Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Johann]

I invite you to read the Gospels again and find out how on such an important topic, the central topic of the gospels, Jesus NEVER TAUGHT that we must believe in a substitutionary atonement to have our sins forgiven and our lives reconciled with the Father. What Jesus asked us was to repent, to be born again into a live where we love God and love each other.

I would invite you to reread the gospels again-

Addressing the statement scripturally involves examining Jesus' teachings in the Gospels regarding forgiveness, reconciliation with God, and the nature of repentance and new life in Him.

Scriptural Response
Jesus' Teachings on Forgiveness and Repentance:

Mark 1:15: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Jesus emphasizes repentance as a prerequisite for entering the kingdom of God. Repentance involves turning away from sin and turning towards God.
Luke 24:47: "And repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Repentance leads to the forgiveness of sins, a central theme in Jesus' ministry. He teaches that through repentance, sins are forgiven, emphasizing reconciliation with God.
Jesus' Emphasis on Love and New Life:

Matthew 22:37-39: "Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"

Jesus teaches that loving God and loving others summarize the entire law and the prophets. This love is central to the new life He offers.
John 3:3: "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.'"

Jesus speaks of the necessity of spiritual rebirth (being born again) for entering God's kingdom. This new birth involves a transformation of heart and life, rooted in faith and repentance.
Understanding Jesus' Approach
Substitutionary Atonement: While Jesus may not explicitly use the term "substitutionary atonement," His teachings and actions indicate its theological foundation:

John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
Jesus is identified as the Lamb of God who takes away sin, pointing to His sacrificial role in atoning for humanity's sins.
Repentance and Faith: Jesus' call to repentance and faith is not separate from His role as the Savior who atones for sins. Repentance (turning from sin) and faith (trust in Jesus' sacrificial work) are interwoven in His teachings for receiving forgiveness and new life.


Jesus' teachings in the Gospels emphasize both the necessity of repentance for forgiveness of sins and the transformative new life rooted in love for God and others. While He may not explicitly use the phrase "substitutionary atonement," His sacrificial role as the Lamb of God and His call to repentance and faith align with the biblical doctrine of atonement. Jesus' ministry underscores the holistic nature of salvation—forgiveness through His sacrificial death and new life through faith and transformation in Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I am just lost here. God spent a whole lot of time telling Moses about the building of a sanctuary.

Hi Cassandra and friends

God spent even more time inspiring the Old Testament for over 2,000 years.
If salvation is the central topic of the Bible, and blood atonement was an absolute requisite for our sins being forgiven, why didn't God teach that explicitly and repeatedly all over the Old Testament during those centuries?
God explicitly and repeatedly called Israel to repent, to abandon his bad ways, to stop doing evil... why in none of those occasions does YHWH explains the need of a substitutionary atonement?

Two of the texts in the Old Testament which deal with repentance more directly and extensively are Psalms 32 and 51
I will quote just some extracts, but I encourage you all to read them carefully when you have the time, praying to God for understanding.

PSALM 32

Blessed is he​

whose transgression is forgiven,​

whose sin is covered.​

Blessed is the man​

against whom the Lord does not count iniquity,​

and in whose spirit there is no deceit...​

...I acknowledged my sin to You,​

and my iniquity I did not conceal.​

I said, “I will confess​

my transgressions to the Lord,”​

and You forgave​

the iniquity of my sin. Selah​

How did David come to feel he had been forgiven? He confessed his transgressions. That's it. That's God's mercy.

PSALM 51

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions...​

​

... Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.​

... Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
.. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.​

... For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.​

Is David appealing to a substitute? How sure is David that God can blot out his transgressions by asking Him to do it with a "broken and contrite heart"?

 

[GodsGrace]

I open this thread after consultation with @Angelina.
The purpose is to provide my Christian brothers and sisters an opportunity to rehearse a defense of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

I will be presenting the following thesis:

God does not need a substitutionary atonement to forgive sins.
God used the concept and practices of substitutionary atonement as a didactic tool to meet specific ends at specific times. This is why it appears in the Bible.

It will be important to stick to the topic. Let's remember that by Forum policy we cannot discuss the Trinity or deity of Jesus. Otherwise the posts or the thread will be deleted (please see full policy in the sticky thread).
Whatever our understanding of the nature of God and Jesus, the topic here is whether God needs a substitutionary atonement to forgive our sins.

