Apostasy:

[thisistheendtimes]

The word "sect" is used in scripture (more than once in Acts depending on which version you look in).

The blueletterbible website is an online concordance and you can look in all popular versions (you don't need to register)......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=purification+of+the+flesh&t=RSV&sf=5

A sect is not just a denomination or style of worship, it is a group that is based on a seriously detrimental/destructive HERESY doctrine (satan's intention). Paul spoke against "SECTAS PERDITIONIS" (not all information about the N.T. days is in scripture....Josephus the historian recorded many details of those days). The AS at the end of "sect" is not necessarily plural (I don't know if the Greek language has a "PLURAL").

There was an event that historians call "The Incident at Antioch" that took place around 50 A.D. (The "Council of Jerusalem") about whether the Messianic Jews of those days should continue to follow MOSAIC LAW......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch

Mind you, this event happened about seventeen years after the crucifixion of Jesus.
Paul argued that the continued observance of Mosaic law (the 10 commandments and also the ordinances/rules about how to worship...rituals, dress, etc.) is contrary to the gospel ("doctrine of Christ", Christ and Him crucified) because Jesus did ALL the "works of God" (John 6:28 and John 9:3) that are necessary for our salvation (the "disciples"/STUDENTS didn't know any better and went along with Peter 'the Jesus denier' and the Judaizers).

The verse that addresses the final result of this meeting is Acts 11:26.......

"and in Antioch the disciples were FOR THE FIRST TIME called Christians".

Before Paul was "Paul", he was "SAUL" the chief pharisee. He persecuted everyone who was devoted to Jesus (they were not "followers", they were spiritually 'MEMBERS OF' Jesus's body (His "body" hung on the cross and now CONTAINS US spiritually).

Acts 9:2

"so that if he found any BELONGING TO the Way..."......(only a MEMBER OF can "belong to").

I recently wrote a post that I think is appropriate for this thread (not just because it includes details about "the Way", but because of the topic of LOVING GOD as THE devotional goal and requirement........anything other than LOVING GOD ONLY as a means of holy devotion is the APOSTATE DEVOTION).........it is explained in Hebrews chapter 6.....

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15842-do-they-have-no-love/

"FOR GOD IS NOT SO UNJUST...." (Hebrews 6: 10).......do some serious thinking on that one.

All of the "works"/deeds (self-effort) we do/perform demonstrates our lack of reliance on what Jesus did on the cross. More than just a lack of faith on our part, it is also total disregard for the pain and misery that Jesus suffered in the process of gaining our purification. We also were taught to love EACH OTHER instead of loving GOD ONLY for spiritual/divine gain (the brethren didn't hang on the cross, nor did they give anyone the Holy Spirit)

The love we show EACH OTHER (it is "CORBAN", Mark 7:11) should rightfully be given to "Abba Father" and His Son. We must get to know the "doctrine of Christ" and continue to "abide in" (the ONLY foundation for purification/salvation) it when we move on (go ahead) into a MATURE devotion (the Jews had only The Father to worship).

2 John 1:9 "Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son".

Jesus didn't only perform purification OF THE FLESH, He ALSO left The Holy Spirit with us so we could learn to do things right and holy (and then our conscience can always be clear in our daily walk (purification OF THE CONSCIENCE....

John 7:39 "for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

Hebrews 9:14 "purify your conscience". (this is done by the "eternal" Spirit of God....Holy Spirit).

Our "purification" OF THE FLESH is based on what Jesus did on the cross and has been DONE/ACCOMPLISHED (the doctrine of Christ....Christ and Him CRUCIFIED), but our DEVOTION/RELATIONSHIP should go beyond what has been already accomplished....

....Therefore, let us leave (go beyond) the elementary "doctrine of Christ" as a means of devotion and move on (go ahead) to a "more excellent" devotion by having the ONE AND ONLY foundation for salvation (Jesus). Let us discard the old 'repentance foundation' we were taught when we were being TRAINED to have when we were being TAUGHT "milk".

1 Corinthians 3:1 "TRAINING in righteousness"....a "milk" REPENTANCE foundation (done by performing righteous deeds/"works"/self-efforts).

Nor should we simply have faith THAT GOD EXISTS ("faith TOWARD God"), but we should also have faith that He is a GOOD God and is a REWARDER (not a punisher)

Hebrews 6:1
"Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God".

