Anti- Christian Crusade.

[Barrd]

Wow, I'm feeling the love you sign off with when I read I feel better because I don't do sex in all the wrong places! And born perfect? Why, you flatter me...

Actually you're just trying to be insulting, but maybe that's how you show love to a fellow Christian...

But on this issue of sin, let's hear your learned opinion because John, an Disciple to Jesus, an Apostle to Christ, called by the Lord as the one He loved, said this:

1Jo 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

So between John and you, I guess somebody's wrong and I'm betting we never see either an apology for your insults nor a retraction of your statement.

Hey, at least he didn't tell you to go wear a sign in San Francisco, and let him know how that works for you...

The "Christian love" in this thread is incredibly overwhelming, isn't it?

Ahhh, well....Jesus was alsos "different", and they crucified Him....and martyred most of His Apostles. So I guess you and I are in good company.

 

[River Jordan]

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&q=are+there+more+gay+teens+today+than+20+years+ago%3F&oq=are+there+more+gay+teens+today+than+20+years+ago%3F&gs_l=serp.12...30282.48996.0.51739.54.39.0.0.0.0.1730.5055.6-2j0j2.4.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..54.0.0.0.CKogKg5Jn2A

There are several sites there that talk about why there are so many more gay teens "coming out" than there were 20 years ago.

Oh, now this is hilarious! :lol:

Remember, your claim was that the youth who are leaving the church are gay. The first link in your search is to an internet forum post. So is the second one. The third one is a book from 15 years ago that says "teens and early 20s are much more savvy than teenagers ten or 20 years ago", which given the date means all those people are in their 30's and 40's now! The 5th link is to Gallup, who says that estimating the number of gays (adults included) in the population is difficult, but that "Americans now tend to overestimate the gay population in America. While most expert estimates place America's homosexual population at 10% or less, Americans tend to guess that the number is higher, around 20%."

Guess who they're talking about Barrd? You. :lol:

Thanks for the laugh. I enjoyed it.

 

[River Jordan]

That's the whole problem, though, isn't it?
Christians say "Look, I cannot violate my faith by participating in what my God has forbidden.

It's more like "I cannot violate my faith by participating in this one sin that I have decided is worth asking about and taking a stand on. Other sins? Meh. I won't even ask about those!"

Followed by head-scratching bewilderment over why people think of you as a hypocrite.

 

[Barrd]

Oh, now this is hilarious! :lol:

Remember, your claim was that the youth who are leaving the church are gay. The first link in your search is to an internet forum post. So is the second one. The third one is a book from 15 years ago that says "teens and early 20s are much more savvy than teenagers ten or 20 years ago", which given the date means all those people are in their 30's and 40's now! The 5th link is to Gallup, who says that estimating the number of gays (adults included) in the population is difficult, but that "Americans now tend to overestimate the gay population in America. While most expert estimates place America's homosexual population at 10% or less, Americans tend to guess that the number is higher, around 20%."

Guess who they're talking about Barrd? You. :lol:

Thanks for the laugh. I enjoyed it.

I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I probably should have investigated those sites for myself.
My remark came from personal experience....all the young people, both friends of my own kids and grandkids, and kids I've talked to online, ever since the days of Yahoo chat, who have told me out of their own mouths that the reason they had left their parents' faith and become atheists was because the church would not accept them for being gay. As a kid whose friends call "Turtle" put it, "if God doesn't want me because I am gay, f---- Him." (I'm sure you can fill in the blank. I am still shocked that a young man who had been raised withing the Christian faith could use such language in reference to God, but I include it in this post to you so that you can understand just why I feel as I do. He is just one example...)

 

[StanJ]

Marriage as an institution is ordained by God, so no, two men can't get married.

I'm sorry, but marriage was not ORDAINED as an institution.
Gen 2:22-24
Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

that is NOT an institution, it is a fact of biology. Man and governments made it an institution, and continue to refine it as we go along in time. That is not something God has changed on throughout scripture.
As Jesus said, in Matthew 19:8;
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Barrd:

Given: You run a funeral parlor. I've committed a murder.
Question: Would you help me bury the body?

Given: You run a pawn shop. I've robbed a house.
Question: Will you help me fence the goods?

Given: You're a babysitter. I'm the father.
Question: Will you help me commit adultery?

And they say there is only one sin you discriminate as not wanting to be a part: Is that true?

