Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Johann]

You false teachers grow in number by the day.

"For the life [nephesh: soul] of the flesh is in the blood. And I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." -- Leviticus 17:11-12.

The sins were laid upon the sacrifice whose blood (life) was poured out unto death in the place of the sinner. It was a shadow of Christ.

Well said @Zao is life and praise God for sane , born again brothers and sisters who expose false doctrines.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The doctrine of substitutionary atonement, which posits that Jesus Christ died as a substitute for sinners, bearing the punishment that they deserved, is a cornerstone of traditional Christian theology. It is often linked with the idea of Jesus' sacrificial death as a fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system. Let's explore whether the apostles preached this doctrine and its significance in the context of salvation.

Apostolic Preaching and Substitutionary Atonement
Biblical Evidence:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4:

Text: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."
Commentary: Paul emphasizes that Christ's death for our sins is foundational to the gospel message. This aligns with the idea of substitutionary atonement.
1 Peter 2:24:

Text: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."
Commentary: Peter speaks directly to the substitutionary nature of Jesus' suffering and death.
Romans 3:23-25:

Text: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Commentary: Paul clearly teaches that Jesus' death serves as a propitiation, satisfying God's justice and allowing for the justification of believers.
Importance of Substitutionary Atonement for Salvation
Substitutionary atonement is often considered central to the doctrine of salvation for several reasons:

Fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy:

Isaiah 53:5-6: "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Commentary: This prophetic passage is viewed by Christians as a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrificial death, emphasizing the substitutionary nature of His suffering.
Theological Necessity:

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Commentary: The penalty for sin is death, and substitutionary atonement addresses this by presenting Jesus as the one who bears that penalty on behalf of sinners.
Divine Justice and Mercy:

Romans 5:8-9: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Commentary: This doctrine holds that God's justice and mercy meet at the cross, where Jesus' death satisfies the righteous requirement for justice and extends mercy to believers.
Alternative Doctrines for Salvation
While substitutionary atonement is highly significant, other doctrines also play crucial roles in the broader Christian understanding of salvation:

Justification by Faith:

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Commentary: This doctrine emphasizes that salvation is a gift received through faith, not by human effort.
Resurrection of Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:17: "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Commentary: The resurrection is essential as it validates Jesus' victory over sin and death, ensuring eternal life for believers.
Sanctification:

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."
Commentary: The process of becoming holy, or sanctification, is crucial for living out the implications of salvation.
Conclusion

The apostles did preach the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, as evidenced by several New Testament passages.

This doctrine is central to the Christian understanding of salvation because it addresses the problem of sin, satisfies divine justice, and highlights God's mercy. While other doctrines, such as justification by faith and the resurrection, are also vital, substitutionary atonement remains a foundational element of Christian soteriology.

Don't kick against the goads friend.

If substitutionary atonement were true, and Jesus died so that we wouldn't die, then believers wouldn't die. But we all die, so it can't be true. The doctrine may be central to Christian understanding, but it's wrong.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Paul's epistles contain clear and explicit references to the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. He consistently teaches that Jesus' death was a sacrificial, substitutionary act that satisfied God's justice and enabled the justification and reconciliation of believers. This doctrine is foundational to Pauline theology and central to the Christian understanding of salvation.

You may as well concede @Pancho Frijoles

Certainly, Paul's epistles contain clear and explicit references to substitutionary atonement. I do concede and have always conceded.
What I do not concede is that Jesus and his apostles, including Paul, taught that God requested the sinner to believe in the doctrine of a substitutionary atonement to be forgiven.

I have claimed that Paul used blood atonement as a didactic tool to fight the Judaizing demands over the Greeks and the resulting division within the church. One clear passage to support this is Colossians 2:8-17. I'm quoting it below. Please notice:

• Paul links the forgiveness of sins not only to the cross, but to the circumcision, baptism and resurrection of Christ. All these figures receive the same emphasis.
• Paul concludes, after finishing all the allegories, that Greeks should not accept being judged over the observance of the Law of Moses. ("Therefore, let no one judge you..."). So, this was the purpose of all the allegories.

Beware lest anyone captivate you through philosophy and vain deceit, in the tradition of men and the elementary principles of the world, and not after Christ.​

​

For in Him lives all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him, who is the head of all authority and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which also you were raised with Him through the faith of the power of God, who has raised Him from the dead.​

​

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has resurrected together with Him, having forgiven you all sins. He blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us and contrary to us, and He took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed authorities and powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them by the cross.​

​

Therefore let no one judge you regarding food, or drink, or in respect of a holy day or new moon or sabbath days. These are shadows of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. ​

 

[Matthias]

If substitutionary atonement were true, and Jesus died so that we wouldn't die, then believers wouldn't die. But we all die, so it can't be true. The doctrine may be central to Christian understanding, but it's wrong.

