Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Matthias]

My thesis is that Jesus is NOT teaching, through Paul, that God needs blood from another being to forgive our sins.

It’s an anti-New Testament thesis.

My thesis is that it is much more consistent with the rest of the Bible, with history, and with reason, to think that substitutionary atonement was a figure, a tool, a concept, used by Paul to stop Judaizing converts to demand ex-Gentile converts from following the Law of Moses.

In an apologetic forum, we have the opportunity to present arguments and refute arguments.

You’ve presented yours and the New Testament refutes it.

The Book of Hebrews alone eviscerates your non-Christian apologetic.

 

[PS95]

It’s an anti-New Testament thesis.



You’ve presented yours and the New Testament refutes it.

The Book of Hebrews alone eviscerates your non-Christian apologetic.

Do you mind if I ask what is the name of your faith? I just see, other.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Paul also understood the price of mercy.
Its why jesus went to the cross.

Thanks for bringing this extremely important concept.

Let's review what Jesus taught that in two parables explicitly dedicated to the topic of forgiveness. Let's start with the first one.
Remember: Paul cannot contradict Jesus, particularly in a topic as paramount as salvation. So, let's sit and attend together to Jesus explicit presentation of what mercy implies.

Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”​

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.​

​

“Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle the accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But since he was not able to pay, his master ordered that he be sold with his wife, their children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.​

​

“So the servant fell on his knees, pleading with him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.​

​

“But that same servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe.’​

“So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and entreated him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’​

“But he would not and went and threw him in prison until he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what took place, they were very sorry and went and told their master all that had taken place.​

​

“Then his master, after he had summoned him, said to him, ‘O you wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?’ His master was angry and delivered him to the jailers until he should pay all his debt. “So also My heavenly Father will do to each of you, if from your heart you do not forgive your brother for his trespasses.”​

Let me ask you, my friends, some questions:

When the King forgave the servant, did the King anyway took the servant's family or someone else as payment or ransom?
Did the King argued that "Justice is Justice", and the payment needed be made, one way or the other?
Why does the King, in the end, delivers the servant to the jail? What did the King expected from the servant?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you mind if I ask what is the name of your faith? I just see, other.

Hi, PS95.
I am a Baha'i.

 

[PS95]

Hi, PS95.
I am a Baha'i.

Yes, I know. thank you for replying but, I was asking Matthias.

 

[Matthias]

Do you mind if I ask what is the name of your faith? I just see, other.

I don’t mind at all: Christian. To go into the reasons here concerning why I’m registered as “Other Faith” would take away and distract from the critically important topic of this thread. (I invite you to see my thread titled “Continuing Education” for the explanation, if you’re interested.)

Is there anything that a non-Christian could say that might persuade you to believe that the Bible doesn’t teach the concept of substitutionary atonement and it’s necessity for salvation?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The second parable told by Jesus explicitly to address God's forgiveness is the Prodigal Son.
As we know very well the story, this time I will introduce a change in how the parable ends... I would like you to see how the parable would have looked like if Jesus had wanted to teach that God needs a substitutionary payment in order to forgive.

When he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have an abundance of bread, and here I am perishing with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’ So he arose and came to his father.

“But while he was yet far away, his father saw him and closed the door of the house, because he was angry as his young son had squandered the estate that He had given.
The older son was in the field, and when he saw his Father angry, He approched Him and said: "Father ,why don't you receive my brother" and the Father said "There is a debt that your brother must pay. That is what justice requires. The estate he squandered was my creation."
Upon hearing this, the older son said to his father: "Please open the door to my young brother. I will work every single day to earn back the value of the estate he squandered. Treat me as if I was your servant."

The questions here are

Why does the Father accept the prodigal son without asking for any repair, any payment? Actually, why does Jesus presents the Father throwing a party, which implies further expense from the Father, rather than some recovery of what is due?
Why doesn't Jesus present someone (the older son, for example) as offering his life to pay the price? Indeed, why does Jesus present the older son as disappointed with his Father attitude towards his brother?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks for bringing this extremely important concept.

