Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Pancho Frijoles]

When considering other paths to forgiveness of sin in the OT, including Exodus 30:11-16 (paying money), Leviticus 5:11-13 (burning flour by the poor), or more generally, 2 Chronicles 7:14, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Isaiah 1:11, and similar verses suggesting that the Lord does not delight in burnt offerings, there are several possible ways to react. One is, of course, to conclude that the author of Hebrews 9:22 just got it wrong. Another is to strain to reinterpret the verse. And a third is to contextualize the OT “exceptions” as non-exceptions due to special circumstances, express or implied.

This doesn't work with NT teachings on forgiveness without the shedding of blood. The obvious leading candidate is in the Sermon on the Mount, right at the end of the Lord’s Prayer, where Jesus is quoted as saying “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you” (Matt. 6:14).

Good morning, RedFan and @Matthias

In such a topic as important as salvation, I wouldn't think that God contradicts himself by placing an absolute requirement here, that is not a requirement there.

We have seen two positions in this apologetic thread, with arguments accompanied by biblical verses.

• Blood atonement is required. Without it forgiveness is not possible.
• Blood atonement is not required. Forgiveness is the result of God's mercy, not of a transaction.

I would ask you all to make yourself these questions:

Which one is easier to understand for everybody, including the illiterate, the seeker* and the children?
Which one is more consistent across the 3000 years of the period considered in the Bible?
Which one is more directly taught by Jesus, in sermons dedicated to the specific topic?
Which one reflects better the character of God?
Which one allows us better to see people from different religions as our brothers?

*I don't know what's the best term in English for a person who is interested in learning about Christ for the first time. I'm using "seeker" as a placeholder.

 

[Johann]

Serving as the ultimate and perfect metaphor, or symbol, of a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

I don't want to have a back and forth @Pancho Frijoles-


Text: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Commentary: This verse is one of the clearest affirmations of the exclusivity of Jesus as the path to God. Jesus' declaration emphasizes that He is the sole mediator between humanity and God.
Acts 4:12:

Text: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
Commentary: The apostles Peter and John, speaking before the Sanhedrin, assert that Jesus is the exclusive source of salvation.
1 Timothy 2:5:

Text: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."
Commentary: Paul reiterates the unique role of Jesus as the mediator who bridges the gap between God and humanity.
John 3:16-18:

Text: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
Commentary: This passage emphasizes belief in Jesus as the criterion for receiving eternal life and escaping condemnation.
Theological Perspective
Exclusivity of Christ:

Many Christian theologians argue that the exclusivity of Jesus as the way to eternal life is foundational to the Christian faith. This belief is based on the premise that Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection are the unique and definitive acts of reconciliation between God and humanity.
Universal Need for Salvation:

According to Christian doctrine, all humans are in need of salvation due to sin, and this salvation is only available through Jesus Christ. Romans 3:23 states, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Missionary Imperative:

The Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20, where Jesus commands His disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations," underscores the belief that knowledge of and faith in Jesus is essential for salvation, motivating evangelism and missionary work.
Comparative Religion Perspective
Christianity and Other Religions:
Christianity's claim of exclusivity contrasts with the pluralistic approach of many other religions and philosophies, which may view multiple paths to the divine or emphasize different aspects of spiritual enlightenment and salvation.

The belief that "Jesus is the only way to eternal life and to no other religion" is deeply rooted in Christian scripture and tradition. Key passages such as John 14:6, Acts 4:12, and 1 Timothy 2:5 affirm this exclusivity, which has profound implications for Christian theology, evangelism, and interfaith dialogue.

Shalom
Have a good day.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul’s letters present Christ’s death as representative rather than substitutional (precisely what we would expect from a rabbi steeped in the sacrificial tradition of Israel). 2 Cor. 5:14’s “one has died for all, therefore all have died” (as opposed to “therefore all did not need to die”) suggests this view. Rom. 8:3’s “sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us (as opposed to “might be fulfilled for us”) who walk not by the flesh but by the spirit” suggests it. Gal. 2:20’s “I am crucified with Christ” (as opposed to “Christ is crucified in my stead”) suggests it.