Hebrews 11:6
"believe that He exists" AND "that He is a REWARDER".

....(for those who want to "draw near" because they seek whom their "SOUL loves").

JESUS is the WORD OF GOD (the "word of God" hung on the cross, we read the "word of truth", it is the GOSPEL MESSAGE that we today READ as TEXT).

Acts 13:48 "and they glorified the word of God" (they glorified JESUS).

Ephesians 1:13 "have HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation".

We should be using the word of truth correctly......"rightly handling the word of truth".

James 1:18 "He brought us forth......BY the word of truth"....
......(brought us forth by PERFORMING the GOSPEL act/deed/process/plan of salvation).

WE WERE TAUGHT WRONG.

Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) chapter 3 verse 2...."I will seek whom my SOUL loves".

Know Him as "Abba Father", not "Master" and be master of yourself (Titus 1:8).

"lover of goodness, master of himself" that needs no "commands" and live the "law of liberty" because of what was abolished (Luke 3:6, James 1:25).

Verses are from the RSV.

 

[Episkopos]

Instead of "INTERRPRETING" why not just read the words as they are on the page?

Try this...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


<_<

The word "sect" is used in scripture (more than once in Acts depending on which version you look in).

The blueletterbible website is an online concordance and you can look in all popular versions (you don't need to register)......

http://www.bluelette...lesh&t=RSV&sf=5

A sect is not just a denomination or style of worship, it is a group that is based on a seriously detrimental/destructive HERESY doctrine (satan's intention). Paul spoke against "SECTAS PERDITIONIS" (not all information about the N.T. days is in scripture....Josephus the historian recorded many details of those days). The AS at the end of "sect" is not necessarily plural (I don't know if the Greek language has a "PLURAL").

There was an event that historians call "The Incident at Antioch" that took place around 50 A.D. (The "Council of Jerusalem") about whether the Messianic Jews of those days should continue to follow MOSAIC LAW......

http://en.wikipedia....dent_at_Antioch

Mind you, this event happened about seventeen years after the crucifixion of Jesus.
Paul argued that the continued observance of Mosaic law (the 10 commandments and also the ordinances/rules about how to worship...rituals, dress, etc.) is contrary to the gospel ("doctrine of Christ", Christ and Him crucified) because Jesus did ALL the "works of God" (John 6:28 and John 9:3) that are necessary for our salvation (the "disciples"/STUDENTS didn't know any better and went along with Peter 'the Jesus denier' and the Judaizers).

The verse that addresses the final result of this meeting is Acts 11:26.......

"and in Antioch the disciples were FOR THE FIRST TIME called Christians".

Before Paul was "Paul", he was "SAUL" the chief pharisee. He persecuted everyone who was devoted to Jesus (they were not "followers", they were spiritually 'MEMBERS OF' Jesus's body (His "body" hung on the cross and now CONTAINS US spiritually).

Acts 9:2

"so that if he found any BELONGING TO the Way..."......(only a MEMBER OF can "belong to").

I recently wrote a post that I think is appropriate for this thread (not just because it includes details about "the Way", but because of the topic of LOVING GOD as THE devotional goal and requirement........anything other than LOVING GOD ONLY as a means of holy devotion is the APOSTATE DEVOTION).........it is explained in Hebrews chapter 6.....

http://www.christian...y-have-no-love/

"FOR GOD IS NOT SO UNJUST...." (Hebrews 6: 10).......do some serious thinking on that one.

All of the "works"/deeds (self-effort) we do/perform demonstrates our lack of reliance on what Jesus did on the cross. More than just a lack of faith on our part, it is also total disregard for the pain and misery that Jesus suffered in the process of gaining our purification. We also were taught to love EACH OTHER instead of loving GOD ONLY for spiritual/divine gain (the brethren didn't hang on the cross, nor did they give anyone the Holy Spirit)

The love we show EACH OTHER (it is "CORBAN", Mark 7:11) should rightfully be given to "Abba Father" and His Son. We must get to know the "doctrine of Christ" and continue to "abide in" (the ONLY foundation for purification/salvation) it when we move on (go ahead) into a MATURE devotion (the Jews had only The Father to worship).

2 John 1:9 "Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son".

Jesus didn't only perform purification OF THE FLESH, He ALSO left The Holy Spirit with us so we could learn to do things right and holy (and then our conscience can always be clear in our daily walk (purification OF THE CONSCIENCE....