Let's review what Jesus taught that in two parables explicitly dedicated to the topic of forgiveness. Let's start with the first one.
Remember: Paul cannot contradict Jesus, particularly in a topic as paramount as salvation. So, let's sit and attend together to Jesus explicit presentation of what mercy implies.

Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”​

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.​

​

“Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle the accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But since he was not able to pay, his master ordered that he be sold with his wife, their children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.​

​

“So the servant fell on his knees, pleading with him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.​

​

“But that same servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe.’​

“So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and entreated him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’​

“But he would not and went and threw him in prison until he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what took place, they were very sorry and went and told their master all that had taken place.​

​

“Then his master, after he had summoned him, said to him, ‘O you wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?’ His master was angry and delivered him to the jailers until he should pay all his debt. “So also My heavenly Father will do to each of you, if from your heart you do not forgive your brother for his trespasses.”​

Let me ask you, my friends, some questions:

When the King forgave the servant, did the King anyway took the servant's family or someone else as payment or ransom?
Did the King argued that "Justice is Justice", and the payment needed be made, one way or the other?
Why does the King, in the end, delivers the servant to the jail? What did the King expected from the servant?

your not answering the question

God demands a payment for sin (the wage of sin is death)

So how can God forgive sin

Jesus went to the cross. What reason did he die?

Th blood of atonement, what was this for?

The examples you are using is we are to forgive our bothers. God forgave them so we should also.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The second parable told by Jesus explicitly to address God's forgiveness is the Prodigal Son.
As we know very well the story, this time I will introduce a change in how the parable ends... I would like you to see how the parable would have looked like if Jesus had wanted to teach that God needs a substitutionary payment in order to forgive.

When he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have an abundance of bread, and here I am perishing with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’ So he arose and came to his father.

“But while he was yet far away, his father saw him and closed the door of the house, because he was angry as his young son had squandered the estate that He had given.
The older son was in the field, and when he saw his Father angry, He approched Him and said: "Father ,why don't you receive my brother" and the Father said "There is a debt that your brother must pay. That is what justice requires. The estate he squandered was my creation."
Upon hearing this, the older son said to his father: "Please open the door to my young brother. I will work every single day to earn back the value of the estate he squandered. Treat me as if I was your servant."

The questions here are

Why does the Father accept the prodigal son without asking for any repair, any payment? Actually, why does Jesus presents the Father throwing a party, which implies further expense from the Father, rather than some recovery of what is due?
Why doesn't Jesus present someone (the older son, for example) as offering his life to pay the price? Indeed, why does Jesus present the older son as disappointed with his Father attitude towards his brother?

Again

The prodigal son was a son. What makes us sons of God.

Is everyone saved?

 

[PS95]

I don’t mind at all: Christian. To go into the reasons here concerning why I’m registered as “Other Faith” would take away and distract from the critically important topic of this thread. (I invite you to see my thread titled “Continuing Education” for the explanation, if you’re interested.)

Is there anything that a non-Christian could say that might persuade you to believe that the Bible doesn’t teach the concept of substitutionary atonement and it’s necessity for salvation?

Ok- gotcha. I see. thanks. Maybe I will Pm you later if that's ok.
To answer your Q- No.

 

[RedFan]

If Christ “died for our sins,” 1 Cor. 15:3, but substitutional atonement is not the explanation, what is the explanation? How did Calvary accomplish forgiveness of sins. Or did it?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God does not just forgive people
His justice demands a payment for sin, Its why he sent his son

God forgives us if we come to Him with a contrite heart, without asking any blood or ransom, and what He expects from us is to do the same for others. That's the explicit teaching of Jesus on the most important topics of all. The one related to his mission on earth.
Teaching that Paul can illustrate with analogies relevant to the circumstances faced in his churches, but never contradict.
Here is the biblical support

