Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[Davidpt]

In Ezekiel 47:12 it talks about the tree of life in Revelation 22:2. In Ezekiel 47:11 it says there are miry places that shall not be healed. Where are the miry places that shall not be healed in the NHNE?

Apparently, some expect us to believe that what Revelation 22:2 is involving is not what Ezekiel 47:11 is involving. Here's the verse right after verse 11.

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

In order for the fruit thereof to not be consumed it obviously involves it existing in an age that never ends. Hmmm...I wonder if Revelation 22:2 involves an age such as that?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Here is something else to consider. This verse says there shall be no more death.

Ezekiel 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

What about this passage, though? One is to believe they just catch these fish for the sport of it then cast them back into the great sea? Obviously, if they are catching them they are catching them to eat. In order to be eaten the fish obviously have to die first.
But I thought Revelation 21:4 indicates there is no more death? No more death where, that should be real the question?

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


This provides the answer. This great sea in question would obviously already be in the earth before the new Jerusalem arrives, though. Therefore, would be something outside of the NJ, not within it.

IOW, there is more to some of these things than meets the eye.

 

[grafted branch]

Apparently, some expect us to believe that what Revelation 22:2 is involving is not what Ezekiel 47:11 is involving. Here's the verse right after verse 11.

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

In order for the fruit thereof to not be consumed it obviously involves it existing in an age that never ends. Hmmm...I wonder if Revelation 22:2 involves an age such as that?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Here is something else to consider. This verse says there shall be no more death.

Ezekiel 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

What about this passage, though? One is to believe they just catch these fish for the sport of it then cast them back into the great sea? Obviously, if they are catching them they are catching them to eat. In order to be eaten the fish obviously have to die first.
But I thought Revelation 21:4 indicates there is no more death? No more death where, that should be real the question?

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


This provides the answer. This great sea in question would obviously already be in the earth before the new Jerusalem arrives, though. Therefore, would be something outside of the NJ, not within it.

IOW, there is more to some of these things than meets the eye.

Here’s another problem that needs to be resolved if there is no literal sea in NHNE.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Since God saw that the sea was good and the Father gives good things to those who ask, we would have to conclude nobody in NHNE asks for a sea. That doesn’t seem likely considering how many people currently enjoy the sea and its beaches.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes there will... be a "thousand years" reign over the nations by Christ Jesus and His faithful elect starting on the day of His future coming. The thousand years of Rev.20 is meant literally.

According to a natural and carnal-minded Christian.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The 1,000 years are not literal.

 

[ewq1938]

There won't be a time for so-called 7 years of great tribulation or a literal 1,000-year millennial kingdom after the Second Coming.

At least they were partially right. You got each one wrong.

 

[ewq1938]

According to a natural and carnal-minded Christian.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The 1,000 years are not literal.

According to a natural and carnal-minded Christian.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The 1,000 years are not literally happening now and for almost 2000 years.


Spiritual discernment would never make anyone think this evil world is the Millennium.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The 1,000 years are not literally happening now and for almost 2000 years.

That is why you lacks spiritiual discernment on numbers in the book of Revelation. The number 2, the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 3.5 days, one hour, 1,000, 144,000 etc. all have spiritual signification. Not literal numbers that you count with calendar.

Spiritual discernment would never make anyone think this evil world is the Millennium.

It is not about the evil world. It is about bringing people out among the nations to Christ's kingdom (which is now a millennial kingdom) through the preaching of Gospel. The 1,000 years, means the fullness of whatever is in view. In other words, the Millennial Kingdom will be here as long as all people are being sealed by Christ then the end comes. You got the timing all wrong, thinking its all about future just because you have not yet see a literal kingdom or some 1,000 literal years in the future. Silly you.

 

[ewq1938]

That is why you lacks spiritiual discernment on numbers in the book of Revelation. The number 2, the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 3.5 days, one hour, 1,000, 144,000 etc. all have spiritual signification. Not literal numbers that you count with calendar.

All numbers are literal in Rev. BTW 1290 and 1335 aren't in Rev.

The 1,000 years, means the fullness of whatever is in view

No, it is the length of a certain rule and prison sentence. Symbolizing it rips out it's real meaning and supplants a new one. That's the worst thing to do to anything in scripture.

. In other words, the Millennial Kingdom will be here as long as all people are being sealed by Christ then the end comes.

lol, no. It has a specific beginning and ending. It is fixed and cannot be made longer. This is very much like adding to scripture, but adding to the length of a time period.

Silly you.

No, it's silly YOU.

 

[TribulationSigns]

All numbers are literal in Rev. BTW 1290 and 1335 aren't in Rev.

The number 1,290 and 1,335 days in Daniel are spiritual, too! LOL

No, it is the length of a certain rule and prison sentence. Symbolizing it rips out it's real meaning and supplants a new one. That's the worst thing to do to anything in scripture.

Certain rule? Prison sentence? LOL. No, it is a spiritual length of time known to God. Just as He see 144,000 as 144,000 literal men but has spiritual signification for all Spiritual Jews in Christ from the Old and New Testament, (ie. all the spiritual tribes of Israel IN CHRIST!), not literal tribes of Israel in the Middle East! You are as blind as the Pharisees and Scribes because they only think about literal kingdom, literal throne, literal Jews, literal kingdom, and literal numbers to figure out with calendar.

Educate yourself on 144,000, if you have spiritual ears to hear.

AN EXPOSITION OF REVELATION CHAPTER 7 - 144,000​

lol, no. It has a specific beginning and ending. It is fixed and cannot be made longer. This is very much like adding to scripture, but adding to the length of a time period.

