Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[Scott Downey]

I Thess 4 is about the second appearing of the Lord, not the third. There is no third appearing, no secret second coming.
This second appearing is also the Resurrection on the Last Day and the Day of Judgment, as the dead Rise up.
You do understand Jesus taught the Last Day is when He raises up the dead, at His appearing, and with His kingdom established in the earth, Christ judges the living and the dead

2 Timothy 4

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


1 Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[grafted branch]

30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.

Here, in these verses, the Son of man is revealed and in that same day the fleeing is to take place. In Matthew 24:15-20 when they see the abomination of desolation(AOD) the fleeing is to take place. How do you see the Son of man being revealed? Is it through the AOD?

I see the word “taken” in Matthew 24:40 is <3880> paralambano, which can mean to receive something transmitted. I was thinking Matthew 24:40-41 could be interpreted as some people receiving the revealing of the Son of man.



Also, you mentioned the parable of the tares, in Matthew 13:30 the angels gather the tares first which would agree with your assessment of who is taken and who is left. In 1 Thessalonians 4:26 the dead in Christ rise first then we which remain and are alive shall be caught up.

What is the overall order? Is it the tares getting gathered first or is it the dead in Christ that rise first? It doesn’t seem like they can both be about the same event if we have two different things happening first, but I suppose they could happen simultaneously.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here, in these verses, the Son of man is revealed and in that same day the fleeing is to take place. In Matthew 24:15-20 when they see the abomination of desolation(AOD) the fleeing is to take place. How do you see the Son of man being revealed? Is it through the AOD?

I see the word “taken” in Matthew 24:40 is <3880> paralambano, which can mean to receive something transmitted. I was thinking Matthew 24:40-41 could be interpreted as some people receiving the revealing of the Son of man.



Also, you mentioned the parable of the tares, in Matthew 13:30 the angels gather the tares first which would agree with your assessment of who is taken and who is left. In 1 Thessalonians 4:26 the dead in Christ rise first then we which remain and are alive shall be caught up.

What is the overall order? Is it the tares getting gathered first or is it the dead in Christ that rise first? It doesn’t seem like they can both be about the same event if we have two different things happening first, but I suppose they could happen simultaneously.

It's somewhat simultaneous on that Last Day. A lot is happening on the Last Day

When Christ comes is the resurrection and the judgement, there is no gathering first of Christians as in rapture with a 3.5 year long delay of time.

But yes, the wicked workers of iniquity are first taken away from the world, God, Christ and us and find themselves headed into the fire after the books of their deeds are opened and they are judged. We also then get a new earth, and a new heaven in which dwells righteousness the day after the last day. The DAY of Judgment is spoken of as the Day of the Lord, so it is one very important, special DAY.

I think there are enough angels to do it all very quick on the Last Day of this world (age).

Here also is described this last day in 2 Thess 1, note again at Christ's return what happens to the wicked who have been persecuting the people of God during the tribulation times.

We receive our rest from the tribulations of those last days, on the LAST DAY, as taught in v7
And also this is the punishment of the wicked on the LAST DAY as this is the return of Christ in flaming fire taking vengeance

***********************************************************
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is what Christ taught happens on the Last Day, it is called the Day of the Lord in scripture, and it is a DAY, not a time period.
It's a good bible study to research the 'Day of the Lord', you find it in Old and New Testaments, a lot of details

We have the resurrection, and the judgement.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

 

[Davy]

It's somewhat simultaneous on that Last Day. A lot is happening on the Last Day

When Christ comes is the resurrection and the judgement, there is no gathering first of Christians as in rapture with a 3.5 year long delay of time.

But yes, the wicked workers of iniquity are first taken away from the world, God, Christ and us and find themselves headed into the fire after the books of their deeds are opened and they are judged. We also then get a new earth, and a new heaven in which dwells righteousness the day after the last day. The DAY of Judgment is spoken of as the Day of the Lord, so it is one very important, special DAY.

