Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Matthias]

A question for Christian readers: would you tell a Muslim that the Muslim doesn’t understand what the Quran teaches? Some Christians do. The Muslim isn’t persuaded.and the Christian has placed himself in a precarious situation. Such an action might very well cost him his life.

A Muslim tells a Christian that the Christian doesn’t understand the Bible. I’ve not seen this happen (in my conversations with Muslims they have said that it has been corrupted, and Paul is a deceiver) but perhaps it has. Would the Christian be persuaded by the Muslim that he doesn’t understand the Bible? Not likely.

A Baha’i tells a Christian that the Christian doesn’t understand the Bible. The Baha’i understands it and will explain it to the Christian. Would the Christian be persuaded by the Baha’i explanation of what the Bible really teaches? We’re going to find out.

 

[Behold]

I'm trying to say that Paul didn't believe that God needed blood to forgive our sins.

Yet God sent Jesus to the Cross to shed His blood and die., and Jesus said that His Body and Blood that was to be given is the idea of "taking Communion".

Jesus said......" Matthew 26:28 This is my BLOOD which is the new covenant that God makes with his people. This, my BLOOD is poured out for many to FORGIVE their sins."..

Paul says in Romans 3:25, that Justification is based on ..

""""( Jesus)Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past""

Paul also teaches that the born again Christian is ...

1 Corinthians 6:20 :""""""You were bought with a price [you were actually purchased with the precious BLOOD of Jesus"""

That would have been contrary to Jesus clear teachings on how God forgive sins.

What you are teaching is contrary to the Cross of Christ.
Its literally denying it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is no payment needed in God's mercy.
Besides, the Bible explicitly teaches:
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise

Please read the whole Psalm 51. Good night and till tomorrow!

You still have not answered the question. What was the purpose of the cross.. When John the baptist called Jesus the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world

You keep saying there is nothign that says it, Yet people have shown you the opposite.

If your not willing to answer my question, i will move on.. Because your prove you are not here to discuss somethign but to push you view on me,

 

[Matthias]

“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” (Heb 10:16)

Whoever does not live the law of Christ written in his heart and mind, does not live under the new covenant.

The new covenant is ratified by the blood of Messiah.

Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world; in the foreknowledge of the one God (not Allah). He was literally slain on the cross c. AD 30. He is the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. He didn’t suffer for anything he did. He suffered for everything that mankind has done. He stands in our place before God.

”On the cross God looked at Christ and saw you [Christian], now he looks at you [Christian] and sees Christ.” - John MacArthur

Without the substitutionary atonement of Jesus, there is no salvation.

You aren’t presently under the new covenant. I plead with you, just as I do with all non-Christians, to come under the shed blood of the Messiah; to come under the new covenant and inherit the promised life of the age to come, immortality - the life which you believe that you have but do not.

 

[Matthias]

Centuries before the Quran, the Christians Ebionites, who held some of your beliefs, knew God didn't demand blood to forgive his sins.

The Ebionites were wrong on many things, this being one of them.

Don’t look to the Ebionites. Look to Jesus Messiah and the Apostles. You know that Paul, an Apostle, teaches substitutionary atonement. You don’t understand why he does.

 

[RedFan]

This is how, RedFan:

Christ came with a Message. A message of repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation with God.
He knew He was going to be arrested, tortured and executed on the cross. But he didn't mind. He still did it, out of love for us and love for his Father.
"Jesus died for our sins" means that He accepted to die in order to teach us how our sins may be forgiven.

If his crucifixion was intended to teach me how my sins may be forgiven, I missed the lesson. I still am missing it. What's the take-away that I'm just missing?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why does the Father accept the prodigal son without asking for any repair, any payment?

Because he is still his son and he loves him....he loved him enough to allow him, at his own expense, to experience life outside of his father’s house in order to see and experience for himself the folly of his actions. The son’s decision cost the father a great deal.....

But not once did the father enquire about his son’s lifestyle, or send his servants to plead with him to come home.....experience is the best teachers and this parable is about God’s forgiveness even when it came at great cost to himself.....this son’s inheritance would not have been as much as his older and more faithful son, (firstborn gets the greater share) but he would have been keenly aware of the waste of the father’s resources to which his own labor contributed, when it could have been put to beneficial use. Yet the ‘benefit’ was the saving of his brother’s life. The father’s attitude was not shared by the older son...who only saw what appeared to be injustice. The father was grateful just to have his son return with a contrite heart and a humble spirit....he did not require repayment for what it had already cost him. God does not operate on the same level as humans, but justice is always tempered by mercy......something God gives only when it is deserved. For us, God’s mercy extended to offering “a life for a life”.....the life of his son, paid the value of the redemption price of the human race.