It is appointed once for every human person to die (Hebrews 9:27). Substitutionary atonement doesn’t alter that fact. Jesus died so that those who belong to him will not die a second time, in the lake of fire.

 

[Behold]

It is appointed once for every human person to die (Hebrews 9:27). Substitutionary atonement doesn’t alter that fact.

Its only your body that dies .. (Hebrews 9:27)

Your Spirit does not.

So, this is the real you, not your body........so, the "born again"... or the "CHRISTIAN" is not your body.. its your Born again Spirit, that is the "New Creation in Christ".

Jesus said.......>"""" YOU must be born again">........and that YOU< is not your body, as they are going to put your body in a hole in the ground, or cremate it, but your SPIRIT that is the real you that lives inside that "earth suit", is going to end up somewhere, after you die., and that eternal situation is decided based upon what a person chooses to do with Messiah., while they are alive and breathing.

Jesus said....>>"ALL who believe in me .. .i give unto you Eternal LIFE".....

And that Eternal life is with God and Christ and the born again.

 

[Matthias]

Its only your body that dies .. (Hebrews 9:27)

Your Spirit does not.

So, this is the real you, not your body........so, the "born again"... or the "CHRISTIAN" is not your body.. its your Born again Spirit, that is the "New Creation in Christ".

Jesus said.......>"""" YOU must be born again">........and that YOU< is not your body, as they are going to put your body in a hole in the ground, or cremate it, but your SPIRIT that is the real you that lives inside that "earth suit", is going to end up somewhere, after you die., and that eternal situation is decided based on what a person chooses to do with Messiah., while they are alive and breathing.

Human persons die. You’ve changed that to only human bodies die; human persons don’t die.

There is no human person without a body. See the creation of Adam.

The “real” person is the whole person.

 

[Behold]

The “real” person is the whole person.

When Adam chose to disobey God, (ate the "APPLE") = the Torah says that Adam was separated from God...
Yet God gave Adam an animal skin, and talked with Adam, later.

So, what was "separated"?

Notice this.. from the Torah.

God breathed into Adam..... and Adam became a '" living Spirit/Soul".


Q.) God breathed into what?

A.) A BODY that was not alive yet........until God put the Spirit into Adam, which caused the LIFE to arrive into the CONTAINER.

And that same LIFE< is in your container, that same Spirit, is the life that is in your dying body.

They are not going to bury your spirit, they are going to bury your BODY, that dies.

And your Spirit, that needs to be RE-joined to God, .. is what is referred to by Jesus as being "BORN AGAIN"

Your body is not that... its your INNER MAN... your SPIRIT MAN, that needs to be rejoined to God..


Jesus said... "YOU must be born again".. . or you die spiritually separated from God, and remain so.


Jesus came here, and died on The Cross so that your "apples".. your SIN, can be forgiven, so that it no longer separates your spirit man from God, who is "A Spirit"..

That is what Jesus means when He tells us.....>"YOU must born again".

 

[Matthias]

When Adam chose to disobey God, (ate the "APPLE") = the Torah says that Adam was separated from God...
Yet God gave Adam an animal skin, and talked with Adam, later.

So, what was "separated"?

Notice this.. from the Torah.

God breathed into Adam..... and Adam became a '" living Spirit/Soul".


Q.) God breathed into what?

A.) A BODY that was not alive yet........until God put the Spirit into Adam, which caused the LIFE to arrive into the CONTAINER.

And that same LIFE< is in your container, that same Spirit, is the life that is in your dying body.

They are not going to bury your spirit, they are going to bury your BODY, that dies.

And your Spirit, that needs to be RE-joined to God, .. is what is referred to by Jesus as being "BORN AGAIN"

Your body is not that... its your INNER MAN... your SPIRIT MAN, that needs to be rejoined to God..


Jesus said... "YOU must be born again".. . or you die spiritually separated from God, and remain so.


Jesus came here, and died on The Cross so that your "apples".. your SIN, can be forgiven, so that it no longer separates your spirit man from God, who is "A Spirit"..

That is what Jesus means when He tells us.....>"YOU must born again".

God alone is inherently immortal. The human person is created mortal, not immortal.

Immortality is a gift from God. Not every human person will receive the gift.