You have no clues.

No, it's silly YOU.

The Lord Judges who is foolish and I am comfortable with that.

 

[Scott Downey]

The millennial reign of 1000 years on earth with raptured bodily glorified Christians like angelic warriors ruling over unsaved nations and with a rebuilt temple serving up bloody animal sacrifices to God and people getting saved, married and having kids in the flesh of the future kingdom of God down here on this old earth is about as carnally minded of doctrines as it gets.

 

[Scott Downey]

No unbelieving unsaved survivors! God destroyed them all. Remember Noah and Lot

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Mat 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[MA2444]

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When was then?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Prior to 70 AD, the Judaean Christians remembered Jesus' warning, recognized that when was then, fled into the mountains when they saw the holy city Jerusalem being encircled by the abomination of desolation (the Roman armies (Luke 21:20)), and escaped the great tribulation which then ensued in 70 AD.

Don't flunk your Bible history course.

Nah, with all due respect Brother, you arent paying enough attention to the details in Matthew 24 and when you do that it's very easy to roll all of these events into one incident.

The disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and He answered all 3 of them and then, He kept talking and added a lot of stuff about the rapture. Can you tell me in which verse Jesus changed the subject? He answered all 3 questions, and then began adding things...in which verse. If you can tell me the verse, then I can explain it to you.

It's in the details Brother.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

Keep omitting scripture and calling the body of Christ names.
Look at how far it takes you from Jesus.
Of course you will miss the rapture.
Anyone can see that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No unbelieving unsaved survivors! God destroyed them all. Remember Noah and Lot

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Mat 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Please re read it.
It says "one taken, one left."
It is your doctrine, not the bible, that has the world destroyed at the rapture.
The bible testifies overwhelmingly against what men have taught you.

 

[Davidpt]

No unbelieving unsaved survivors! God destroyed them all. Remember Noah and Lot

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Mat 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Are you then wanting us to believe that during Lot's day every single sinner on the planet was wiped out when God rained down fire from heaven on a particular region on the planet? That this somehow wiped out sinners everywhere on the planet, even sinners not in that same region at the time?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I Thess 4 is about the second appearing of the Lord, not the third. There is no third appearing, no secret second coming.
This second appearing is also the Resurrection on the Last Day and the Day of Judgment, as the dead Rise up.
You do understand Jesus taught the Last Day is when He raises up the dead, at His appearing, and with His kingdom established in the earth, Christ judges the living and the dead

2 Timothy 4

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


1 Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Lol
You can not tell the difference in the rapture and the GWTJ. ????

YOU posted 2 separate events.

When are the dead judged?
The RAPTURE only has the dead in Christ resurrected.
You need more study.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you then wanting us to believe that during Lot's day every single sinner on the planet was wiped out when God rained down fire from heaven on a particular region on the planet? That this somehow wiped out sinners everywhere on the planet, even sinners not in that same region at the time?

It is a quandary for postribs.
A huge dilemma.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The order, as I see it, is like this (I believe this all happens quickly up until the judgment which I believe takes place in eternity):

1. Jesus descends from heaven with His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ.
2. The dead in Christ are resurrected.
3. The dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are all changed to have immortal bodies. The souls of the dead in Christ unite with their changed bodies at that point.
4. Those who are alive and remain are caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.
5. Jesus takes vengeance on living unbelievers by sending fire down on the entire earth, killing all of them (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).
6. The unsaved dead are resurrected.
7. All people from all-time are gathered before Jesus to give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12, Matt 25:31-46).

After everyone has given an account of themselves, that takes us to Matthew 13:30 which refers to what will happen at the end of the judgment. Jesus explained the parable of the wheat and tares (Matt 13:24-30) in Matthew 13:36-43. So, the context of Matthew 13:30 can be seen here:

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So, the tares being gathered to be burned equates to unbelievers being gathered and cast "into a furnace of fire" where "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". I believe that is referring to the same event as Revelation 20:15 which happens at the end of the judgment after everyone has given an account of themselves. So, you have unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at that point and then believers inherit "the kingdom of their Father" in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

Nope
Only place the unbelievers are burned is post mil at the GWTJ.

You also misplaced the rapture.
No white horses at the rapture.
No trib.
It PLAINLY says The there is normal life commerce, buying and selling.
Peace time
And everyday life at the rapture.
So that is impossible to Wiggle out of.

Thank you Jesus for your COMPLETE WORD!!!!!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened..../KJV

I guess what you are not seeing is that everyone has tribulations in the world such as is common to man. You made that pont very well.

Is this the worst you think that it gets? In Matthew 24 it talks about great tribulation, such as whas not since the beginning of the world. This is clearly different than those tribulations that are common to all men. That is what we are promised to not go through. So he raptures us out before it begins.

Keep studying though!

Yes
It is a no brainer.
The point you make destroys their ENTIRE false beliefs.

 

[rebuilder 454]

According to a natural and carnal-minded Christian.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The 1,000 years are not literal.

According to a natural minded individual.

 

[covenantee]

Nah, with all due respect Brother, you arent paying enough attention to the details in Matthew 24 and when you do that it's very easy to roll all of these events into one incident.

The disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and He answered all 3 of them and then, He kept talking and added a lot of stuff about the rapture. Can you tell me in which verse Jesus changed the subject? He answered all 3 questions, and then began adding things...in which verse. If you can tell me the verse, then I can explain it to you.

It's in the details Brother.

If you have Scripture and/or history disproving what I've presented, then present yours.

But consult with the Judaean Christians first.

Thankfully not one of them was a dispensational futurist.