Actually, why does Jesus presents the Father throwing a party, which implies further expense from the Father, rather than some recovery of what is due?

Because, for the father, it was never about the money....the party was a celebration of the son’s return but also his repentance. If he had returned without that contrition, I doubt the father would have run out to meet him....showing that he recognised the humility demonstrated just in the way he approached the home and family he had abandoned.

Why doesn't Jesus present someone (the older son, for example) as offering his life to pay the price? Indeed, why does Jesus present the older son as disappointed with his Father attitude towards his brother?

Because the focus of the older brother was on the wrong thing.....no material wealth can equal a life.....
The father celebrated his son’s return to the family, but the older brother harboured animosity because the younger son was met with no reprimand or demand for restitution.

This reminds me of another parable that Jesus used to demonstrate why some might be a bit ticked off in a certain situation......
He spoke of workers in a field who had agreed to a set price for the day’s work. Workers kept coming throughout the day and were were offered the same wage. When it came time for the man to pay his workers, the ones who had worked the full day got angry that those who worked less time got the same pay.

Matt 20:13-15...
“But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. 15 Do I not have the right to do what I want with my own things? Or is your eye envious because I am good?’”

I have no doubt that the representatives in the parable of the prodigal son, mean more than a cursory reading might indicate.

 

[Matthias]

The Ebionites were wrong on many things, this being one of them.

Don’t look to the Ebionites. Look to Jesus Messiah and the Apostles. You know that Paul, an Apostle, teaches substitutionary atonement. You don’t understand why he does.

So you’re good with the Ebionites. (And the Muslims.) They underpin your case @Pancho Frijoles.

Is Jesus?

Jesus sent Paul. The Ebionites and (the Muslims) rejected Paul.

Siding with the Ebionites (and Islam) against Paul is siding against the one who sent him, and the one who sent him.

Ebionites (and Islam). Anti-Paul.

Me. Pro-Paul. Anti-Ebionites (and Islam).

You. Pro-Paul. Pro-Ebionites (and Islam).

You. Pro-Paul. You. [Anti-Paul]. Red flag.

Is Paul the author of Hebrews? I believe he is, but it could be someone else. In any event, the book of Hebrews presents the case the anti-Paul groups reject.

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles do you see a connection between the bodily resurrection of Jesus (which you reject) and substitutionary atonement (which you reject)? If so, will you be including that in your argument against substitutionary atonement? If not, are you planning to start a separate thread against the bodily resurrection of Jesus in the Christian Apologetics Forum?

In other words, will you be appealing to the Gnostic Christians in your argument?

 

[PS95]

This is how, RedFan:

Christ came with a Message. A message of repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation with God.
He knew He was going to be arrested, tortured and executed on the cross. But he didn't mind. He still did it, out of love for us and love for his Father.
"Jesus died for our sins" means that He accepted to die in order to teach us how our sins may be forgiven.

Many of us have always placed all emphasis in Jesus death.
But Jesus death was just the corollary of Jesus life.
Jesus came to the earth to LIVE, to live in obedience to his Father until his death on the cross. He came to teach us how to LIVE: that is his gift of eternal LIFE.

My brother: The only reason why we must die with Christ (be crucified with Him) is that we can LIVE a different kind of LIFE. The eternal life.

Sorry but that isn't right. Jesus did die for our sins. That is the basis of Christianity. Once we actually believe Him, then only do we see Romans 6:1-10 begin to be a reality in our own lives. (you referenced Ro 6)
See verse below on Jesus' sacrifice---

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross Col 2:13-14

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Cor 15:3

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1Peter 2:24

Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Romans 4:25

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6

And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Eph 5:2

Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Tim 2:6

Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. Matt 20:28

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive 1 Cor 15:22

He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, Col 1:22

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Ro 5:6

You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5


Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Gal 1:4

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: ;that one has died for all, therefore all have died 2 Cor 5:14

But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, Heb 10:12

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” Gal 3:13

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:14-16

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Col 1:19-23

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:4-7

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:8-10

 

[PS95]

The second parable told by Jesus explicitly to address God's forgiveness is the Prodigal Son.
As we know very well the story, this time I will introduce a change in how the parable ends... I would like you to see how the parable would have looked like if Jesus had wanted to teach that God needs a substitutionary payment in order to forgive.