The bodily resurrected who belong to Messiah will be clothed with immortality. The bodily resurrected who do not belong to Messiah, who do not have their names recorded in the book of life, will be clothed with mortality; and persons clothed with mortality end in the destruction of the lake of fire.

 

[Behold]

God alone is inherently immortal. The human person is created mortal, not immortal.

The "body is dead because of sin" and they are going to bury yours or cremate it.
Have you decided which?
Its good for us to let our wives and family members know how to deal with our dead body, as everyone is heading that way..

But our Spirit that is in the body. = "God Breathed into Adam (His body) and Adam became a LIVING <<<<<<<<.... See that @Matthias ?

That spiritual part of each human never dies... it just leave the earth suit when the earth suit dies..

So, Jesus came to die, for our sins, so that our sin can be forgiven... and no longer separate our spirit man, from God "who is A Spirit".

This is ...

Jesus said.. "YOU>. must be born again".........>Not your body.

How?

Jesus said.. "all that BELIEVE in Me, i give unto you Eternal Life"..

And that Eternal life, is for God to cause your spirit man to become joined to Him again... exactly as ADAM had this spiritual union with God, before Adam SINNED and lost it.

 

[Matthias]

The "body is dead because of sin" and they are going to bury yours or cremate it.
Have you decided which?
Its good for us to let our wives and family member know how to deal with our dead body, as everyone is heading that way..

But our Spirit that is in the body.

"God Breathed into Adam (His body) and Adam became a LIVING <<<<<<<<.... See that @Matthias ?

That part never dies... it just leave the earth suit when the earth suit dies..

So, Jesus came to die, for our sins, so that our sin can be forgiven an no longer separate our spirit man, from God "who is A Spirit".

This is ...

Jesus said.. "YOU>. must be born again".........>Not your body.

How?

Jesus said.. "all that BELIEVE in Me, i give unto you Eternal Life"..

And that Eternal life, is for God to cause your spirit man to become joined to Him again... exactly as ADAM had this spiritual union with God, before Adam SINNED and lost it.

Bodily resurrection is the biblical way, the only way, for a dead human person to become a living human person again.

 

[PS95]

The "body is dead because of sin" and they are going to bury yours or cremate it.
Have you decided which?
Its good for us to let our wives and family members know how to deal with our dead body, as everyone is heading that way..

But our Spirit that is in the body. = "God Breathed into Adam (His body) and Adam became a LIVING <<<<<<<<.... See that @Matthias ?

That spiritual part of each human never dies... it just leave the earth suit when the earth suit dies..

So, Jesus came to die, for our sins, so that our sin can be forgiven... and no longer separate our spirit man, from God "who is A Spirit".

This is ...

Jesus said.. "YOU>. must be born again".........>Not your body.

How?

Jesus said.. "all that BELIEVE in Me, i give unto you Eternal Life"..

And that Eternal life, is for God to cause your spirit man to become joined to Him again... exactly as ADAM had this spiritual union with God, before Adam SINNED and lost it.

Did Adam also have a body?

 

[Behold]

Bodily resurrection is the biblical way, the only way, for a dead human person to become a living human person again.

You wont be resurrected in your body, when they are putting it in a hole in the ground, or when they are cremating it.

And at that time, your Spirit that is....>>"God breathed into ADAM". and "Adam became ALIVE"... that is the Body of Adam, was given the SPIRIT, and the body became living... because of the Spirit that God put in Adam.

This same spirit is the real you, that lives inside your dying body.
Your dying body, will be in the grave or in the cremation furnace, and your spirit will be in eternity, not in the grave, and not in your dead body.

"eternity" has 2 options.

And one of them isn't Heaven.


Jesus came so that we can have Heaven as our Home in Eternity, and for that to happen, to our Spirit, our SIN that is separating us from God, has to be forgiven.

JESUS died on the Cross to forgive our sin, and once forgiven, God will rejoin Himself to us...

This is to become "born again"..

This is Jesus explaining... "YOU, must be born again".

 

[Matthias]

You wont be resurrected in your body, when they are putting it in a hole in the ground, or when they are cremating it.

And at that time, your Spirit that is....>>"God breathed into ADAM". and "Adam became ALIVE"... that is the Body of Adam, was given the SPIRIT, and the body became living... because of the Spirit that God put in Adam.

This same spirit is the real you, that lives inside your dying body.
Your dying body, will be in the grave or in the cremation furnace, and your spirit will be in eternity, not in the grave, and not in your dead body.

"eternity" has 2 options.

And one of them isn't Heaven.


Jesus came so that we can have Heaven as our Home in Eternity, and for that to happen, to our Spirit, before it it later rejoined to the "new body".. our SIN that is separating us from God, has to be forgiven.