John 7:39 "for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

Hebrews 9:14 "purify your conscience". (this is done by the "eternal" Spirit of God....Holy Spirit).

Our "purification" OF THE FLESH is based on what Jesus did on the cross and has been DONE/ACCOMPLISHED (the doctrine of Christ....Christ and Him CRUCIFIED), but our DEVOTION/RELATIONSHIP should go beyond what has been already accomplished....

....Therefore, let us leave (go beyond) the elementary "doctrine of Christ" as a means of devotion and move on (go ahead) to a "more excellent" devotion by having the ONE AND ONLY foundation for salvation (Jesus). Let us discard the old 'repentance foundation' we were taught when we were being TRAINED to have when we were being TAUGHT "milk".

1 Corinthians 3:1 "TRAINING in righteousness"....a "milk" REPENTANCE foundation (done by performing righteous deeds/"works"/self-efforts).

Nor should we simply have faith THAT GOD EXISTS ("faith TOWARD God"), but we should also have faith that He is a GOOD God and is a REWARDER (not a punisher)

Hebrews 6:1
"Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God".

Hebrews 11:6
"believe that He exists" AND "that He is a REWARDER".

....(for those who want to "draw near" because they seek whom their "SOUL loves").

JESUS is the WORD OF GOD (the "word of God" hung on the cross, we read the "word of truth", it is the GOSPEL MESSAGE that we today READ as TEXT).

Acts 13:48 "and they glorified the word of God" (they glorified JESUS).

Ephesians 1:13 "have HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation".

We should be using the word of truth correctly......"rightly handling the word of truth".

James 1:18 "He brought us forth......BY the word of truth"....
......(brought us forth by PERFORMING the GOSPEL act/deed/process/plan of salvation).

WE WERE TAUGHT WRONG.

Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) chapter 3 verse 2...."I will seek whom my SOUL loves".

Know Him as "Abba Father", not "Master" and be master of yourself (Titus 1:8).

"lover of goodness, master of himself" that needs no "commands" and live the "law of liberty" because of what was abolished (Luke 3:6, James 1:25).

Verses are from the RSV.

A sect is any group that divides over a preference for "a truth" they are championing. All denominations are sects. Otherwise it would be God's will that the church is divided into competing franchises.

 

[thisistheendtimes]

Episkopos,

In "sectas perditionis", the "AS" means "OF" (sect of PERDITION).

I know that since this explanation is not IN SCRIPTURE, there will be many objections by all who have become accustomed to everything that man has preached for centuries (the 'STATUS QUO').

Out of all that I wrote, it seems that you found ONLY ONE thing that you can intellectually oppose me about (do I misunderstand?),...that is okay, I don't mind you not believing TRUTH. Neither do I mind you opposing anything I write. I am NOT disappointed. I am NOT trying to CONVINCE anyone against their will about anything. Having a LOVE RELATIONSHIP and new/true understanding must be YOUR OWN FREE WILL (if you require 'BEING CONVINCED' instead of a WILLINGNESS and DESIRE to understand "truth", you will never understand LOVING GOD ONLY).

You may have many accomplishments and intellectual acheivements (high status/position), but that will get you nowhere with God. God is no respecter of the positions of men (the individuality of a man).

Matthew 22:16
"and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men".

A "living, breathing, soul" LOVES HIM the way Adam did before the fall, but everyone who is a product of MAN ("sons of men") is going to "miss the mark".

Deutoronomy 32:8
"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God" (either/or).

Intellectual ascent is NOT THE GUARANTEE of an inheritance. The ONLY worthy offering to God is from your heart/soul.....

.....offer to Him what He is.....(GOD IS LOVE).

Ephesians 1:14
"which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it".


Salvation (purification of THE FLESH) has been DONE. Purification OF THE CONSCIENCE is up to YOU (will you allow God's Spirit to train yours?...INHERITANCE).

 

[[email protected]]

Apostasy:

This writing is offered as a study of Apostasy and is to be considered the view of the writer, me. If it offends any I am sorry, but just as I give others the right to believe and write as they see it I claim that same right for myself. This writing is not a claim, by me, that I know everything. It is my effort to try and understand the truth.

Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasy

　

I turned to this thread in hopes of educating myself on new views of the status of the church, because what I've been reading and seeing before my eyes is alarming.

