Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement
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Great example of what I just posted.
Why do you want to start an argument?
You don't even know me....
Johann
Well-Known Member
Oh, don't mind me, I'm here and there and everywhere.
I might know you, actually, from CFnet?
You just seemed very confrontational.
I hate arguing.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Like I've said-here and there, to see where I fit in the body of Christ Jesus-other than that, don't mind me.
Adieu
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
We all fit...even if we don't agree with each other.
Thanks for your kind words in regard to the faith I profess, Godsgrace.
My apologies, Godgrace. I haven’t been able to cope appropriately with all posts from our friends.
Thanks for letting me know., Godsgrace.
I didn’t know about this alternative theory. Please help me in understanding the difference among theories of atonement.
Hi Matthias
My apologies for not being able to cope with all posts and questions.
It is my understanding that Gnostic Christians were also a very heterogeneous group in terms of beliefs and practices.
So I can’t rule out coincidences, especially in terminology and imagery, as Gnosticism also had influence on early Christians, and even early Muslims, both for good and for bad.
Bodily resurrection would be the subject of another thread and I haven ‘t reflected on the topic as I wished.
I do see a semantic connection between crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to heaven, in terms of how Paul uses those terms to describe the radical change of life in the believers.
even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and He raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:5-7)
In a deep sense, the Christian is already crucified with Christ, resurrected and ascended to heaven.
Such theological principle is not supported by the Bible, or by reason.
God does not require a perfect sacrifice. Such demand would mean that God does not forgive in reality, but engages into a transaction.
The Bible compares the forgiveness of God to the forgiveness of a father. (psalm 103:10-13)
Johann: Remember your childhood. What happened when you were unable to repair or undo a damage you had caused? Did your father demand that your siblings or friends pay on your behalf?
10 He does not treat us according to our sins,
nor repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 Like a father shows compassion to his children,
so the Lord gives compassion to those who fear Him.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I like the above Pancho. I would go a step further and say he is compassionate to those who don't fear him also. He forgives before he is asked. That's what love does.
I remember the story of the Prodigal Son, his Father ran to meet him while he was still a long way off.
Does this mean that all will actually receive eternal life at the end of the day? No, I don't think so. There are many who are offended by love, in fact they hate it and distance themselves from it .....and God will not force life on them.
Distancing oneself from the source of life ultimately results in no life ie, death.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I haven't followed the whole thread but this is totally untrue. GE 3:21 (REV) Yahweh God made tunics of skin for Adam and for his wife and clothed them. This was after the Original Sin, the consequence of sin. Do you suppose the skin was given by the animals without sacrifice?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Most definitely supported by Scripture--
Biblical Basis for Sacrificial Atonement
Old Testament Context: In the Hebrew Bible, the concept of atonement is closely linked with the sacrificial system instituted in the Torah. Leviticus 17:11 states, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." Here, the blood of animals is seen as a means to cover or atone for sins.
Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur): Leviticus 16 describes the Day of Atonement, where the high priest would offer sacrifices for the sins of the people. This ritual underscores the idea that atonement required a sacrificial offering.
New Testament Context: In Christian theology, the concept of a perfect sacrifice is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:10-14 articulates this belief, stating, "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." This passage presents Jesus as the ultimate, perfect sacrifice for sin.
Theological Interpretations
Forgiveness and Grace: Some theologians argue that God's forgiveness is ultimately rooted in His grace and mercy, rather than in the sacrificial system. For instance, Psalm 51, where David seeks forgiveness for his sins, emphasizes repentance and God's mercy without mentioning a specific sacrifice.
Prophetic Insights: The prophets also hinted at a deeper understanding of forgiveness. Hosea 6:6 states, "For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings." This suggests that God values mercy and a relationship with His people more than ritual sacrifices.
Ransom Theory vs. Penal Substitution: There are different theories within Christian theology regarding atonement. The Ransom Theory, prevalent in early Christianity, posits that Christ's death was a ransom paid to free humanity from bondage to sin and death. In contrast, the Penal Substitution Theory, more common in Reformed traditions, sees Christ's death as bearing the punishment for sin on behalf of humanity.
Reason and Forgiveness
From a philosophical and ethical perspective, the notion that forgiveness must be tied to a perfect sacrifice can be seen as problematic. True forgiveness, it is argued, should not require an exchange or transaction but should be an act of mercy and grace. If God requires a perfect sacrifice, it might imply that forgiveness is conditional and transactional rather than freely given.
Divine Mercy: Many theologians and philosophers emphasize that true forgiveness from a divine being should be an act of unconditional love and mercy. This is consistent with the broader scriptural theme of God's steadfast love and faithfulness.