I have no doubt that when Paul wrote “For I delivered to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3), he was relating the teachings of Christ then in currency. Similar teachings were eventually recorded in Matt. 20:28 and Mark 10:45: “The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” – but the gospels’ use of the preposition ἀντὶ (translated as “for”) has the connotation “instead of.” By contrast, 1 Cor. 15:3 uses ὑπὲρ (also translated as “for”) – which has the connotation “on behalf of.” Even 1 Tim. 2:6, the only other instance of a “ransom” analogy anywhere in Paul’s letters, uses ὑπὲρ. Never once does Paul use ἀντὶ.

The subtle difference between substitutional atonement (“Christ took my place, so I didn’t have to die”) and representational atonement (“Christ died, and I died with him”) does not get us all the way home. But it's a start.

I couldn't argue that Christ's death was "representational" because that isn't what Paul means by "one died, therefore all died." Paul is thinking of Jesus' statement concerning his followers as recorded in Mark 8:34. "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." An essential marker of Jesus' followers is Jesus' willingness to set aside his own life to do the will of the Father.

Mark 14:36 And He was saying, “Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.”​

In that same way, Jesus' followers take up their cross by adopting Jesus' attitude as Paul says in Romans 8.

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

In order for Jesus to die for us, he submitted to the will of the Father. The same is true for his followers, who also "die" by taking up their own crosses, whatever that may entail, and saying, "Not my will, but Yours be done."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sun comes at a cost. The price must be payed. That’s redemption

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Matthias]

Good morning, RedFan and @Matthias

In such a topic as important as salvation, I wouldn't think that God contradicts himself by placing an absolute requirement here, that is not a requirement there.

We have seen two positions in this apologetic thread, with arguments accompanied by biblical verses.

• Blood atonement is required. Without it forgiveness is not possible.
• Blood atonement is not required. Forgiveness is the result of God's mercy, not of a transaction.

I would ask you all to make yourself these questions:

Which one is easier to understand for everybody, including the illiterate, the seeker* and the children?
Which one is more consistent across the 3000 years of the period considered in the Bible?
Which one is more directly taught by Jesus, in sermons dedicated to the specific topic?
Which one reflects better the character of God?
Which one allows us better to see people from different religions as our brothers?

*I don't know what's the best term in English for a person who is interested in learning about Christ for the first time. I'm using "seeker" as a placeholder.

God hasn’t contradicted himself. Substitutionary atonement was the OT model that pointed to the NT fulfillment. Mercy and justice is the balance.

Your argument is the same one my Muslim friend tried to make in our conversations. You‘re reading and interpreting the Bible through an Islamic lens. I’m not persuaded by that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sun comes at a cost. The price must be payed. That’s redemption

I understand why people talk about the atonement in economic terms, such as "payment," "cost," "price," etc., but it seems to obfuscate an important aspect of salvation: the relationship between the Father the Son and Jesus' followers.

Jesus, in his wisdom, shares a parable about a king who forgave his servant a substantial debt. This parable serves as a powerful illustration of the king's decision to cease collection and 'write off' the debt. It's not just about the cessation of payment, but the complete reset of the debtor's account balance to zero.

Though I agree with you that sin comes at a great cost, it would appear that if the king in Jesus' parable represents God, then he expects no payment for our sin debt. The account of Jesus' followers is set to zero. For this reason, I can't accept the idea that Jesus' death on the cross was intended to "pay" for something. Rather, his death on the cross must have served a different purpose.

If Jesus' death on the cross was intended to "pay" our debt to justice, then a more fitting parable would include a wealthy friend who paid the King the servant's debt.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

BLOOD SUBSTITIONARY ATONEMENT IN THE BOOK OF ACTS: THE EIGHT KEY SPEECHES

When I showed one of our friends in the forum that none of the 4 gospels presented Jesus preaching substitutionary atonement, even in the sermons and parables where he intentionally and explicitly addressed the topic of forgiveness, I was told to hear the apostles, since Jesus speaks also through them.

If Jesus had revealed the doctrine of substitutionary atonement to his disciples, the apostles would have preached it. Do you all agree? In the end, what other doctrine in your view could have been more important for salvation?

This is why I bring here the eight major speeches recorded in the Book of Acts so that we can examine together if they convey such doctrine.