Instead I find we are treated to yet another diatribe against Catholicism, ideology, traditions and celebrations of the brethren.

THE GREAT APOSTACY predicted in scripture is upon us. Right now!
Evidence of that unparalleled historic event is all around us.

"I hate...your festivals, says the Lord, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies" (5:21).
I will send a famine on the land: not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of
hearing the words of the Lord"
Amos (8:11).

"In the last days, people will have a form of godliness, but it will not be based solidly on the Scriptures"
2 Timothy 3:15; 4:14

It has been published in recent years that the Protestant church is in a condition of self-destruction.
The underpinnings of Protestantisms demise are legion and I'm sure that the reader can think of at least a half dozen; real estate development instead of spiritual development, sermons which concentrate on the prosperity gospel, situational ethics, personal improvement, etc. instead of deep Biblical teaching, political ideology that contradicts God's Word, etc.

CHURCH ATTENDANCE in 2010 was approximately 43%, down from 91% in 1948.
- Gallup poll

BUT actual attendance is less than half of what (Gallup) surveys lead us to believe."
- Dave Olson (Director of The American Church Research Project)

"The proportion of the 'American' population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001"
- ARIS study, 2001. (76% in 2006)

* The difference in the numbers is attributable to lying. People tend to exaggerate every poll answer from sex to spiritualism. Such polls are not generally accurate. The ARIS study is based upon actual head count of worship attendance. Strangely, BOTH the Gallup & the ARIS projections of church attendance and acknowledged Christian believers falls to 10% of 1948 levels by the year 2050.


"70% of churches in America are plateaued or in decline."
- Danny Von Kanel (also blames leader's witness as a factor)

"17.7% of the US population attends church by actual head count. This breaks down into 9% evangelical, 5.5% Catholic and 3.1% Mainline denominations."
- D. Goodmanson in Church, Church Planting

The word 'apostasy' means renunciation or abandonment of religion in act, in philosophy and in intellectual support. We are seeing the tide of Christendom going out all over the world, not just in America.


The 10/40 window
http://home.snu.edu/~HCULBERT/1040.htm
World evangelism statistics:
Of the 55 least evangelized countries, 97% of their population lives within the Ten-Forty Window.

The 'window' is a longitudinal band which generally encompasses what was historically the core nations of Christianity; western Europe, Greece, North America and even Russia to a large extent. As of this writing, Europe is generally recognized as being completely secular. Greece and Russia, because of their political religious exclusivism mostly reject other Christian denominations from evangelizing their populations. The United States, although still strongly Christian, is in an alarming state of decline. Asian statistics, especially numbers from China, are nearly impossible to authenticate. The Chinese church is underground and there are no accurate estimates of strength. Japan has resisted Christianity and has experienced no real growth in the last one hundred years. In fact, everywhere in Asia, Asia Minor and the western Pacific basin there is a resurgence of cultural ideologies.

Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism are centered within the 10/40 Window.

Buddhism is essentially atheism covered by a religious shroud. Hinduism is the largest pantheistic belief system on the planet. As such it is the ultimate expression of religious law in society.

Islam is experiencing unprecedented growth. One of the reasons for this is that its social and ideological rules are so rigid. In times of social and economic upheaval people reach out for something solid, something unchangeable to believe in. Christianity no longer offers a solid social rule system, no longer offers a consistent ideology (it's greatest critics are internal - not allowed in any other belief system; hence self-destructive), and is no longer viewed as having undefiled leadership. Christian leaders are consumed by hedonism, accumulation of physical property, and improving on self-image (photo opportunities).

The Church, especially the protestant variety, is in serious decline. If trends continue, in the next forty years there will be few Christians left to accuse one another regarding their individual celebrations of the death of Christ. The population of the world rejects it and if we don't wise up, our children and their children will do the same.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

 

[aspen]

One man's warior of truth is another man's Pharisee....

 

[musterion]

Hello,

I'm new here and registed just to post the following. I do not intend it as a defense of mid-Acts dispensationalism (though it is that, and a very good one) but because of the truly gracious closing comment by moderator Merrel Tenney. A few on this thread really should take his comments to heart. You'll know who you are when you read it.


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/dispensationalism-a-panel-discussion/

 

[veteran]

I turned to this thread in hopes of educating myself on new views of the status of the church, because what I've been reading and seeing before my eyes is alarming.