I support my proposition in these arguments

A. Jews don't believe and never believed that God needed animal sacrifices in order to forgive their sins.

A1. In the Old Testament, there are clear instances in which God forgives sins without requiring animal sacrifices, or even talking against the value of animal sacrifices.​

A2. Human beings commit sins almost every day. However, before Christ, the Jews never bothered to build sanctuaries in every village or city they lived in, especially those far from Jerusalem, in which animal sacrifices could be made.​

A3. Human beings commit sins almost every day. However, after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, Jews never bothered about building any other sanctuary with the same purpose. Today, Jews don't believe that animal sacrifices are needed to be forgiven.​

B. Although Jesus main mission was to save men, He didn't present substitutionary atonement as a requirement for salvation.

B1. Less than 0.001% of the verses of the Gospels, whose content was selected to believe in Christ and be saved, contain any reference to substitutionary atonement. In the 3 verses that refer to it, it is not presented as a required belief to have sins forgiven.​

B2. There are several clear declarations of Jesus on the topic of how God forgive sins. None of them presents substitutionary atonement.​

B3. There is no single instance in which Jesus requires such belief to a person who comes to Him to be healed or forgiven.​

B4. In none of the accounts of direct interaction between Jesus and his apostles after crucifixion and before ascending to heaven, Jesus asks them to teach substitutionary atonement to enable the remission of sins.​

B5. After Pentecost, the apostles do not preach substitutionary atonement as a requirement for the remission of sins.​

C. Once Paul enters into history, references to substitutionary atonement intend to keep united the church in the face of the Judaizing issue.

C1. Judaizing converts wanted new converts from Gentile background to make the trip to Jerusalem, among other practices.​

C2. By believing that Jesus occupies the place of the ancient lambs, both groups of converts unite around the love of Christ. So, an old symbol (which was external and divisive) is replaced by a new symbol (which is internal and unifying). A similar thing happens around at least two other symbols: circumcision and Sabbath keeping.​

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[Behold]

If salvation is the central topic of the Bible, and blood atonement was an absolute requisite for our sins being forgiven, why didn't God teach that explicitly and repeatedly all over the Old Testament during those centuries?

God did teach it, starting from Adam and Eve, where God slew animals, to give Adam and Eve a covering.. .(Animal skins).

Those animals were BLOOD Sacrifices, for Adam and Eve.

Then you have Moses and the Prophets and the Priests.

You had the blood sacrifice given once a year. and you have temporal sacrifices of blood, as doves and other animals that the Jews were selling in the "temple in Jerusalem" and Jesus ran them OUT of The Temple using a WHIP... to stop them from doing that, among other ways they were "defiling the Temple".

"without the shedding of BLOOD, there is no forgiveness"........and that was temporary, in the OT, but it become a Permanent Blood Sacrifice once Jesus was nailed to the Cross and died.

"Jesus is the one time Eternal Sacrifice FOR SIN"... .

He Sacrificed His Blood and Body....

Hebrews 9:12

12 ""Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Notice the " taking communion"......and get a clue, @Pancho Frijoles

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would invite you to reread the gospels again-

Addressing the statement scripturally involves examining Jesus' teachings in the Gospels regarding forgiveness, reconciliation with God, and the nature of repentance and new life in Him.

Jesus' teachings in the Gospels emphasize both the necessity of repentance for forgiveness of sins and the transformative new life rooted in love for God and others. While He may not explicitly use the phrase "substitutionary atonement," His sacrificial role as the Lamb of God and His call to repentance and faith align with the biblical doctrine of atonement. Jesus' ministry underscores the holistic nature of salvation—forgiveness through His sacrificial death and new life through faith and transformation in Him.

Hi Johann

Thanks for the thoughtful and extensive post.
As per the texts you have quoted, Jesus preached repentance and forgiveness. This is pivotal to his teaching.
In none of the texts you have quoted, not a single one, Jesus teaches that God need blood of an innocent being (ie a lamb, or Jesus Himself) to forgive sins. None of his parables, none of his sermons, none of the episodes when He heals or forgives a person.

Jesus called Israel to repentance just as Jonah called the Ninivites to repentance.
Israelites had to confess their sins and abandon their bad ways. Ninivites had to confess their sins and abandon their bad ways.
Israelites did not need sacrifices, as Ninivites did not need sacrifices.

So, based on the texts that you have kindly quoted, "substitutionary atonement" played no role in Jesus teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

I open this thread after consultation with @Angelina.
The purpose is to provide my Christian brothers and sisters an opportunity to rehearse a defense of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

I will be presenting the following thesis:

God does not need a substitutionary atonement to forgive sins.
God used the concept and practices of substitutionary atonement as a didactic tool to meet specific ends at specific times. This is why it appears in the Bible.