1. The speech of Peter at Pentecost. (Acts 2:14-39)
2. The speech of Peter at Solomon's Porch (Acts 3:11-24)
3. The speech of Peter before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4:8-12)
4. The speech of Stephan that led to his martyrdom (Acts 7:1-53)
5. The speech of Peter at Cornelius' house (Act 10:34-43)
6. The speech of Paul at the Areopagus in Athens (Acts 17:22-31)
7. The first defense of Paul, at Jerusalem (Acts 22:1-21)
8. The second defense of Paul, at Cesarea (Acts 24:10-21)

 

[Johann]

If Jesus had revealed the doctrine of substitutionary atonement to his disciples, the apostles would have preached it. Do you all agree? In the end, what other doctrine in your view could have been more important for salvation?

The doctrine of substitutionary atonement, which posits that Jesus Christ died as a substitute for sinners, bearing the punishment that they deserved, is a cornerstone of traditional Christian theology. It is often linked with the idea of Jesus' sacrificial death as a fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system. Let's explore whether the apostles preached this doctrine and its significance in the context of salvation.

Apostolic Preaching and Substitutionary Atonement
Biblical Evidence:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4:

Text: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."
Commentary: Paul emphasizes that Christ's death for our sins is foundational to the gospel message. This aligns with the idea of substitutionary atonement.
1 Peter 2:24:

Text: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."
Commentary: Peter speaks directly to the substitutionary nature of Jesus' suffering and death.
Romans 3:23-25:

Text: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Commentary: Paul clearly teaches that Jesus' death serves as a propitiation, satisfying God's justice and allowing for the justification of believers.
Importance of Substitutionary Atonement for Salvation
Substitutionary atonement is often considered central to the doctrine of salvation for several reasons:

Fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy:

Isaiah 53:5-6: "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Commentary: This prophetic passage is viewed by Christians as a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrificial death, emphasizing the substitutionary nature of His suffering.
Theological Necessity:

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Commentary: The penalty for sin is death, and substitutionary atonement addresses this by presenting Jesus as the one who bears that penalty on behalf of sinners.
Divine Justice and Mercy:

Romans 5:8-9: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Commentary: This doctrine holds that God's justice and mercy meet at the cross, where Jesus' death satisfies the righteous requirement for justice and extends mercy to believers.
Alternative Doctrines for Salvation
While substitutionary atonement is highly significant, other doctrines also play crucial roles in the broader Christian understanding of salvation:

Justification by Faith:

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Commentary: This doctrine emphasizes that salvation is a gift received through faith, not by human effort.
Resurrection of Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:17: "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Commentary: The resurrection is essential as it validates Jesus' victory over sin and death, ensuring eternal life for believers.
Sanctification:

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."
Commentary: The process of becoming holy, or sanctification, is crucial for living out the implications of salvation.
Conclusion

The apostles did preach the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, as evidenced by several New Testament passages.

This doctrine is central to the Christian understanding of salvation because it addresses the problem of sin, satisfies divine justice, and highlights God's mercy. While other doctrines, such as justification by faith and the resurrection, are also vital, substitutionary atonement remains a foundational element of Christian soteriology.

Don't kick against the goads friend.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If believing in the doctrine of substitutionary atonement was key for salvation, and Jesus had not revealed it before for whatever reason, still the Holy Spirit at Pentecost would have revealed it. Particularly if Peter was going to address the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
However, Peter announces that "lawless hands" killed Jesus, that God raised Jesus from the dead... and says no word whatsoever about atonement.

Once he finished his speech, the people, "stung in the heart", asked “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Wouldn't this be the greatest opportunity to say something similar of what Evangelical preachers say? Something like: "Believe that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has paid for your sins, that his blood has washed your sins, and your sins will be forgiven!".
However, Peter answered: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit..”

If we recall the words of John The Baptist, we find the same recommendation: Repent, be baptized in water, be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
"Repent" is the perpetual call of all Messengers of God.

 

[Johann]

If believing in the doctrine of substitutionary atonement was key for salvation, and Jesus had not revealed it before for whatever reason, still the Holy Spirit at Pentecost would have revealed it. Particularly if Peter was going to address the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
However, Peter announces that "lawless hands" killed Jesus, that God raised Jesus from the dead... and says no word whatsoever about atonement.