Instead I find we are treated to yet another diatribe against Catholicism, ideology, traditions and celebrations of the brethren.

THE GREAT APOSTACY predicted in scripture is upon us. Right now!
Evidence of that unparalleled historic event is all around us.

"I hate...your festivals, says the Lord, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies" (5:21).
I will send a famine on the land: not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of
hearing the words of the Lord"
Amos (8:11).

"In the last days, people will have a form of godliness, but it will not be based solidly on the Scriptures"
2 Timothy 3:15; 4:14

It has been published in recent years that the Protestant church is in a condition of self-destruction.
The underpinnings of Protestantisms demise are legion and I'm sure that the reader can think of at least a half dozen; real estate development instead of spiritual development, sermons which concentrate on the prosperity gospel, situational ethics, personal improvement, etc. instead of deep Biblical teaching, political ideology that contradicts God's Word, etc.

CHURCH ATTENDANCE in 2010 was approximately 43%, down from 91% in 1948.
- Gallup poll

BUT actual attendance is less than half of what (Gallup) surveys lead us to believe."
- Dave Olson (Director of The American Church Research Project)

"The proportion of the 'American' population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001"
- ARIS study, 2001. (76% in 2006)

* The difference in the numbers is attributable to lying. People tend to exaggerate every poll answer from sex to spiritualism. Such polls are not generally accurate. The ARIS study is based upon actual head count of worship attendance. Strangely, BOTH the Gallup & the ARIS projections of church attendance and acknowledged Christian believers falls to 10% of 1948 levels by the year 2050.


"70% of churches in America are plateaued or in decline."
- Danny Von Kanel (also blames leader's witness as a factor)

"17.7% of the US population attends church by actual head count. This breaks down into 9% evangelical, 5.5% Catholic and 3.1% Mainline denominations."
- D. Goodmanson in Church, Church Planting

The word 'apostasy' means renunciation or abandonment of religion in act, in philosophy and in intellectual support. We are seeing the tide of Christendom going out all over the world, not just in America.


The 10/40 window
http://home.snu.edu/~HCULBERT/1040.htm
World evangelism statistics:
Of the 55 least evangelized countries, 97% of their population lives within the Ten-Forty Window.

The 'window' is a longitudinal band which generally encompasses what was historically the core nations of Christianity; western Europe, Greece, North America and even Russia to a large extent. As of this writing, Europe is generally recognized as being completely secular. Greece and Russia, because of their political religious exclusivism mostly reject other Christian denominations from evangelizing their populations. The United States, although still strongly Christian, is in an alarming state of decline. Asian statistics, especially numbers from China, are nearly impossible to authenticate. The Chinese church is underground and there are no accurate estimates of strength. Japan has resisted Christianity and has experienced no real growth in the last one hundred years. In fact, everywhere in Asia, Asia Minor and the western Pacific basin there is a resurgence of cultural ideologies.

Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism are centered within the 10/40 Window.

Buddhism is essentially atheism covered by a religious shroud. Hinduism is the largest pantheistic belief system on the planet. As such it is the ultimate expression of religious law in society.

Islam is experiencing unprecedented growth. One of the reasons for this is that its social and ideological rules are so rigid. In times of social and economic upheaval people reach out for something solid, something unchangeable to believe in. Christianity no longer offers a solid social rule system, no longer offers a consistent ideology (it's greatest critics are internal - not allowed in any other belief system; hence self-destructive), and is no longer viewed as having undefiled leadership. Christian leaders are consumed by hedonism, accumulation of physical property, and improving on self-image (photo opportunities).

The Church, especially the protestant variety, is in serious decline. If trends continue, in the next forty years there will be few Christians left to accuse one another regarding their individual celebrations of the death of Christ. The population of the world rejects it and if we don't wise up, our children and their children will do the same.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

Difficult to trust in those kind of polls, simply because there are many believers out there that don't regularly attend Church services.

Yet there would naturally be a decline in these days, because for this world Christ said He did not come to send peace on the earth, but a sword, to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law (Matt.10:34-35).

Another reason is from the Daniel 12:7 prophecy for the last days about the scattering of the power of the holy people. The crept in unawares have slowly been changing what is taught in the mainstream Christian organizational Church systems as many of them have been joining onto the false one-world peace plan which Christ is coming to destroy. Many so-called Christian Churches have been inviting demonstrations of OTHER religions right in their congregations, even Buddhist monks chanting eastern mantras in front of the communion table of Christ in one Christian Church in Chicago, etc.(Inter-Faith joining movement).