When he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have an abundance of bread, and here I am perishing with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’ So he arose and came to his father.

Notice, the son came with nothing in his hands, only that he was sorry and was broken in his sins and he humbled himself.
Do you see that?

“But while he was yet far away, his father saw him and closed the door of the house, because he was angry as his young son had squandered the estate that He had given.
The older son was in the field, and when he saw his Father angry, He approched Him and said: "Father ,why don't you receive my brother" and the Father said "There is a debt that your brother must pay. That is what justice requires. The estate he squandered was my creation."
Upon hearing this, the older son said to his father: "Please open the door to my young brother. I will work every single day to earn back the value of the estate he squandered. Treat me as if I was your servant."

The questions here are

Why does the Father accept the prodigal son without asking for any repair, any payment? Actually, why does Jesus presents the Father throwing a party, which implies further expense from the Father, rather than some recovery of what is due?
Why doesn't Jesus present someone (the older son, for example) as offering his life to pay the price? Indeed, why does Jesus present the older son as disappointed with his Father attitude towards his brother?

God is love.-- There is nothing that we can offer Him to pay what we owe. He is in need of nothing. He is our provider. Every good gift comes down from Him. We are not worthy to pay for our own sins- We need a Savior. God provides. When the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, we respond with repentance in a broken humility seeking forgiveness. Jesus is that Savior. On;ly HE is WORTHY!
The party is for rejoicing that his son has returned because He loves him.

How could the older brother pay for anyone's sins? Is he not also a sinner? He is jealous and believes that he needs to work to earn His father's grace. He believes that he is just righteous enough to earn grace. No one is righteous. We all have sinned. Jesus was spotless, blamless without sin. No one else can say that without lying. God imputes TO US the righteousness of Christ when we believe Him!
We died with HIm- buried with Him and will live with Him.
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Col 3:3

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Matt 5:6<--- We hunger--He provides.
But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.- Matt 6:33 not ours.---- HIS.

1 Cor 5:21- He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Cor 1:29-30 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the LORD.”

Ro. 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Romans 3:21-26
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Titus 3:5-7
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A Baha’i tells a Christian that the Christian doesn’t understand the Bible. The Baha’i understands it and will explain it to the Christian. Would the Christian be persuaded by the Baha’i explanation of what the Bible really teaches? We’re going to find out.

A six-year-old boy tells the Christian adult that the adult doesn’t understand the Bible.
The child understands it and will explain it to the adult.

The image below reminds me of my childhood. My understanding of God’s forgiveness was far better than that of the priests. These are simple and powerful truths revealed to a child… and some of them are forgotten later on, after years of indoctrination in Theology classrooms.

• God is good.
• Sometimes I do bad things and that makes me feel bad.
• When I feel bad, I go to my mom and dad. I tell them what I did wrong. Sometimes I feel so sad that I cry. They always forgive me. They want me to learn and be happier..
• I also pray to God. God is like my mom and dad, but even better. God forgives me. He wants me to learn and be happier.
• I have a crucifix in my bedroom. It shows how bad people killed Jesus.
• Jesus was good. He was brave. He didnt mind being hated by bad guys.
• Jesus taught us to be good, to forgive those who hurts us, and to ask God forgiveness when we hurt them.
• I don’t fear my parents, and I don’t fear God. I feel protected and loved.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Notice, the son came with nothing in his hands, only that he was sorry and was broken in his sins and he humbled himself.
Do you see that?

Yes, I see it. I’m glad you see it too.
When we come to God with nothing in our hands, humbled, with no self-righteousness nor excuses, God forgive us. He does not ask any payment. There is no transaction. Mercy is about letting go… letting go with one condition: be merciful to others.

God is love.-- There is nothing that we can offer Him to pay what we owe. He is in need of nothing. He is our provider. Every good gift comes down from Him. We are not worthy to pay for our own sins-

God is love and doesn’t need any payment. Forgiveness means forgiveness. It is not a transaction.
When the king of the story forgave his servant, the king just did it out of compassion. The King had the right to demand the payment of the debt… but He just let go. That is forgiveness.

The party is for rejoicing that his son has returned because He loves him.