I think there are enough angels to do it all very quick on the Last Day of this world (age).

Here also is described this last day in 2 Thess 1, note again at Christ's return what happens to the wicked who have been persecuting the people of God during the tribulation times.

We receive our rest from the tribulations of those last days, on the LAST DAY, as taught in v7
And also this is the punishment of the wicked on the LAST DAY as this is the return of Christ in flaming fire taking vengeance

....

A bit too far Scott with your analysis. You suggest man's doctrine of Amillennialism in your coverage, and that suggests the Great White Throne Judgment and new heavens and a new earth happens on that same day of Christ's coming, when it does not per God's Word.

If you attend a church that all it does is pull out certain verses about a destruction on the day of Christ's coming, then it can be easy to think that also is the final Judgment Day. It won't be, and here's a Bible Scripture for AFTER Christ's future return that shows what I am saying...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

The nations of UNSAVED will still... exist AFTER Christ's future return to this earth with His elect saints. That is what the above Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals. It is also what the Revelation 20 Scripture reveals, IF... one will actually heed Rev.20 as written, and not try to allegorize it like man's theory of Amillennialism does.

 

[grafted branch]

It's somewhat simultaneous on that Last Day. A lot is happening on the Last Day

When Christ comes is the resurrection and the judgement, there is no gathering first of Christians as in rapture with a 3.5 year long delay of time.

But yes, the wicked workers of iniquity are first taken away from the world, God, Christ and us and find themselves headed into the fire after the books of their deeds are opened and they are judged. We also then get a new earth, and a new heaven in which dwells righteousness the day after the last day. The DAY of Judgment is spoken of as the Day of the Lord, so it is one very important, special DAY.

I think there are enough angels to do it all very quick on the Last Day of this world (age).

Here also is described this last day in 2 Thess 1, note again at Christ's return what happens to the wicked who have been persecuting the people of God during the tribulation times.

We receive our rest from the tribulations of those last days, on the LAST DAY, as taught in v7
And also this is the punishment of the wicked on the LAST DAY as this is the return of Christ in flaming fire taking vengeance

***********************************************************
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ok, thanks for your thoughts. In Luke 17:30-31 when the Son of man is revealed we are to flee, the same as the fleeing that takes place when we see the AOD. However, as you quoted, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 when the Lord Jesus is revealed vengeance follows.

Putting these verses together it looks like the believers flee, they get out of the way, then the fire comes down taking vengeance on those who are not saved.

Personally what I see is the last day of the old covenant that was decayed and ready to vanish taking place in 70AD. That I think would be when the Son of man was revealed, the fleeing took place, and the vengeance happened. I wouldn’t say these things can’t happen again in a spiritual manner but it just seems like when I try yo get all the verses to agree it comes back to the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Scott Downey]

A bit too far Scott with your analysis. You suggest man's doctrine of Amillennialism in your coverage, and that suggests the Great White Throne Judgment and new heavens and a new earth happens on that same day of Christ's coming, when it does not per God's Word.

If you attend a church that all it does is pull out certain verses about a destruction on the day of Christ's coming, then it can be easy to think that also is the final Judgment Day. It won't be, and here's a Bible Scripture for AFTER Christ's future return that shows what I am saying...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

The nations of UNSAVED will still... exist AFTER Christ's future return to this earth with His elect saints. That is what the above Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals. It is also what the Revelation 20 Scripture reveals, IF... one will actually heed Rev.20 as written, and not try to allegorize it like man's theory of Amillennialism does.

Part of the problem is you are teaching from the Old Covenant prophets as your MAIN reference POV, and not the NC, where we have the best revelation.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Doing that also leads people back to bloody animal sacrifices of the Ezekiel temple, during an earthly millennial reign, which is an improper interpretation seeing as God did away with animal sacrifice, the shedding of animals blood in a temple.

But they will tell you it must happen as they say as it is written in Zechariah.

 

[Scott Downey]

On the Last Day what also happens during the Day of the Lord? After the Day of judgement?

