doesn't mean that can't be the case. Regardless, that event has nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever, so there's no point in comparing the two events.

So why'd you asl about it?

You know that I made a valid point regarding the timing of Jesus coming as a thief. We can see in Revelation 16:12-16 that He will not have come a s a thief yet as of the time of the sixth vial. No wonder you don't want to debate that. You know that you can't because you know Him not coming as a thief yet as of the time of the sixth vial makes pre-trib impossible. You are the one who just believes whatever you want. I believe what is taught in scripture.

Perhaps but when I responded and made my own valid point you were mute about it. So you're trying to drive the narrative and teach me your brand of (confusion) understanding and I aint biting.

I used to think and believe like you do, boy that was a long time ago. But there are myriads of valid points I could make that proves that the rapture is not the same coming as the day of the Lord after the tribulation. When I've wrote those things before you never would address them at all. Then you start preaching your confusion again. Post-trib rapture creates contradictions in a Lot of scripture.

Like for instance we know from scripture plainly that 1260 days after a 7 year peace deal is signed in Israel that the desolation of abomination will occur and when that happens then exactly 1260 days after that Jesus will return.

But the rapture no one knows the day or hour it will come. That's a huge cintradiction to post-trib. But you wont address that stuff, so uh, good luck with that.

 

[The Light]

I see no "day of the Lord" expression in the Olivet discourse.

I know. That's what is said.

 

[MA2444]

You are the type to have quick answers for everything. Which then tells me you don't even take the time to consider something first. You have your theology all mapped out apparently, nothing to rethink, nothing to revise. That's not the way my mind operates. Sometimes we need to stand back for a moment and truly consider what someone else proposes. Obviously, none of us want to be wrong about anything, yet we all can't be right if we are all coming to different conclusions about the the same subject, whatever that subject might be at the time.

And besides, I clearly told you in that post I need more time to think about what you said, therefore, not having a quick answer for everything like you typically do. I haven't had time to reflect on it further yet. I have had my mind and time occupied with other things. I'm not exactly young any more. When I was younger I had better focus and could focus on numerous things at a time. Not so easy anymore now that I'm getting older. Or if getting older doesn't explain it, maybe I have some medical conditions that might explain it, except I never go to a doctor anymore in order to find out?

I have suspected that perhaps he is some sort of control the narrative Bot, lol. Because that's patter every time. He ignores others points or flippantly dismisses them then lays out a concoction of inane ideas which have not been thought through and demands answers to his crap! I don't think he has ever admitted he wrong about anything or even slightly demonstrated that he is teachable. He is not. ???

 

[covenantee]

I know. That's what is said.

Huh?

 

[The Light]

Like for instance we know from scripture plainly that 1260 days after a 7 year peace deal is signed in Israel that the desolation of abomination will occur and when that happens then exactly 1260 days after that Jesus will return.

I don't believe it is a peace treaty with Israel. It is a covenant with many.

 

[The Light]

Huh?

You are claiming that the great tribulation in Matthew 24 is the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred in 70 AD. Did Jesus show up immediately after this tribulation? Has the Day of the Lord occurred?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[MA2444]

I don't believe it is a peace treaty with Israel. It is a covenant with many.

I'll buy that, they have lots of enemies in the region. Besides, I certainly not have reviewed the Contract or anything like that, so how would I know who all will be on it? Lol.

 

[covenantee]

You are claiming that the great tribulation in Matthew 24 is the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred in 70 AD. Did Jesus show up immediately after this tribulation? Has the Day of the Lord occurred?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I've answered your previous question. Before we proceed, how about you answer post 244. Deal?

 

[Scott Downey]

So why'd you asl about it?



Perhaps but when I responded and made my own valid point you were mute about it. So you're trying to drive the narrative and teach me your brand of (confusion) understanding and I aint biting.

I used to think and believe like you do, boy that was a long time ago. But there are myriads of valid points I could make that proves that the rapture is not the same coming as the day of the Lord after the tribulation. When I've wrote those things before you never would address them at all. Then you start preaching your confusion again. Post-trib rapture creates contradictions in a Lot of scripture.

Like for instance we know from scripture plainly that 1260 days after a 7 year peace deal is signed in Israel that the desolation of abomination will occur and when that happens then exactly 1260 days after that Jesus will return.

But the rapture no one knows the day or hour it will come. That's a huge cintradiction to post-trib. But you wont address that stuff, so uh, good luck with that.

We also don't know when the 'great trib ends', or when it starts

Jesus does tell us to watch for the signs.