 

[Barrd]

It's more like "I cannot violate my faith by participating in this one sin that I have decided is worth asking about and taking a stand on. Other sins? Meh. I won't even ask about those!"

Followed by head-scratching bewilderment over why people think of you as a hypocrite.

Actually, we should not participate in any sin.
And, as I said before, you are free not to participate in whatever sins you know about...in fact, I would recommend that you refrain from doing so.
For instance, I have never contributed to any televangelist asking for more money....no not even once. I have never bought their shoddy merchandise, nor have I recommended that anyone else do so.

Now, this may come as a shock to you, but, River....we do not live in a perfect world.
And every single one of us is guilty of some sin or other...whether we like to admit it or not.
I would be willing to bet that every Christian you know of, including yourself, has been guilty at some time in their lives of the dreaded sin of coveting...that is, jealously longing for something that doesn't belong to you....as in "I wish I had a car like that," or "Gosh, I wonder what it would be like to live in that beautiful house," or some such thing.
Now, I'm not asking you to confess any sins here in this thread....none of my or anyone else's business.
You mentioned the sin of gluttony at one point, as I recall....and I admitted to you that my weakness for food is, for me, a major problem, and yes, I have put on some weight in my old age, and I'm not happy about it, but I can't seem to kick the habit. I'm a food junkie. Pray for me.
And, fapeetsakes, if ever we meet face to face, I would ask you NOT to participate in my sin by offering to buy some fattening lunch...
Does that seem ridiculous? LOL, I suppose, if you are not a food junkie, it probably does, but I assure you, it is a very real problem...I had a "diet buddy" once who was more of a "fat buddy"....she and I both loved to stop at the local Dairy Queen for our favorite treat....hot fudge sundaes...with plenty of whipped cream. Needless to say, the diet didn't work...
It pained me deeply, but I could see that we were only helping each other to indulge in our sin....so I ended the relationship. Oh, we still talk, from time to time...but we do not "hang out" with each other as we once did. And we pray for one another. It is healthler for both of us, and for our families, this way.

Do you honestly think that Christians should support sin? Any sin, River, no matter what sin it is. Should we help some greedy televangelist buy a new jet, for instance, or help him to get a million dollars in donations, because he says that God will kill him if we don't? Of course not.
Should we, like my friend and I, support each other in our gluttony? Should I call her and offer to take her out on a junk food binge? It's tempting....but would it be right? No. And we both know that if we get together, our play date will include a binge lunch at a pizza joint, or a burger barn, or maybe some Italian restaurant...and a stop at the Dairy Queen on the way home. So we have agreed to limit ourselves in this regard, and we pray for one another.

Our gay friends need the same kind of help. If we love them, we do not support their sin...we help them to fight against it. Why? Because we know that, as Paul told us, those that practice those things, or who take pleasure in those who do them, will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
River, to a Christian, God's Word is final.
Do you understand?

 

[Barrd]

I'm sorry, but marriage was not ORDAINED as an institution.
Gen 2:22-24
Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

that is NOT an institution, it is a fact of biology. Man and governments made it an institution, and continue to refine it as we go along in time. That is not something God has changed on throughout scripture.
As Jesus said, in Matthew 19:8;
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

Uh, Stan, my dear, dear brother whom I love in the faith....
Go up a few verses, sweet brother of mine, and read:

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

As you have noted, and Jesus repeated, both here and in the verse you quoted, this was the way God intended "from the beginning"...and now, man thinks to change this definition of marriage to include something that God has expressly forbidden.

And the world expects Christians to endorse this, to support it.....and even to actively participate in it.
Sorry, but we cannot do that.
It is not always easy to follow Jesus.....but it is worth it.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

StanJ:

God set marriage between a man and a woman from the very beginning of man and woman. That's when God made marriage an institution.

Homosexuality is a sin. God said that too.

Moses did not institute marriage; he allowed divorce.

Reading between the lines trying to squeeze a camel through a loophole makes for a very shifty lawyer, not a good disciple.

 

[StanJ]

Uh, Stan, my dear, dear brother whom I love in the faith....
Go up a few verses, sweet brother of mine, and read:

Again, you equivocate about WHAT I say, instead of understanding it. God did NOT create an institution, He created man and women and gave them the power to procreate. FOR THIS REASON, is WHY they come together. There is nothing in the Bible that says a man and a woman HAVE to marry. Feel free to show me where that is.