We get a new earth and new heaven, the old is destroyed at the return of Christ in a fiery cataclysm of destruction, OF THE WHOLE WORLD, not just a city. All of this we are looking forward to.

2 Peter 3:9-11
Young's Literal Translation
9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

10 and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

11 All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?

12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;

14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace,


God says then He makes all things new.

Revelation 21
English Standard Version
The New Heaven and the New Earth

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[Davy]

Some will say, "How can this be that the wicked and unsaved nations will still exist after Christ's future return?"

It is because like Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3, God is long suffering, not wishing that any should perish. And what did Peter reveal how a literal "thousand years" is seen by GOD Himself?

2 Peter 3:8-10
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

That "day of the Lord" actually covers the whole period of the "thousand years" of Christ's future reign over the unsaved nations with "a rod of iron". It's just that the "day of the Lord" BEGINS with Christ's future coming.

This is what God's Word reveals, as Biblical mention of the continued existence of those unsaved nations being Scripture proof, per the end of Zechariah 14 , Revelation 2:26-28, and Revelation 20.

God's "consuming fire" will burn man's works off the surface of this earth on that day of Christ's future coming. It will end the reign of the wicked upon this earth. But not ALL... the wicked are destroyed on that day of Christ's coming, again, as the Bible Scriptures I have shown prove. What... does that mean then will happen to man's TYPE of continued existence upon this earth when that "consuming fire" event happens on the day of Christ's coming?

This is where most of my Christian brethren are 'cloudy' in their Bible understanding, because most churches will not teach about Apostle Paul's 'change' to the spiritual body being for ALL... peoples and nations on that "day of the Lord". Most only preach that Paul's 'change' at the twinkling of an eye of 1 Corinthians 15 is only for those in Christ Jesus. It is not only for the saved, but for the unsaved nations also, and this is revealed in the Isaiah 25 chapter where Apostle Paul was pulling from about Death Swallowed Up In Victory. It will be for ALL... nations and peoples, not just us.

When Lord Jesus comes, and God's "consuming fire" burns man's works off this earth, the concept of FLESH DEATH will be over and done with. There will be NO MORE FLESH TYPE OF DEATH at that point of God's "consuming fire" on the day of Christ's coming. The ONLY type of death that will then exist will be for the UNSAVED cast into the "lake of fire" AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign over those UNSAVED nations, and Revelation 20 calls that the SECOND DEATH.

That "second death" is NOT... a death of one's flesh. It is a death of one's soul with spirit.

Like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, Christ MUST REIGN over all nations, until ALL His enemies are made His footstool (1 Cor.15:24-25).

Look what Lord Jesus said to His elect Church of Philadelphia about making His enemies bow in worship AFTER His future return...

Rev 3:8-9
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

That "synagogue of Satan" represents the wicked "tares" in Jesus' parable of the tares of the field (Matthew 13). They represent the children which Jesus said the devil sowed. And when He said those only 'say' they are Jews, Jesus was revealing how those are foreigners that crept in among the Jews throughout Israel's Old Testament history, like the Canaanites which Israel was not able to fully destroy per God's command. If you do not know about this BATTLE between God's children which He sowed for this present world, and Satan's children which he sowed, then you will never fully understand what these kind of Bible Scriptures are about, and show that you even missed God's very first revealing about this in the Genesis 3:13-14 Scripture...

Matt 13:36-39
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."
KJV

(Jesus is speaking of 'spiritual seed', not a flesh sowing of seed, just so others understand this is NOT about man's serpent seed doctrine.) Jude 4 also revealed this about the spiritual battle between two groups of servants upon this earth, God's elect vs. Satan's elect. God showed in Jude 4 that the crept in unawares were 'ordained'... to that condemnation! ...

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Good luck finding a church that will teach you about this matter from God's Word, as the main duty of the Church is to evangelize The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Most Churches today have 'forgotten' that it is also their duty in Christ to teach His faithful servants the "strong meat" also.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, andyielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

There will be some kind of harm that takes place in NHNE else the leaves would not be healing the nations.