Once he finished his speech, the people, "stung in the heart", asked “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Wouldn't this be the greatest opportunity to say something similar of what Evangelical preachers say? Something like: "Believe that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has paid for your sins, that his blood has washed your sins, and your sins will be forgiven!".
However, Peter answered: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit..”

If we recall the words of John The Baptist, we find the same recommendation: Repent, be baptized in water, be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
"Repent" is the perpetual call of all Messengers of God.

Ever read the 13 Pauline epistles?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

1 Corinthians 15:3-4:
1 Peter 2:24:
Romans 3:23-25:
Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 5:8-9: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
1 Corinthians 15:17: "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

Dear friends

All verses quoted here by our brother @Johann were written when the problem of Judazing converts vs Greek converts was ongoing and of critical importance for the early church.

In contrast, the speeches of Peter in Acts 2, 3 and 4, and the speech of Stephen, were all given to a Jew audience. If the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is universal and necessary for salvation, why it wasn't given to the Jew audience?
Same with the speech of Paul in Athens. It was to a pure Gentile audience. Whay it wasn't preached to the Greek audience?

As you can see, my friends, allusions to blood atonement were made to mixed audiences, but not to homogenous audiences, indicating that the hypothesis that all references to blood atonement are directed to keep the unity of the church among these groups in conflict is more likely to be true.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Ever read the 13 Pauline epistles?

Mixed audience with conflicts with Judaizing converts.
Have you read the 13 Pauline epistles under this light?

 

[Matthias]

You’re bucking the early Christian church @Pancho Frijoles.

You’re trying to persuade Christians to do the same.

 

[Johann]

All verses quoted here by our brother @Johann were written when the problem of Judazing converts vs Greek converts was ongoing and of critical importance for the early church.

You are losing ground friend--

Context of Judaizing and Gentile Converts
Judaizing Controversy:

Definition: Judaizing refers to the insistence that Gentile converts to Christianity must adhere to certain Jewish laws and customs, such as circumcision, dietary laws, and observance of Jewish festivals.
Biblical Context: This controversy is particularly evident in the epistles, notably Galatians and Acts, where Paul addresses the tension between Jewish and Gentile believers.
Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15):

Significance: The Council of Jerusalem was convened to address this very issue. The decision was that Gentile converts were not required to follow the full Mosaic Law but should abstain from certain practices like idolatry, sexual immorality, and consuming blood.
Outcome: This ruling was pivotal in shaping the early church's approach to integrating Gentiles into what was initially a Jewish movement.
The Role of "Repentance" in Pauline Epistles
The previous search for the term "repent" in the Pauline epistles yielded a limited number of direct occurrences. Here's a more detailed and corrected exploration:

Romans 2:4:

Text: "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?"
Commentary: Paul emphasizes that God's kindness is meant to lead individuals to repentance, underscoring the importance of a transformative change of heart.
2 Corinthians 7:9-10:

Text: "Yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."
Commentary: Here, Paul distinguishes between godly sorrow, which leads to repentance and salvation, and worldly sorrow, which leads to death. This passage highlights the salvific importance of repentance.
Addressing the Broader Context
Judaizing Issue in Paul's Letters:
While Paul addresses the issue of Judaizers, particularly in Galatians (e.g., Galatians 2:4-5, Galatians 5:1-6), the concept of repentance is a broader theological theme that transcends this specific controversy.

Galatians 2:4-5: "This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you."
Paul's emphasis on faith in Christ rather than adherence to the law (Galatians 3:24-25) underscores his broader theological stance, which includes the call to repentance as part of the transformative process of salvation.
Conclusion
The term "repent" appears explicitly in key Pauline passages (Romans 2:4 and 2 Corinthians 7:9-10), and while the Judaizing controversy is an important historical context for understanding Paul's letters, the doctrine of repentance itself is a fundamental aspect of Paul's theology. It reflects a call to a changed heart and mind, crucial for both Jewish and Gentile converts. The broader theological themes in Paul's writings consistently emphasize transformation, faith, and a new life in Christ, which inherently include the concept of repentance.