1. In the first parable I quoted, the only thing the King expected from the servant to be merciful to him is that he was merciful to others.
2. In the prayer "Our Heavenly Father", Jesus teach us that we can expect forgiveness from His Father if we forgive others: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
3. At the end of such prayer, Jesus stresses: For if you forgive men for their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men for their sins, neither will your Father forgive your sins.
4. In teaching how to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God, Jesus proclaimed: "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." (Mat 5:7)

Peter had listened to Jesus and understood this clearly, and that´s why he states:
"Above all things, have unfailing love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." (1 P 4:8) If we love one another, we bear the sign that God has covered our sins.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If Christ “died for our sins,” 1 Cor. 15:3, but substitutional atonememt is not the explanation, what is the explanation? How did Calvary accomplish forgiveness of sins. Or did it?

This is how, RedFan:

Christ came with a Message. A message of repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation with God.
He knew He was going to be arrested, tortured and executed on the cross. But he didn't mind. He still did it, out of love for us and love for his Father.
"Jesus died for our sins" means that He accepted to die in order to teach us how our sins may be forgiven.

Many of us have always placed all emphasis in Jesus death.
But Jesus death was just the corollary of Jesus life.
Jesus came to the earth to LIVE, to live in obedience to his Father until his death on the cross. He came to teach us how to LIVE: that is his gift of eternal LIFE.

My brother: The only reason why we must die with Christ (be crucified with Him) is that we can LIVE a different kind of LIFE. The eternal life.

 

[Matthias]

I don’t want to “poison the well” by saying this but I think it’s important to point out - and @Pancho Frijoles might want to do this to bolster his argument against the necessity of substitutionary atonement for salvation - that the Quran doesn’t teach substitutionary atonement. Baha’i hold the Quran and the Bible in high esteem; sacred books which are a part of Baha’i faith; texts which, to use his words, Baha’i “feed” upon.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you understand that you aren’t under the new covenant @Pancho Frijoles?

“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” (Heb 10:16)

Whoever does not live the law of Christ written in his heart and mind, does not live under the new covenant.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don’t want to “poison the well” by saying this but I think it’s important to point out - and @Pancho Frijoles might want to do this to bolster his argument against the necessity of substitutionary atonement for salvation - that the Quran doesn’t teach substitutionary atonement. Baha’i hold the Quran and the Bible in high esteem; sacred books which are a part of Baha’i faith; texts which, to use his words, Baha’i “feed” upon.

Centuries before the Quran, the Christians Ebionites, who held some of your beliefs, knew God didn't demand blood to forgive his sins.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God forgives us if we come to Him with a contrite heart, without asking any blood or ransom, and what He expects from us is to do the same for others. That's the explicit teaching of Jesus on the most important topics of all. The one related to his mission on earth.
Teaching that Paul can illustrate with analogies relevant to the circumstances faced in his churches, but never contradict.
Here is the biblical support

1. In the first parable I quoted, the only thing the King expected from the servant to be merciful to him is that he was merciful to others.
2. In the prayer "Our Heavenly Father", Jesus teach us that we can expect forgiveness from His Father if we forgive others: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
3. At the end of such prayer, Jesus stresses: For if you forgive men for their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men for their sins, neither will your Father forgive your sins.
4. In teaching how to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God, Jesus proclaimed: "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." (Mat 5:7)

Peter had listened to Jesus and understood this clearly, and that´s why he states:
"Above all things, have unfailing love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." (1 P 4:8) If we love one another, we bear the sign that God has covered our sins.

Sorry But a contrite hart will not pay for your sins

again, Why did jesus go to the cross? Can you please answer

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I will now go to rest, my brothers and sisters. Thanks for your attention, questions and candid disagreements.
God bless you all tonight.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Centuries before the Quran, the Christians Ebionites, who held some of your beliefs, knew God didn't demand blood to forgive his sins.

yet according to the law. He did require it

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry But a contrite hart will not pay for your sins

There is no payment needed in God's mercy.
Besides, the Bible explicitly teaches:
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise

Please read the whole Psalm 51. Good night and till tomorrow!