Ethical Forgiveness: From an ethical standpoint, forgiveness is often viewed as a process that does not necessarily depend on the actions of the wrongdoer. It involves letting go of resentment and offering grace, which can be seen as a higher moral ground.
The biblical and theological discussions around forgiveness and atonement are nuanced and multifaceted. While the sacrificial system in the Hebrew Bible laid the groundwork for understanding atonement, the prophetic writings and the New Testament reinterpret and expand on these concepts. Ultimately, whether forgiveness requires a perfect sacrifice or is an act of pure grace remains a profound theological question that continues to inspire diverse interpretations and beliefs within the faith community.
Having said that---
John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'" This verse highlights Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb who removes the sin of humanity.
Romans 3:25: "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith." This verse emphasizes Jesus' sacrificial role in atonement.
Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." This passage underscores the sacrificial love of Christ.
1 Corinthians 5:7: "Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." Paul identifies Jesus as the Passover lamb whose sacrifice brings new life.
Ephesians 5:2: "And walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." This verse speaks of Jesus’ self-sacrifice out of love.
Philippians 2:8: "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!" Here, Paul highlights Jesus' obedience and sacrificial death.
1 Peter 1:18-19: "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed... but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." Peter emphasizes the value and purity of Jesus' sacrificial blood.
1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." John presents Jesus as the universal atoning sacrifice.
1 John 4:10: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." This verse reiterates the sacrificial nature of Jesus’ mission.
Revelation 5:9: "And they sang a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.'" This passage portrays Jesus as the sacrificial lamb whose death redeems people from all over the world.
These scriptures collectively present a comprehensive picture of Jesus’ sacrifice, its theological significance, and its implications for humanity according to Christian belief.
Which goes contrary what YOU wrote---
Such theological principle is not supported by the Bible, or by reason.
God does not require a perfect sacrifice. Such demand would mean that God does not forgive in reality, but engages into a transaction.
Just showed you Scriptures the JESUS was our ultimate Sacrifice
Dear Johann and friends all
Thanks for bringing these biblical texts to the discussion. I will show that none of them teaches that God requires a blood substitutionary atonement to forgive a sinner. I will start with two assumptions that I think you share with me:
- We believers think that God of the Bible cannot contradict Himself in a vital, central teaching.
- All things being equal, the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true (Occham's razor)
This is the story of Dr Steinmann, a Jew and your hypothetical dentist.
Dr Steinman is considered by his family and patients a good man, but this time he did something wrong. He was running into financial trouble, and deceived you into accepting a very complex dental surgical procedure, so that he could charge you a high amount of money. One month after the procedure, Dr Steinmann comes to you sincerely sorry and confesses all. He pays you back the money he took from you, plus a compensation, and offers to treat you and your family for free for the rest of his life.
You, as a good Christian, and considering the sincerity of his repentance, forgive him. You won't take any legal action.
Dr Steinmann, in his bedroom, asks God to forgive his sins. After that, he feels relieved and determined to be honest with his patients for the rest of his life.
You have forgiven Dr Steinmann. Has God forgiven him? Is it possible that you can show more mercy than God? Let's examine this under the light of the verses you have presented.
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There is more than one.
I'm going to post a link here to a summary of the 7 theories.
There is none called the Substitution Theory, so you might mean the Satisfaction Theory or maybe
the Penal Substitution Theory, judging from your explanation of the Prodigal Son were that theory correct.
So I might be jumping ahead of myself, but of all the theories, the Penal Substitution Theory is the least in alignment with the character of God.
It's a variant of the Satisfaction Theory but much less merciful and displays a God that is rather mean-hearted.
This is because it was taught by some after the reformation. In the Satisfaction Theory God demands some kind of payment because He is just and requires it....in the Penal Substitution Theory God's wrath must be appeased, so Jesus is punished in our place.
Jesus' death would satisfy God in both theories but in different ways.
Here's the link: (it's actually a synopsis of the book):
7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison
7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison
www.sdmorrison.org
I will group together the verses that explicitly compare the sacrifice of Christ with the sacrifice of animals ordered in the book of Leviticus.
Dr Steinmann is not a Judaizing how demands other people to make a trip to the Jerusalem to offer sacrifices. He himself does not rely in the value of any slaughtered lamb to become the subject of God's mercy. So, all these seven verses say nothing to him. Their symbolism is not applicable to him.
You have forgiven Dr Steinman. Has God forgiven Dr Steinmann? Are you more merciful than God?
- Hebrews 10:10-14 "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
- John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
- Romans 3:25: "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
- 1 Corinthians 5:7: "Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed."
- 1 Peter 1:18-19: "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed... but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."
- 1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
- Revelation 5:9: "And they sang a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.'"
Dr Steinmann is not a Judaizing how demands other people to make a trip to the Jerusalem to offer sacrifices. He himself does not rely in the value of any slaughtered lamb to become the subject of God's mercy. So, all these seven verses say nothing to him. Their symbolism is not applicable to him.