How could the older brother pay for anyone's sins? Is he not also a sinner?

Sins?
No. Debt. Within the parable, the older brother could have offered to pay for his brother’s debt. The squanderd estate.
The sins of the younger son are symbolized by the squandered estate.

. God imputes TO US the righteousness of Christ when we believe Him!

Jesus told a story about the Pharisee and the tax collector.
I invite you to read it again.
The tax collector was imputed righteousness because he came with a humble, contrite heart. Not because he confessed to believe in the preexistence, deity, incarnation, substitutionary atonement, resurrection or Second Coming of Christ.
We are imputed rigtheousness when we do what Christ asks us to do. That’s what “faith in Christ” is all about.

We died with HIm- buried with Him and will live with Him.
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Col 3:3

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Matt 5:6<--- We hunger--He provides.
But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.- Matt 6:33 not ours.---- HIS.

1 Cor 5:21- He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Cor 1:29-30 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the LORD.”

Ro. 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Romans 3:21-26
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Titus 3:5-7
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I agree 100%.

 

[PS95]

Yes, I see it. I’m glad you see it too.
When we come to God with nothing in our hands, humbled, with no self-righteousness nor excuses, God forgive us. He does not ask any payment. There is no transaction. Mercy is about letting go… letting go with one condition: be merciful to others.

God is love and doesn’t need any payment. Forgiveness means forgiveness. It is not a transaction.
When the king of the story forgave his servant, the king just did it out of compassion. The King had the right to demand the payment of the debt… but He just let go. That is forgiveness.

Sins?
No. Debt. Within the parable, the older brother could have offered to pay for his brother’s debt. The squanderd estate.
The sins of the younger son are symbolized by the squandered estate.

Jesus told a story about the Pharisee and the tax collector.
I invite you to read it again.
The tax collector was imputed righteousness because he came with a humble, contrite heart. Not because he confessed to believe in the preexistence, deity, incarnation, substitutionary atonement, resurrection or Second Coming of Christ.
We are imputed rigtheousness when we do what Christ asks us to do. That’s what “faith in Christ” is all about.


I agree 100%.

Well, I agree with you that obedience to Christ's commands are a part of our faith, but that's about it. You chopped parts of my reply out when responding.
As for did Jesus die for our sins? WHY YES HE SURE DID! I can not deny that and would never deny that.

God provided for Abraham and He also provided for us. Jesus is the ONLY way.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross Col 2:13-14

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Cor 15:3

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1Peter 2:24

Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Romans 4:25

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6

And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Eph 5:2

Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Tim 2:6

Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. Matt 20:28

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive 1 Cor 15:22

He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, Col 1:22

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Ro 5:6

You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5


Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Gal 1:4

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: ;that one has died for all, therefore all have died 2 Cor 5:14

But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, Heb 10:12

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” Gal 3:13

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:14-16

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Col 1:19-23

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:4-7

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:8-10

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus' life was not taken from him in the sense that ours is. We have no control over the death element in our lives ie, we cannot say when we are decapitated 'I choose not to die' and continue to live. We are terminated.

Jesus tells us this of the life of his, John 10:18 'No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.'

He laid it down to show us that he (God) loves unendingly even to letting us kill him.......without retaliation or revenge ie, he does not hold it against us. This is further reinforced by the words he spoke in his prayer as he was dying, 'Father forgive them, they know not what they're doing'.

To flummox us further he tells us that he self resurrects. Now that should throw a spanner into human logic!

He gave his reality both in living and dying and resurrecting as a gift to humanity so that we could see the real character of God
(for it is the real character of God which is on trial)
He gave so that the wool pulled over our eyes by the various erroneous assertions that God is selfish and needs paying off with blood before he will forgive is exposed for the error that it is to all intelligences in the Heaven and Earth.

 

[Matthias]

A six-year-old boy tells the Christian adult that the adult doesn’t understand the Bible.
The child understands it and will explain it to the adult.

The child is wrong and in danger. The adult corrects him and tries to get him out of harms way.

The image below reminds me of my childhood. My understanding of God’s forgiveness was far better than that of the priests. These are simple and powerful truths revealed to a child… and some of them are forgotten later on, after years of indoctrination in Theology classrooms.