It will be important to stick to the topic. Let's remember that by Forum policy we cannot discuss the Trinity or deity of Jesus. Otherwise the posts or the thread will be deleted (please see full policy in the sticky thread).
Whatever our understanding of the nature of God and Jesus, the topic here is whether God needs a substitutionary atonement to forgive our sins.

I support my proposition in these arguments

A. Jews don't believe and never believed that God needed animal sacrifices in order to forgive their sins.

A1. In the Old Testament, there are clear instances in which God forgives sins without requiring animal sacrifices, or even talking against the value of animal sacrifices.​

A2. Human beings commit sins almost every day. However, before Christ, the Jews never bothered to build sanctuaries in every village or city they lived in, especially those far from Jerusalem, in which animal sacrifices could be made.​

A3. Human beings commit sins almost every day. However, after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, Jews never bothered about building any other sanctuary with the same purpose. Today, Jews don't believe that animal sacrifices are needed to be forgiven.​

B. Although Jesus main mission was to save men, He didn't present substitutionary atonement as a requirement for salvation.

B1. Less than 0.001% of the verses of the Gospels, whose content was selected to believe in Christ and be saved, contain any reference to substitutionary atonement. In the 3 verses that refer to it, it is not presented as a required belief to have sins forgiven.​

B2. There are several clear declarations of Jesus on the topic of how God forgive sins. None of them presents substitutionary atonement.​

B3. There is no single instance in which Jesus requires such belief to a person who comes to Him to be healed or forgiven.​

B4. In none of the accounts of direct interaction between Jesus and his apostles after crucifixion and before ascending to heaven, Jesus asks them to teach substitutionary atonement to enable the remission of sins.​

B5. After Pentecost, the apostles do not preach substitutionary atonement as a requirement for the remission of sins.​

C. Once Paul enters into history, references to substitutionary atonement intend to keep united the church in the face of the Judaizing issue.

C1. Judaizing converts wanted new converts from Gentile background to make the trip to Jerusalem, among other practices.​

C2. By believing that Jesus occupies the place of the ancient lambs, both groups of converts unite around the love of Christ. So, an old symbol (which was external and divisive) is replaced by a new symbol (which is internal and unifying). A similar thing happens around at least two other symbols: circumcision and Sabbath keeping.​

​

​

​

Hi Pancho
Just getting here.
I'd like to confirm what you mean by SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT.

Are you referring to one of the atonement theories as put forth by Stephen Morrison or is this a phrase by you?
Do you mean that Jesus took the place of an animal sacrifice in the OT?

Which of the above?

If it's an atonement theory, I don't know about one that is called SUBST ATONEMENT....

 

[GodsGrace]

My thesis is that Jesus is NOT teaching, through Paul, that God needs blood from another being to forgive our sins.
My thesis is that it is much more consistent with the rest of the Bible, with history, and with reason, to think that substitutionary atonement was a figure, a tool, a concept, used by Paul to stop Judaizing converts to demand ex-Gentile converts from following the Law of Moses.

In an apologetic forum, we have the opportunity to present arguments and refute arguments.

Just going through.
I'd say it goes even beyond what you state above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Johann

Thanks for the thoughtful and extensive post.
As per the texts you have quoted, Jesus preached repentance and forgiveness. This is pivotal to his teaching.
In none of the texts you have quoted, not a single one, Jesus teaches that God need blood of an innocent being (ie a lamb, or Jesus Himself) to forgive sins. None of his parables, none of his sermons, none of the episodes when He heals or forgives a person.

Jesus called Israel to repentance just as Jonah called the Ninivites to repentance.
Israelites had to confess their sins and abandon their bad ways. Ninivites had to confess their sins and abandon their bad ways.
Israelites did not need sacrifices, as Ninivites did not need sacrifices.

So, based on the texts that you have kindly quoted, "substitutionary atonement" played no role in Jesus teachings.

OK
Starting to get an idea but will wait for your reply...

 

[Matthias]

This may sound harsh but I think it’s something that has to be said: Don’t allow the devil to tell you what the Bible really says.

 

[Johann]

In none of the texts you have quoted, not a single one, Jesus teaches that God need blood of an innocent being (ie a lamb, or Jesus Himself) to forgive sins.