We must take this information into account when looking at the old heaven and earth being destroyed.

 

[Davy]

Part of the problem is you are teaching from the Old Covenant prophets as your MAIN reference POV, and not the NC, where we have the best revelation.

So... you have been taught by men's doctrines also that ALL Old Testament Scripture of God's prophets is DEAD HISTORY? even though in your own posts you recommended study in the OT prophets about the future "day of the Lord"? Do you not realize you are being hypocritical?

The Zechariah 14 chapter is one of the main Bible references to Christ's FUTURE COMING on the last day of this world, on that "day of the Lord" you were preaching about. And that Zechariah 14 chapter continues... revealed events AFTER Jesus' future return, ON THIS SAME EARTH which is NOT destroyed on the day of His coming, but only its surface cleansed, just like God's flood cleansed only the surface.

It therefore hurts my soul to see you reject that Zechariah 14 Scripture about Lord Jesus' future return and events that are to occur after... His future return.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, andyielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

There will be some kind of harm that takes place in NHNE else the leaves would not be healing the nations.

We must take this information into account when looking at the old heaven and earth being destroyed.

IF... you are like Scott, and wrongly believe that the Old Testament prophets cover dead history, then you will not... know about God's River and that Tree of Life manifesting on this earth with Christ's coming "thousand years" reign. Not everything written in Revelation 22 is new heavens and new earth timing.

Ezek 47:8-12
8 Then said he unto me, "These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

With the future new heavens and new earth, there will be NO "sanctuary" (Rev.21:22).

That Ezekiel 47 detail thus reveals God's River will return... to this earth with Christ's future coming, and His building of the Millennial Sanctuary, i.e., temple. That is further... proof that Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect over the UNSAVED NATIONS is meant LITERALLY.

Here's another Old Testament Scripture from the prophets that you probably also don't believe...

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

That "BRANCH" is about Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Branch of the stem of Jesse per Isaiah 11.

That "... he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: ...", is about the idea of the Priest/King which has NEVER HAPPENED TO THIS DAY IN THIS PRESENT WORLD. Only Lord Jesus Christ will be KING and PRIEST upon His future throne of inheritance, David's throne, which is an earthly throne.

 

[grafted branch]

IF... you are like Scott, and wrongly believe that the Old Testament prophets cover dead history, then you will not... know about God's River and that Tree of Life manifesting on this earth with Christ's coming "thousand years" reign. Not everything written in Revelation 22 is new heavens and new earth timing.

I completely agree that we must look at the OT in conjunction with the NT.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

Where are the miry places that shall not be healed in the NHNE?

 

[Davy]

Where are the miry places that shall not be healed in the NHNE?

You failed to understand all those OT Scripture revelations I was pointing to in my post #32.

That Ezekiel 47 chapter about the return of God's River and that future "sanctuary" existing on earth, even telling us its FUTURE location in the middle east, is CHRIST'S MILLENNIAL REIGN TIME, not... the new heavens and new earth time.

I even showed the Revelation 21:22 "no temple" reference for the new heavens and a new earth timing AFTER... Christ's Millennial reign. How did you miss that? After Christ's future literal "thousand years" reign over the nations, there will no longer be need of that Millennial temple, showing it will not exist for the new heavens and new earth timing that happens after the 1,000 years.

So when I quoted the Zechariah 6 reference about Christ as that "BRANCH" Who will build that future "sanctuary", ON EARTH when He returns, how is it you missed that too?

 

[grafted branch]

You failed to understand all those OT Scripture revelations I was pointing to in my post #32.

That Ezekiel 47 chapter about the return of God's River and that future "sanctuary" existing on earth, even telling us its FUTURE location in the middle east, is CHRIST'S MILLENNIAL REIGN TIME, not... the new heavens and new earth time.