You have forgiven Dr Steinman. Has God forgiven Dr Steinmann? Are you more merciful than God?
Here is the examination of the reminding verses
Ephesians 5:2: "And walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."
Certainly Jesus sacrificed himself out of love. Love for people like you, and people like Dr Steinmann. What does this mean in terms of the forgiveness that God extends to your dentist?
Well, you love Dr Steinmann. Jesus loves him.
You want him to be forgiven. Jesus wants him to be forgiven. Dr Steinmann himself wants to be forgiven.
So, who is stopping him from being forgiven? Nobody. Where are those who want to throw stones on him? Nowhere.
Philippians 2:8: "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
You want to be obedient to death. Dr Steinmann now wants to be obedient to death.
Therefore, both of you are determined to follow the example of Christ, regardless of the ideas you harbor around Christ.
Both understand only God can gives you to power to accomplish that. Both of you pray for that.
So, what is stopping any of you to be obedient to death?
1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
Jesus sacrificed for the whole world, not just for your sins.
Dr Steinmann is a member of "the whole world". He has repented. You have forgiven his sin. God has forgiven his sin. Whatever your dentist thinks about what atonement is (if symbolic, if literal, or nothing at all) he is member of the "whole word" and forgiven.
1 John 4:10: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."
Same as above. You love God and you love your dentist. That's why you have forgiven him, without asking him to first believe in the value of the blood of lambs and bulls, and then on the value of the blood of Jesus as his replacement in the punishment he deserves for having deceived you into the expensive surgical procedure.
Has God forgiven him? Are you more merciful than God?
Ephesians 5:2: "And walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."
Certainly Jesus sacrificed himself out of love. Love for people like you, and people like Dr Steinmann. What does this mean in terms of the forgiveness that God extends to your dentist?
Well, you love Dr Steinmann. Jesus loves him.
You want him to be forgiven. Jesus wants him to be forgiven. Dr Steinmann himself wants to be forgiven.
So, who is stopping him from being forgiven? Nobody. Where are those who want to throw stones on him? Nowhere.
Philippians 2:8: "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
You want to be obedient to death. Dr Steinmann now wants to be obedient to death.
Therefore, both of you are determined to follow the example of Christ, regardless of the ideas you harbor around Christ.
Both understand only God can gives you to power to accomplish that. Both of you pray for that.
So, what is stopping any of you to be obedient to death?
1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
Jesus sacrificed for the whole world, not just for your sins.
Dr Steinmann is a member of "the whole world". He has repented. You have forgiven his sin. God has forgiven his sin. Whatever your dentist thinks about what atonement is (if symbolic, if literal, or nothing at all) he is member of the "whole word" and forgiven.
1 John 4:10: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."
Same as above. You love God and you love your dentist. That's why you have forgiven him, without asking him to first believe in the value of the blood of lambs and bulls, and then on the value of the blood of Jesus as his replacement in the punishment he deserves for having deceived you into the expensive surgical procedure.
Has God forgiven him? Are you more merciful than God?
I agree, my friend. Thanks for the thought.
I think God is wise enough and powerful enough to persuade people into salvation without forcing them.
Coca Cola's executives have been able to persuade millions of people to buy their products, without forcing them.
God is infinitely wiser than Coca Cola executives, and has all eternity at his disposal.
I guess everybody in this Forum acknowledges that God is All Powerful, All Wise. So, everybody in this forum believes God can find a way to persuade everyone without forcing them. The point is, Does God want to save everyone? Well, I would say saving people is what God enjoys the most. He is persistent. He does not accept a "No" as a response.
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance.
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I agree with you 100% on this conclusion.
Please notice that, among the different facets of Old Testament theology regarding forgiveness, you call one of them "fundamental".
This is my whole point. What is fundamental is fundamental. The rest are didactic tools: symbolisms, rituals, metaphors, analogies.
Jesus didn't add "substitutory atonement" to what was fundamental in the Old Testament.
The New Testament adds only alegories based on a shared language and imagery. It doesn't change the fundamentals: a broken and contrite heart. God's undeserved mercy.
Serving as the ultimate and perfect metaphor, or symbol, of a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
If this had a literal meaning, Jesus and his apostles would have taught it explicitly, and repeatedly. Furthermore, it would have been taught since the beginning of time to all peoples on earth.
The ancient Chinese knew that, if a man steals property from another man, the first man has to confess and repent and chance his ways.
The ancient Chinese, though, didn't know that a third party, an innocent man, has to be punished so that the first man can be forgiven.
This proves the striking contrast between a universal principle revealed by God to all men for salvation, and an analogy which works in a given culture and context.
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