For those reasons, and others, many Christian believers have stopped attending those Churches doing that. So the stats you're reporting are most likely a majority in number of believers who still attend with allowing those kind of things to go on within their Churches, while many home Churches have sprung up over the years that cannot be polled. As world communism gets a greater hold over the traditional western Christian nations as planned, more Christian brethren are going to meet in homes just as the underground Churches have had to form in Communist ruled nations like Red China and Russia instead of attending those nation's forced 'state-controlled' church system.

Hello,

I'm new here and registed just to post the following. I do not intend it as a defense of mid-Acts dispensationalism (though it is that, and a very good one) but because of the truly gracious closing comment by moderator Merrel Tenney. A few on this thread really should take his comments to heart. You'll know who you are when you read it.


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/dispensationalism-a-panel-discussion/

Nothing new revealed in all that. The same supposed dispensationalist doctors of wisdom simply adding to the cloud of confusion about Apostle Paul's commission while disregarding God's Old Testament prophets and the Apostles that were with Christ Jesus at His first coming.

Paul preached the SAME Gospel that Christ and His Apostles did.

Christ's Kingdom is in abeyance until the time of the restoration, which only will occur at His second coming. The reason is because the majority of the house of Judah at Jerusalem rejected the Kingdom, which was prophesied, and that so The Gospel could also go to the Gentiles. And when The Gospel was sent to the nations, those dispensationalist doctors ought to be more specific, because the Apostles of Christ, and not only Paul, went to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe with The Gospel, and then the western Christian nations of history manifested The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and then from there, others would go to the other nations in the world with The Gospel.

Furthermore, per the Matt.21 parable of the husbandmen, and the prophecies in Hosea to the ten tribes of Israel, which Apostle Paul himself quoted TO Gentiles in Romans, sums up the matter of The Gospel being sent to the ten tribes of Israel scattered among the Gentiles, and that both, together, would become Christ's Church in the Christian west. And thus the Gen.48 prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" was fulfiled by that working from God.

So while Dispensationalism tries... to separate the scattered ten tribes from among the Gentiles in The Gospel, they really cannot.

 

[musterion]

You failed to see my point yet made it at the same time.

 

[veteran]

You failed to see my point yet made it at the same time.

Nobody here could tell if you even had a point to make, since you instead let other men speak for you by pushing the falsehoods in that Dispensationalist link. Your reall intention was to try and get others here to read the main body of writing by those Dispensationalist doctors in hopes others here would join onto that false doctrine of men. That's what they would have to read first to get to the closing comment you mentioned. You're not fooling anyone.

 

[Robertson]

You don't need an in depth study to figure out that apostasy had occurred, or that doctrines have been changed since New Testament times. Just look at the things that people came up with after Jesus and his apostles were killed. Now this probably will offend most of you, as truth cuts to the core and makes people be defensive even to the point of denying the very thing they know to be true. So, I say this without any maliciousness, but I just want to share my simple observation. Such doctrines and ideas like that of:

The Trinity
Infant Baptism
Original Sin
Monetary Payment for sin
Paid Clergy
Universities to ordain priesthood instead of God

...and much more are all man made doctrines. NONE of these are found in the Bible. Even what is thought of as a fundamental doctrine of Christianity - the trinity - is nowhere to be found in the sacred book. So where did it come from? From lies and wicked men who were trying to control people. Most of you will revile against this because you have been taught it from birth and you will find it hard to let go. If you do reply to this post, please first reply with the verse reference that has the word trinity in it. If you cant, then you have some serious thinking to do. Do you believe your church who wants your money, or do you believe the Bible?

 

[veteran]

The great falling away, or apostasy that Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Thess.2 has not happened yet today.

It's because Paul gave with that idea the event of that false one coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, exalting himself over ALL that is even called... God, or that is worshipped. Shouldn't take an anvil to fall on us to grasp what that warning is about, i.e, false worship to another instead of our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

That... is what will cause the apostasy that Paul was speaking of there. What we see going on today is merely the preparation for many that will fall away to that coming pseudo-Christ.