I even showed the Revelation 21:22 "no temple" reference for the new heavens and a new earth timing AFTER... Christ's Millennial reign. How did you miss that? After Christ's future literal "thousand years" reign over the nations, there will no longer be need of that Millennial temple, showing it will not exist for the new heavens and new earth timing that happens after the 1,000 years.

So when I quoted the Zechariah 6 reference about Christ as that "BRANCH" Who will build that future "sanctuary", ON EARTH when He returns, how is it you missed that too?

Ok, my bad, I missed several of your points that you made.

Let me ask you this then, what are you doing with a verse such as Ezekiel 37:26? What sanctuary is set in the midst of them forevermore?

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[Davidpt]

Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation ) Pray you be counted worthy to escape= the rapture.

The problem is this. God's wrath is the day of the Lord except the day of the Lord is not great tribulation. IOW, great tribulation comes first, immediately followed by the day of the Lord. Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29 clearly proves this.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken


Immediately after the tribulation of those days, obviously referring to verse 21, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Anyone familiar with the day of the Lord passages in both the OT and NT should know that the DOTL is associated with darkness, exactly what Matthew 24:29 is depicting via this---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven. Even though it's not meaning in the literal sense, that is beside the point. What it is depicting is the point. It is depicting total darkness since that is exactly what would happen if all those things happened in a literal sense.

Great tribulation and the day of the Lord are not parallel events. The former precedes the latter. Therefore, you don't even have a valid argument unless you can prove how Jesus was wrong in Matthew 24 where He clearly placed great tribulation prior to the day of the Lord, not during it instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation ) Pray you be counted worthy to escape= the rapture.

That is from 1 Thessalonians 5:9, of course. And everyone here agrees that born again believers are not appointed to God's wrath. But, you somehow equate "God's wrath" with "the great tribulation". How do you come to that conclusion? What is your understanding of what "the great tribulation" entails?

The context of the wrath that Paul was referring to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 can be seen here from what he wrote a little bit before that...

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Would you agree that the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" is God's wrath that Paul said we are not appointed to and will occur when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? If so, what is your understanding of what Paul is talking about in that passage?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here, in these verses, the Son of man is revealed and in that same day the fleeing is to take place. In Matthew 24:15-20 when they see the abomination of desolation(AOD) the fleeing is to take place. How do you see the Son of man being revealed? Is it through the AOD?

I see the word “taken” in Matthew 24:40 is <3880> paralambano, which can mean to receive something transmitted. I was thinking Matthew 24:40-41 could be interpreted as some people receiving the revealing of the Son of man.



Also, you mentioned the parable of the tares, in Matthew 13:30 the angels gather the tares first which would agree with your assessment of who is taken and who is left. In 1 Thessalonians 4:26 the dead in Christ rise first then we which remain and are alive shall be caught up.

What is the overall order? Is it the tares getting gathered first or is it the dead in Christ that rise first? It doesn’t seem like they can both be about the same event if we have two different things happening first, but I suppose they could happen simultaneously.

The context of the dead in Christ rising first is not in relation to unbelievers. It's in relation to living believers. According to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14-17, the order of things after Christ descends from heaven is that the dead in Christ are first resurrected and then after that those who are in Christ and are alive will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[grafted branch]

The context of the dead in Christ rising first is not in relation to unbelievers. It's in relation to living believers. According to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14-17, the order of things after Christ descends from heaven is that the dead in Christ are first resurrected and then after that those who are in Christ and are alive will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.

Ok, so what is the overall order of things when you include both the saved and unsaved? Keeping in mind Matthew 13:30 where the tares are gathered first.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, andyielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

There will be some kind of harm that takes place in NHNE else the leaves would not be healing the nations.

We must take this information into account when looking at the old heaven and earth being destroyed.

You are taking that too literally. It's not talking about people being injured or sick and needing healing for their injuries or illnesses. It's talking figuratively about maintaining the perfect health and wellbeing that will be present in the NHNE where there will be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21:4). Interpreting it the way you do contradicts Revelation 21:4.