• God is good.
• Sometimes I do bad things and that makes me feel bad.
• When I feel bad, I go to my mom and dad. I tell them what I did wrong. Sometimes I feel so sad that I cry. They always forgive me. They want me to learn and be happier..
• I also pray to God. God is like my mom and dad, but even better. God forgives me. He wants me to learn and be happier.
• I have a crucifix in my bedroom. It shows how bad people killed Jesus.
• Jesus was good. He was brave. He didnt mind being hated by bad guys.
• Jesus taught us to be good, to forgive those who hurts us, and to ask God forgiveness when we hurt them.
• I don’t fear my parents, and I don’t fear God. I feel protected and loved.

View attachment 47040

In the word of an old hymn, “What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus; What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.”

People bicker and fight over so many petty things. This isn’t a petty thing.

You’re in Egypt. Bloody Egypt. The blood of the lamb isn’t placed on the doorposts and the lintel of your house. The life is in the blood.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You still have not answered the question. What was the purpose of the cross..

The purpose of the cross is to serve you and me as a sign of perfect love and submission to God, so that we can get repent and be forgiven by God.
Jesus accepted martyrdom so that we could live a bountiful life, a true life, HIS kind of life. This has nothing to do with God needing blood to forgive our sins.
It has to do with following what Jesus told us to do. When we follow Jesus words, we honor his sacrifice and have eternal life.

We must "eat" Christ's "flesh" an "drink" Christ's "blood" to have "eternal life".
Does this have a literal meaning? We know it doesn't.
We must rather nurture our lives with his life. His example.

When John the baptist called Jesus the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world

This is a metaphor. It appears in the Gospel of John and not in the synoptics, because the Gospel of John was written in 90-100 AD, to an audience that already was acquainted with the analogies used by Paul.
Jesus is not a lamb, and our sins are erased by God's mercy, not by a payment done by blood. Atonement is a didactic tool.

People who came to John the Baptist confessed their sins, and were baptized. No hint whatsoever of a requisite made by John the Baptist to believe in a substitutionary atonement.
The whole region of Judea and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. (Mark 1:5)
When talking about the imminent appearance of Jesus, John the Baptist pointed out to the transformative power of the Holy Spirit, not to a substitutionary atonement. He said: I indeed have baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” (Mark 1:8)

You keep saying there is nothign that says it, Yet people have shown you the opposite.

I respectfully disagree. So far, nobody has proved that God needs blood (the death of an innocent) to forgive your sins or my sins.
On the contrary: I believe I have shown, and will keep showing, that Scripture is full of evidence that God forgives the humbled man who comes to Him with contrite heart, demanding no blood or sacrifice at all.

 

[Behold]

The purpose of the cross is to serve you and me as a sign

Jesus on the Cross, is not a sign, .. its a Sacrifice.

Its Christ The Lord sacrificing Himself...........Shedding His Blood and dying, so that by this SACRIFICE Of Christ, .. all who Believe in Jesus, may be forgiven all their sin, and given "SALVATION", and "Eternal Life".

Jesus explains this as "I am THE WAY"... ."No person comes to the Father but by ME">.

John 14:6

And that "by ME", that is "The Way"< is Jesus on the Cross, dying for our sins.

 

[Cassandra]

I am just lost here. God spent a whole lot of time telling Moses about the building of a sanctuary.
That there were offerings for thanks as well as sin offering.
As for the offering things coming up in Leviticus, and not to Noah, etc. God never told us anywhere in Genesis the definition of clean and unclean animals, but Noah knew.
You really don't think these guys were told when Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Really? Why from the foundation? Because everyone is covered who will be.


Well, how come Abel's sacrifice was better? Cain gave his offering too. What was wrong with it? Probably something about the remission of sins.


These guys knew, Abraham knew John 8:59


Wonder what that was about?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus on the Cross, is not a sign, .. its a Sacrifice.

Its Christ The Lord sacrificing Himself...........Shedding His Blood and dying, so that by this SACRIFICE Of Christ, .. all who Believe in Jesus, may be forgiven all their sin, and given "SALVATION", and "Eternal Life".

Good morning, Behold
Eternal life comes from following Jesus words. Jesus said it Himself: "The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63)
Peter understood this well, and just few moments later, Peter declared himself: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." (John 6:68)

I invite you to read the Gospels again and find out how on such an important topic, the central topic of the gospels, Jesus NEVER TAUGHT that we must believe in a substitutionary atonement to have our sins forgiven and our lives reconciled with the Father. What Jesus asked us was to repent, to be born again into a live where we love God and love each other.