The reason why the false prophets are teaching Paul's apostasy is about something else is to try and HIDE that coming false messiah event of his sitting in a temple in Jerusalem and playing God to trick the world like Apostle Paul showed. Their doctrine points to Satan's servants here on earth who are preparing for that false messiah's coming for the whole world to worship in place of Christ. They already know who he is, as he is their 'rock' (note 'rock' in small case = Satan).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

What amazes me is that some are filled with the same spirit that the Pharisees were. What they are doing is the same as they. They just can't stand it when someone else does not believe what they do. --- As you read what they write you can feel the hate that is behind what they write and yet they will claim that they do not sin. Well, the Pharisees couldn't see that plotting to have Jesus killed was murder and against the Law of Moses either.

Take care, Richard

I miss Richard Burger

 

[musterion]

I miss Richard Burger

From what I read, I wish I had the opportunity to communicate with him.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

What amazes me is that some are filled with the same spirit that the Pharisees were. What they are doing is the same as they. They just can't stand it when someone else does not believe what they do. --- As you read what they write you can feel the hate that is behind what they write and yet they will claim that they do not sin. Well, the Pharisees couldn't see that plotting to have Jesus killed was murder and against the Law of Moses either.

Take care, Richard

I do find your OP to be insightful. One point I often make is that the teachings and belief of the early church, say in the first few centuries, should be weightier than our best guesses lo these 2000 years later. By sheer proximity to the Apostolic age, it's bound to be a more accurate reflection on what Jesus taught his disciples. One of the blindnesses of Sola Scriptura (which also isn't part of early church piety) is to think of the Bible as an exhaustive repository of all that was taught, therefore governing all matters of doctrine. But not all Jesus taught is contained in the gospels, nor is everything taught by the apostles contained in the epistles. The epistles were follow up letters on what was given orally. So those who truly want to understand what the first Christians were taught and believed, ought to look closely at those fathers and the practices of early Christians that reveal what they were vouchsafed.

 

[musterion]

I do find your OP to be insightful. One point I often make is that the teachings and belief of the early church, say in the first few centuries, should be weightier than our best guesses lo these 2000 years later. By sheer proximity to the Apostolic age, it's bound to be a more accurate reflection on what Jesus taught his disciples. One of the blindnesses of Sola Scriptura (which also isn't part of early church piety) is to think of the Bible as an exhaustive repository of all that was taught, therefore governing all matters of doctrine. But not all Jesus taught is contained in the gospels, nor is everything taught by the apostles contained in the epistles. The epistles were follow up letters on what was given orally. So those who truly want to understand what the first Christians were taught and believed, ought to look closely at those fathers and the practices of early Christians that reveal what they were vouchsafed.

Hello,

I know you've heard all the arguments for sola scriptura so I won't waste either of our times on it, except to ask if you'd agree that - given what each of us believes and on the assumption neither of us will ever change his mind - one of us must be gravely, eternally wrong, or both of us are, but we definitely cannot BOTH be correct?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hello,

I know you've heard all the arguments for sola scriptura so I won't waste either of our times on it, except to ask if you'd agree that - given what each of us believes and on the assumption neither of us will ever change his mind - one of us must be gravely, eternally wrong, or both of us are, but we definitely cannot BOTH be correct?

I don't know what you mean by gravely, eternally wrong? Do I think that heaven and hell hinge on the correct answer to this? Absolutely not. But tying into the topic of this thread, Sola Scripture was invented in the 16th century and certainly was not part of the faith of the early Christians who, as I pointed out, are far more likely to be accurate in their beliefs, having been taught by the apostles and their immediate successors. By every angle, Sola Scriptura is error, and believing in error always has a cost which is the main thrust of the OP.

 

[musterion]

I don't know what you mean by gravely, eternally wrong? Do I think that heaven and hell hinge on the correct answer to this? Absolutely not. But tying into the topic of this thread, Sola Scripture was invented in the 16th century and certainly was not part of the faith of the early Christians who, as I pointed out, are far more likely to be accurate in their beliefs, having been taught by the apostles and their immediate successors. By every angle, Sola Scriptura is error, and believing in error always has a cost which is the main thrust of the OP.

I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have when I posted; sola scriptura was not my real point. Let me clarify.

We believe contradictory gospels. They cannot both be true, else God is the author of confusion, which is right out.

That means that one of us, in the context of "What must I do to be saved," is at this moment gravely, eternally wrong, or both of us are wrong and someone else has the correct gospel. But we cannot both be right with God given what each of us believes. Agreed?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have when I posted; sola scriptura was not my real point. Let me clarify.