Jesus called Israel to repentance just as Jonah called the Ninivites to repentance.
Israelites had to confess their sins and abandon their bad ways. Ninivites had to confess their sins and abandon their bad ways.
Israelites did not need sacrifices, as Ninivites did not need sacrifices.

So, based on the texts that you have kindly quoted, "substitutionary atonement" played no role in Jesus teachings.

According to Christian theology, God's requirement for the shedding of Jesus' blood is understood within the context of the New Testament teachings on atonement and redemption. Here are some key points:

Biblical Foundation:

Hebrews 9:22: "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
This verse highlights the principle established in the Old Testament sacrificial system, where blood was necessary for forgiveness of sins.
Jesus' Sacrificial Role:

John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
Jesus is described as the sacrificial Lamb whose death atones for the sins of humanity.
Purpose of Jesus' Sacrifice:

Romans 5:8-9: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is understood as satisfying God's justice and reconciling humanity to God, providing forgiveness and salvation.
Divine Plan and Love:

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
God's sending of Jesus to die on the cross is an expression of His love and a central part of His plan for salvation.

In Christian belief, while God did not "require" the blood of Jesus in a punitive sense, Jesus' sacrificial death is understood as fulfilling God's plan for redemption and forgiveness of sins. It demonstrates God's love and mercy towards humanity, providing a way for reconciliation and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 26:28:

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Mark 14:24:

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."
Luke 22:20:

"This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
John 19:34:

"But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water."
Acts 20:28:

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood."
Romans 3:25:

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Ephesians 1:7:

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
Colossians 1:20:

"And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Hebrews 9:14:

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"
1 Peter 1:18-19:

"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."

These Scriptures highlight the significance of Jesus shedding His blood as central to Christian belief in redemption, forgiveness of sins, and reconciliation with God.

Guess you have it wrong.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

"without the shedding of BLOOD, there is no forgiveness"........and that was temporary, in the OT,

Shedding of blood was never necessary for forgiveness, as the same author of the epistle to Hebrews states some verses later.

If Jews really had believed that blood shedding was mandatory, why didn't they build sanctuaries and had priests in every single village they inhabited? How did they expect their daily sins to be forgiven?

Imagine a woman that repents from having spread a fake news among other women at the village where she lives, at a distance of two days from the Temple of Jerusalem. Did she believe that she had to leave her children, her husband, her responsibilities, use her savings and make a trip to Jerusalem as soon as possible, so that God could forgive her sin?

Why didn't Jews build sanctuaries in Babylon during the exile? How their sins were forgiven during those 70 years?
They didn't need to build a great structure, did they? A simple tent would be sufficient.
Why didn't Jews build sanctuaries for animal sacrifices in Asia, Greece, Syria, Rome?
Do we understand what it took to travel from any of those places to Jerusalem? A lot of preparation, money, risk taking. How could a Jew sleep at night thinking that God had not forgiven the sin he had committed this morning, but until he could make the trip to Jerusalem?

The fact that Jews did not build thousands of sanctuaries and had thousands of priests all over the Middle East and Mediterranean world, speaks loudly of the fact that they did believe that God could forgive their sins out of His Mercy, without the need of bloody sacrifices.

 

[Behold]

Shedding of blood was never necessary for forgiveness,

You just denied the Cross, again.

Jesus shed His BLOOD, as this...

"without the shedding of BLOOD, there is no Forgiveness of SIN".

Hebrews 9:12

12 ""Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This may sound harsh but I think it’s something that has to be said: Don’t allow the devil to tell you what the Bible really says.

Don't allow the devil tell you that God needs innocent blood to forgive you, when the Bible clearly says God needs your broken and contrite heart.

Don't allow the devil tell you that God demands innocent blood in exchange for mercy, when the Bible clearly says God demands, in exchange for mercy, that you show mercy to others.

In this thread, I am trying to support all my propositions with the Bible, history and reason. I am open to refutation. This is what apologetics is all about.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

"without the shedding of BLOOD, there is no Forgiveness of SIN".

Hebrews 9:12

Please read my post above. I appreciate your explanation on why Jews did not built sanctuaries to perform animal sacrifices, if "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

According to Christian theology, God's requirement for the shedding of Jesus' blood is understood within the context of the New Testament teachings on atonement and redemption. Here are some key points:

Biblical Foundation:

Hebrews 9:22: "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
This verse highlights the principle established in the Old Testament sacrificial system, where blood was necessary for forgiveness of sins.