JESUS died on the Cross to forgive our sin, and once forgiven, God will rejoin Himself to us...

This is to become "born again"..

This is Jesus explaining... "YOU, must be born again".

The human person dies. The human person lives again.

 

[Behold]

Did Adam also have a body?

Of course., but what make it "LIVING", is this..
-

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
ASV
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
AMP
then the Lord God formed [that is, created the body of] man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being [an individual complete in body and spirit].
AMPC
Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.
BRG
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
CSB
Then the Lord God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
CEB
the Lord God formed the human from the topsoil of the fertile land and blew life’s breath into his nostrils. The human came to life.
CJB
Then Adonai, God, formed a person from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being.
CEV
The Lord God took some soil from the ground and made a man. God breathed life into the man, and the man started breathing.
DARBY
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.
DRA
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
ERV
Then the Lord God took dust from the ground and made a man. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nose, and the man became a living thing.
EASY
Then the Lord God took some soil from the ground and he made a man. He breathed air into the nose of the man to give him life. So the man became alive.
EHV
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
ESV
then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

 

[Behold]

The human person dies. The human person lives again.

The part of you that is listening to me, is not your body... its your MIND.

Your Mind, your WILL, and your EMOTIONS< are not your body.

Your Spirit, is not your Body., and its your /Spirit that is the LIFE in all those, that is in the body, that is the container., and nothing more.

 

[Matthias]

Of course., but what make it "LIVING", is this..
-

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
ASV
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
AMP
then the Lord God formed [that is, created the body of] man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being [an individual complete in body and spirit].
AMPC
Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.
BRG
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
CSB
Then the Lord God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
CEB
the Lord God formed the human from the topsoil of the fertile land and blew life’s breath into his nostrils. The human came to life.
CJB
Then Adonai, God, formed a person from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being.
CEV
The Lord God took some soil from the ground and made a man. God breathed life into the man, and the man started breathing.
DARBY
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.
DRA
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
ERV
Then the Lord God took dust from the ground and made a man. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nose, and the man became a living thing.
EASY
Then the Lord God took some soil from the ground and he made a man. He breathed air into the nose of the man to give him life. So the man became alive.
EHV
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
ESV
then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Breath of life, a living human person.

No breath of life, a dead human person.

 

[Matthias]

The part of you that is listening to me, is not your body... its your MIND.

Your Mind, your WILL, and your EMOTIONS< are not your body.

Your Spirit, is not your Body., and its your /Spirit that is the LIFE in all those, that is in the body, that is the container., and nothing more.

Without a body there is no mind.

 

[PS95]

You wont be resurrected in your body, when they are putting it in a hole in the ground, or when they are cremating it.

And at that time, your Spirit that is....>>"God breathed into ADAM". and "Adam became ALIVE"... that is the Body of Adam, was given the SPIRIT, and the body became living... because of the Spirit that God put in Adam.

This same spirit is the real you, that lives inside your dying body.
Your dying body, will be in the grave or in the cremation furnace, and your spirit will be in eternity, not in the grave, and not in your dead body.

"eternity" has 2 options.

And one of them isn't Heaven.


Jesus came so that we can have Heaven as our Home in Eternity, and for that to happen, to our Spirit, our SIN that is separating us from God, has to be forgiven.

JESUS died on the Cross to forgive our sin, and once forgiven, God will rejoin Himself to us...

This is to become "born again"..

This is Jesus explaining... "YOU, must be born again".

Who is speaking about not being born of the Spirit? That is now, in this present time while we live. Stay on topic.
You deny that our bodies will be resurrected at Jesus' return to spiritual bodies, too?
Recall Jesus ate, had flesh, went thru doors and disappeared, remember?

 

[Behold]

Breath of life, a living human person.

No breath of life, a dead human person.

"breath of life" is put into Adam's body.

See that?

And until God put the spirit into Adam's body, he was nothing more then "dust of the ground" in a human form.

This same spirit that God put into Adam, is your spirit that is inside your body., and it (your spirit) will never die.
its going to heaven or not, after your body dies, and you have the choice to Do what God said to do with Jesus or you can decide to NOT do it.

If you Take Jesus, as your Savior, then God takes you as His Son.

If not, then you have refused the only WAY that God has made available to become "born again".. into eternal spiritual union with Him.

Jesus said.......>>"YOU, must be BORN AGAIN"?. and that is not your body......that is your spirit that is separated from God who is "A Spirit".

 

[Behold]

Who is speaking about not being born of the Spirit?

You asked me if Adam had a body.

I explained.