Having said this

Yes, Paul did preach the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. This doctrine is evident in several key passages in his epistles. Let's examine some of the primary texts where Paul articulates this concept:

Key Texts on Substitutionary Atonement in Paul's Writings
Romans 3:23-25:

Text: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Commentary: Here, Paul clearly presents Christ as a "sacrifice of atonement" (hilastērion in Greek), emphasizing that Jesus' death satisfies God's justice and allows for the justification of believers through faith.
Romans 5:8-9:

Text: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Commentary: This passage underscores that Christ died for sinners, highlighting the substitutionary nature of His death as a demonstration of God's love and a means of saving believers from divine wrath.
2 Corinthians 5:21:

Text: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Commentary: Paul explains that Jesus, who was sinless, was made to be sin on our behalf. This substitution enables believers to attain the righteousness of God, illustrating the exchange at the heart of substitutionary atonement.
Galatians 3:13:

Text: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.'"
Commentary: By becoming a curse for us, Christ redeems us from the curse of the law, indicating a substitutionary act where He takes on the penalty deserved by humanity.
1 Corinthians 15:3:

Text: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
Commentary: Paul delivers a core element of the gospel message, stating that Christ died for our sins. This aligns with the substitutionary atonement doctrine, where Jesus' death is seen as a sacrificial act for the sins of humanity.
Theological Significance
Paul's teachings on substitutionary atonement are crucial for understanding his theology of salvation:

Justice and Mercy: Substitutionary atonement addresses the need for justice by recognizing the seriousness of sin and God's requirement for a penalty. At the same time, it highlights God's mercy in providing Jesus as the substitute.
Redemption and Reconciliation: This doctrine underscores the themes of redemption and reconciliation, where believers are redeemed from sin and reconciled to God through the sacrificial death of Jesus.
Conclusion
Paul's epistles contain clear and explicit references to the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. He consistently teaches that Jesus' death was a sacrificial, substitutionary act that satisfied God's justice and enabled the justification and reconciliation of believers. This doctrine is foundational to Pauline theology and central to the Christian understanding of salvation.

You may as well concede @Pancho Frijoles

 

[quietthinker]

I agree, my friend. Thanks for the thought.


I think God is wise enough and powerful enough to persuade people into salvation without forcing them.
Coca Cola's executives have been able to persuade millions of people to buy their products, without forcing them.
God is infinitely wiser than Coca Cola executives, and has all eternity at his disposal.

View attachment 47102

I guess everybody in this Forum acknowledges that God is All Powerful, All Wise. So, everybody in this forum believes God can find a way to persuade everyone without forcing them. The point is, Does God want to save everyone? Well, I would say saving people is what God enjoys the most. He is persistent. He does not accept a "No" as a response.

So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance.

I think evil is testimony to phenomena unexplainable and without reason.....if there was there would be an excuse. Even God's persuasiveness and patience did not persuade Lucifer to take a different course. Lucifer pursued till he through his agents killed the Creator. Where the miracle manifests is in his self resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

According to Christian theology, God's requirement for the shedding of Jesus' blood is understood within the context of the New Testament teachings on atonement and redemption. Here are some key points:

Biblical Foundation:

Hebrews 9:22: "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
This verse highlights the principle established in the Old Testament sacrificial system, where blood was necessary for forgiveness of sins.
Jesus' Sacrificial Role:

John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
Jesus is described as the sacrificial Lamb whose death atones for the sins of humanity.
Purpose of Jesus' Sacrifice:

Romans 5:8-9: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is understood as satisfying God's justice and reconciling humanity to God, providing forgiveness and salvation.
Divine Plan and Love:

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
God's sending of Jesus to die on the cross is an expression of His love and a central part of His plan for salvation.

In Christian belief, while God did not "require" the blood of Jesus in a punitive sense, Jesus' sacrificial death is understood as fulfilling God's plan for redemption and forgiveness of sins. It demonstrates God's love and mercy towards humanity, providing a way for reconciliation and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 26:28:

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Mark 14:24:

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."
Luke 22:20:

"This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
John 19:34:

"But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water."
Acts 20:28:

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood."
Romans 3:25:

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Ephesians 1:7:

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
Colossians 1:20:

"And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Hebrews 9:14:

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"
1 Peter 1:18-19:

"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."