We believe contradictory gospels. They cannot both be true, else God is the author of confusion, which is right out.

That means that one of us, in the context of "What must I do to be saved," is at this moment gravely, eternally wrong, or both of us are wrong and someone else has the correct gospel. But we cannot both be right with God given what each of us believes. Agreed?

I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have when I posted; sola scriptura was not my real point. Let me clarify.

We believe contradictory gospels. They cannot both be true, else God is the author of confusion, which is right out.

That means that one of us, in the context of "What must I do to be saved," is at this moment gravely, eternally wrong, or both of us are wrong and someone else has the correct gospel. But we cannot both be right with God given what each of us believes. Agreed?

No, I absolutely do not agree that either of us is "gravely, eternally wrong". I think that even severed from full communion with Christ's one and original church, Protestants can be saved. That's what grace is. Furthermore, there is only one gospel and both Catholics and Protestants are agreed on it. Because while we can debate the role of works and faith, we both agree that it comes down to grace. I've been arguing this for all my life and run across your type repeatedly, so there's nothing new under the sun. Your view of God and salvation is a very prescribed one where only precise adherence to a certain viewpoint (yours, conveniently enough) will save a person. Never once do you consider that if God were truly that austere and it really does turn out that the Reformation was in error, then you are lost and so is your friends and family.

I believe that God is trying to save as many people as possible, even those with an erroneous view of the gospel, even those who have never come to full understanding of the gospel. God wishes no one to go to hell, and to bring as many of his children home to heaven as he can. The reason why even in other world faiths there are people who are pious, compassionate to the poor, and loving their neighbor as themselves is because they are responding to God's grace, even short of a full revelation of Jesus Christ. Sometimes that full revelation doesn't happen in this lifetime. So I believe in a God who is not looking for excuses to send people to hell and you believe in a God who sets such high standards that few make it to heaven (those who think exactly like you, conveniently enough). Does that mean that one of us is going to hell for believing in the wrong God?

I think you better get used to the fact that a Mormon, a Catholic, and even a Hindu or Buddhist who seek God with a sincere heart is going to heaven no less than you are. If you don't, heaven will be a miserable place for you.

 

[veteran]

I think you better get used to the fact that a Mormon, a Catholic, and even a Hindu or Buddhist who seek God with a sincere heart is going to heaven no less than you are. If you don't, heaven will be a miserable place for you.

And I think you have grossly misrepresented The Father and His Son with such a statement as that.

A sincere heart is NOT enough. One MUST believe on Jesus Christ The Saviour for Salvation, regardless of what religion of the world they have followed. A sincere heart will CHANGE from a faulty religious faith once they have been properly shown The Way of Truth through Christ Jesus.

And another thing, the Roman Church is NOT... the original Christian Church of history. The British Church was with the Culdee Church history in Britain. Even Paul's Epistles show it too, since Linus, Claudia, and Puden are mentioned by Apostle Paul.

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p266.html

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

And I think you have grossly misrepresented The Father and His Son with such a statement as that.

A sincere heart is NOT enough. One MUST believe on Jesus Christ The Saviour for Salvation, regardless of what religion of the world they have followed. A sincere heart will CHANGE from a faulty religious faith once they have been properly shown The Way of Truth through Christ Jesus.

And another thing, the Roman Church is NOT... the original Christian Church of history. The British Church was with the Culdee Church history in Britain. Even Paul's Epistles show it too, since Linus, Claudia, and Puden are mentioned by Apostle Paul.

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p266.html

I have news for you. All the Old Testament saints did not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, and yet their saved because salvation doesn't necessarily require a full assent to the timeless truth of the gospel. Full revelation of Jesus Christ will often happen not in this life, but in the life to come. But where I will agree with you is that once somebody has been introduced to the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no excuse whatsoever to reject it. Those trying to follow God with a sincere heart will embrace Christ when they are introduced to him just as the blind man Jesus healed (who is the son of God that I might believe in him?). But the truth is, billions of people live this life falling well short of that full revelation. They aren't all consigned to perdition, as much as you'd like them to burn in hell. But God calls every human being who has ever lived into a loving relationship with him, and some respond to God's grace and others reject it and remain hostile to the love of God their entire life. But those who respond to God's grace and show the works of redemption in their life will invariably receive the gospel of Christ when its presented to them.