The same author, few verses later, explains: For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. (Heb 10:4)
So, did God need animal sacrifices to forgive sins?
I would like to know your comments on

• why David did not believe that sacrifices were necessary for God to forgive his sins
• why Ninevites were forgiven without any blood from animal sacrifices
• why Jews didn't build thousands of sanctuaries, one in every village

 

[GTW27]

This may sound harsh but I think it’s something that has to be said: Don’t allow the devil to tell you what the Bible really says.

Or to change this simple prayer:

Holy Father, please forgive my sins and wash me clean.
Cover me with The Blood that you that You shed at Calvary upon that cross.
This I ask in Jesus Holy Name.

 

[RedFan]

The same author, few verses later, explains: For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. (Heb 10:4)
So, did God need animal sacrifices to forgive sins?

No. God doesn't "need" anything; He can structure forgiveness of sin (or non-forgiveness, for that matter) any way He chooses, contingent on any thing He chooses (or on nothing at all).

So the question really should be, did God CHOOSE to condition forgiveness of sin on animal sacrifices? (My answer to that one is No as well.)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Or to change this simple prayer:

Holy Father, please forgive my sins and wash me clean.
Cover me with The Blood that you that You shed at Calvary upon that cross.
This I ask in Jesus Holy Name.

Jesus taught us to pray
And forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors.

 

[Johann]

• why David did not believe that sacrifices were necessary for God to forgive his sins
• why Ninevites were forgiven without any blood from animal sacrifices
• why Jews didn't build thousands of sanctuaries, one in every village

You need to come out from under the Old and embrace Jesus of the New-

David's understanding and the forgiveness granted to the Ninevites without sacrifices, as well as the single sanctuary for the Jews, are grounded in different theological contexts and historical circumstances within the Old Testament.

David and Sacrifices:
David's Understanding:

Psalm 51:16-17: "For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."
David acknowledges that God desires genuine repentance and a humble heart more than ritualistic sacrifices. He emphasizes the spiritual attitude of the worshiper over external ceremonies.
Theological Context:

Sacrifices in the Old Testament served as a means of atonement and reconciliation with God, prescribed under the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 4:1-35). However, sincere repentance and faith were always central to God's requirement for forgiveness (Psalm 51:17).
Ninevites and Forgiveness:
Jonah's Message:

Jonah 3:5-10: The people of Nineveh repented upon Jonah's preaching, from the greatest to the least. God saw their repentance and withheld the judgment He had threatened.
Absence of Sacrifice:

The narrative of Nineveh illustrates God's willingness to forgive upon genuine repentance, even without the offering of sacrifices. Their repentance and turning from evil moved God to show mercy (Jonah 3:10).
One Sanctuary for the Jews:
Historical Context:

Deuteronomy 12:5-6: God commanded the Israelites to centralize their worship at one place of His choosing after entering the Promised Land. This was to prevent idolatry and to unify worship (Deuteronomy 12:5-14).
Purpose of One Sanctuary:

The central sanctuary, initially at Shiloh and later at Jerusalem, was where sacrifices were offered according to God's instructions. It emphasized the unity of worship and adherence to God's prescribed rituals (1 Samuel 1:3).
Conclusion:
David's perspective on sacrifices reflects an understanding that genuine repentance and a contrite heart are fundamental to God's forgiveness, beyond mere ritualistic acts. The Ninevites' forgiveness without sacrifices demonstrates God's sovereignty and mercy upon true repentance. The single sanctuary for the Jews centralized worship and ensured fidelity to God's commands, emphasizing unity and obedience. These aspects collectively highlight different facets of Old Testament theology regarding forgiveness, worship, and obedience to God's instructions.
In the New Testament, Jesus expands upon and fulfills the principles and practices regarding forgiveness, sacrifice, and worship found in the Old Testament. Here’s how Jesus addresses these aspects:

Jesus and Sacrifices:
Fulfillment of Sacrificial System:

Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Jesus' life, death, and resurrection fulfill the sacrificial system of the Old Testament by serving as the ultimate and perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins (Hebrews 10:10).
Focus on Spiritual Reality:

Mark 12:33: "To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Jesus emphasizes the internal disposition of the heart and genuine love for God and others over external rituals, echoing the sentiments expressed by David in Psalm 51.
Jesus' Teaching on Forgiveness:
Authority to Forgive Sins:

Mark 2:10: "But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the man."
Jesus demonstrates His authority to forgive sins directly, highlighting the centrality of His role in reconciling humanity to God through His sacrificial death.
Call to Repentance and Faith:

Luke 24:47: "and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
Jesus commissions His disciples to proclaim repentance and forgiveness of sins in His name, emphasizing the importance of repentance as a response to God's offer of forgiveness through Him.
Worship in Spirit and Truth:

New Covenant Worship:
John 4:23-24: "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Jesus teaches that worship is not confined to a specific physical location (like the temple in Jerusalem) but is about the heart and spirit of the worshiper, reflecting the spiritual reality of God's presence.