These Scriptures highlight the significance of Jesus shedding His blood as central to Christian belief in redemption, forgiveness of sins, and reconciliation with God.

Guess you have it wrong.

Yes.

"And he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read in the ears of the people. And they said, All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words." -- Exodus 24:7-8

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:” (Jeremiah 31:31-32).

"This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for you." -- Luke 22:20

The Covenant God made with Abraham, and the promise He made to king David are both based upon God's oath and nothing else.

The covenant God made with Israel with Moses as the mediator is based on their obedience (faithfulness) and God's faithfulness, and was ratified with the blood of the sacrifice for sin.

The New Covenant is based on Christ's obedience and faithfulness and ratified by His own blood shed for sin, and requires only that we believe.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Definition: Judaizing refers to the insistence that Gentile converts to Christianity must adhere to certain Jewish laws and customs, such as circumcision, dietary laws, and observance of Jewish festivals.

Circumcision, dietary laws, observance of festivals… and… worshiping at the Temple in Jerusalem, through animal sacrifices. That’s the most relevant to this thread.
The Temple cult was at the center of Jewish religion and identity. That’s why any declaration against the Temple was immediately considered as blasphemy.As we can read in the description of Pentecost, Jews from all over the known world made the long, risky amd expensive trip to Jerusalem. And Jews expected the same from Greek converts. To be a Christian — according to the Judaizing — implied honoring the animal sacrifice rituals at the Temple.

The apostles themselves continued to attend the Temple services even after crucifixion. Paul had no problems in attending a purification rite. If they had considered the substitutionary atonement of Christ critical for salvation, would they have done this? Would we attend today a ceremony of animal sacrifices?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In the second speech, Peter and John attend the Temple and heal a lame man.
Peter speaks again about the recent crucifixion of Jesus. He repeats, for a second time, that he had been killed
He does not mention a single word about substitutionary atonement despite he is calling (again) for repentance.

Very importantly, explains the suffering of Christ as necessary to fulfill messianic prophecies, not to forgive sins.
But what God foretold through all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled.
The mission of Jesus, Peter says, was to lead eveyone to abandon an evil lifestyle. No atonement.
God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your iniquities.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes.

"And he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read in the ears of the people. And they said, All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words." -- Exodus 24:7-8

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:” (Jeremiah 31:31-32).

"This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for you." -- Luke 22:20

The Covenant God made with Abraham, and the promise He made to king David are both based upon God's oath and nothing else.

The covenant God made with Israel with Moses as the mediator is based on their obedience (faithfulness) and God's faithfulness, and was ratified with the blood of the sacrifice for sin.

The New Covenant is based on Christ's obedience and faithfulness and ratified by His own blood shed for sin, and requires only that we believe.

It is well known that, for centuries, blood was used to give value to a covenant or agreement.
But again, blood was a symbol. God didn’t need blood to forgive a sin, just as He didn’t need the water in which the sinner was submerged, nor a cut foreskin to seal a pact.
Holding the testicles was also a practice to give validity to a witness (the word “testimony” comes from testicles”).

I invite you all to ask tomorrow people on the streets, schools, stadiums or shopping centers, if they would demand a contract to be signed by blood. You will easily realize that the use blood to seal covenants was a cultural trait.

 

[Zao is life]

It is well known that, for centuries, blood was used to give value to a covenant or agreement.
But again, blood was a symbol. God didn’t need blood to forgive a sin, just as He didn’t need the water in which the sinner was submerged, nor a cut foreskin to seal a pact.
Holding the testicles was also a practice to give validity to a witness (the word “testimony” comes from testicles”).

I invite you all to ask tomorrow people on the streets, schools, stadiums or shopping centers, if they would demand a contract to be signed by blood. You will easily realize that the use blood to seal covenants was a cultural trait.

You false teachers grow in number by the day.

"For the life [nephesh: soul] of the flesh is in the blood. And I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." -- Leviticus 17:11-12.

The sins were laid upon the sacrifice whose blood (life) was poured out unto death in the place of the sinner. It was a shadow of Christ.