Jesus' teachings in the New Testament fulfill and deepen the understanding of forgiveness, sacrifice, and worship found in the Old Testament. He fulfills the sacrificial system through His own sacrifice, emphasizes repentance and faith as necessary for forgiveness, and teaches that true worship is rooted in the heart and spirit. Jesus' life and teachings provide the ultimate revelation of God's plan for redemption and reconciliation, inviting all people to come to Him in faith and receive forgiveness of sins.

Key Points in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Christ's Death and Resurrection:

Verse 3-4: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."
Paul emphasizes the foundational elements of the gospel: Christ's sacrificial death for our sins, His burial, and His resurrection on the third day as prophesied in Scripture.
Witnesses to the Resurrection:

Verse 5-8: "and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
Paul affirms the reality of Christ's resurrection by listing witnesses who saw Him alive after His death, including himself.
The Gospel Message
The gospel, as articulated in 1 Corinthians 15, centers on the following truths:

Christ's Death: He died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins, fulfilling Old Testament prophecies (Isaiah 53:5-6, Psalm 22).

Burial: His body was buried, confirming His physical death.

Resurrection: On the third day, He rose from the dead, defeating sin, death, and the power of the grave (Acts 2:24, Romans 6:9).

Application and Significance
1 Corinthians 15 underscores the essential elements of Christian faith:

Justification: Through Christ's death, our sins are forgiven, and we are reconciled to God (Romans 5:8-11).

Victory: His resurrection assures believers of eternal life and victory over death (1 Corinthians 15:54-57).


The gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15 encapsulates the heart of Christian belief: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, providing salvation and eternal life to all who believe in Him. This chapter serves as a foundational declaration of the core Christian faith, emphasizing the centrality of Christ's death and resurrection in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

And it includes the Atonement-the Cross, and resurrection of Yeshua HaMashiach

 

[Matthias]

Don't allow the devil tell you that God needs innocent blood to forgive you, when the Bible clearly says God needs your broken and contrite heart.

Don't allow the devil tell you that God demands innocent blood in exchange for mercy, when the Bible clearly says God demands, in exchange for mercy, that you show mercy to others.

In this thread, I am trying to support all my propositions with the Bible, history and reason. I am open to refutation. This is what apologetics is all about.

You’ve been refuted and don’t recognize it.

What this has become is a debate. You’ve dug in your heels, as all debaters do.

I’ve done what I’m required to do. If you haven’t found it persuasive - and you haven’t found it persuasive - then it would be foolish of you to believe that which you aren’t persuaded is true and believe is a lie.

You come to me as an outsider. Time and again you’ve offered me “another Jesus”. You‘ve found something to follow which you‘re persuaded is better than Christianity, better than Islam too. You’ve taken what you think is the best from both, mixed them together, and pronounced it good.

Now you want to explain, even to insist, what the Bible really means to those who haven’t gone where you are. Your lens is focused differently and it shows.

Am I saying that you are the devil? No.

Am I saying that the devil has deceived you and is using you? Yes.

Am I saying that you will be fine without the blood of Messiah? No.

Am I saying that you will be fine rejecting the bodily resurrection of the Messiah? No.

Am I saying any of this because I don’t like you? No.

I’m saying all of this because that is what the Messiah would have me say to anyone, to everyone, who rejects the need for substitutionary atonement and the bodily resurrection of Messiah in order to be saved.

You are teaching against the Bible, believing that you are teaching with the Bible.

You haven’t learned the lesson from the Hebrew Bible (in fact, you deny that it is even there) and so you cannot see that the correct application, the fulfillment, is made in the New Testament, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Without it the new covenant isn’t in-place.

It’s one thing not to see it. It’s something else altogether to teach against it.

This is a salvation issue. Baha’i rejects that notion. My response is to reject Baha’i.

That leaves you happily sitting in harm‘s way, telling the savior you don’t want, nor do you need, his blood that was shed for all who would believe and be saved. Thinking yourself saved, you are lost. That leaves me sorrowful and in anguish for you, something which you must feel is misguided and unwarranted.