 

[StanJ]

StanJ:

God set marriage between a man and a woman from the very beginning of man and woman. That's when God made marriage an institution.

Homosexuality is a sin. God said that too.

Moses did not institute marriage; he allowed divorce.

Reading between the lines trying to squeeze a camel through a loophole makes for a very shifty lawyer, not a good disciple.

Read my last post, and I never said Moses instituted marriage. I said marriage is not God's institution, it's mans.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd:

Given: You run a funeral parlor. I've committed a murder.
Question: Would you help me bury the body?

Sorry, Marcus....I like you, Dude, but no, I will not help you hide your sin.
In fact, I'm afraid I am going to have to turn you in to the police.

Given: You run a pawn shop. I've robbed a house.
Question: Will you help me fence the goods?

You didn't even offer me a cut!
Kidding, my friend...the answer is no.
And again, I'm going to have to turn you in to the police.
Sorry.

Given: You're a babysitter. I'm the father.
Question: Will you help me commit adultery?

No, you filthy creep, and if you do not get your hands off of me you'll be pulling back a stump!
And don't think I will not tell your wife about this....and my Dad!
You're in trouble, Dude!

And they say there is only one sin you discriminate as not wanting to be a part: Is that true?

No, that is not true.

 

[Barrd]

Again, you equivocate about WHAT I say, instead of understanding it. God did NOT create an institution, He created man and women and gave them the power to procreate. FOR THIS REASON, is WHY they come together. There is nothing in the Bible that says a man and a woman HAVE to marry. Feel free to show me where that is.

Oh, Stan, I do hope you are kidding.
What do you think the phrase "became one flesh" means?
All through the Bible we find the concept of marriage.
I am completely amazed to hear a Christian tell me that God did NOT ordain marriage, when Jesus very plainly says that He did.
Why would He have attended a wedding, and provided wine for it?
There are many verses that talk about the consequences of sex outside of marriage...for instance, if a virgin lies with a man outside of the city, the people were to assume that he had raped her, and stone him. If they were within the city, they were to assume that they both had sinned.
And if a man took a wife and found that she was not a virgin, he could have her stoned. To insure his daughter's safety, the father went the morning after the marriage and collected "the tokens of her virginity"
Yes, there were harlots, and men took concubines....but, as Jesus noted, men's hearts were hard, and God went easy on them...but now, we know better, and there is no more cover for our sins, as He told us.

Do you really believe that sex outside of a committed marriage relationship between a man and a woman is not a sin?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Read my last post, and I never said Moses instituted marriage. I said marriage is not God's institution, it's mans.

Moses is the only man you referenced. Moses did not institute marriage; God instituted marriage. Moses just modified what was already there.

From the beginning... it has been man and woman.

 

[Barrd]

Marriage has existed since the very beginning of time. It was not instituted by man...it has existed for as long as man has existed.

 

[mjrhealth]

Marriage is not an instituion from God thats from man. Gods idea of marriage and amns are not quiet the same. Lets explain.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

To put it into perspective. its not about the piece of paper nor the ceremony, the piece of paper is a man made requirement to be legally entitled to freebies from the government. So you see when a man and a woman have sex; and the man sows his seed into 5the women, they in Gods eyes are married. To make it quiet clear.

Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

See she had all these "husbands" yet none of them where.

Now we who are in christ have become His bride, married to Him, now how can that be. Well when we come to Christ, God sows His seed, the Holy Spirit, into us that spirit which once in you bears life, for that is what He is sent to do, just as when Mary accepted Gods word, and His seed was sown into her and life was created and became Jesus.

So you see. a man cannot mary a man and a women cannot mary a women as there is no way for one to seed the other and he the other to have life cretaed. Its all about creation and life.; Before teh fall, Adam would not have needed Eve, being as God was, what he spoke would of being created, with teh fall of man, God needed a way for man to create life from teh flesh.

Isnt He wonderfull.

In all His Love

 

[mjrhealth]

So between John and you, I guess somebody's wrong and I'm betting we never see either an apology for your insults nor a retraction of your statement.

Yes it is amazing how quickly christians get offended is teh correct term. Does His love offend you, would you rathe rI close with something Else.

Lets do some more pondering. Mind you this post has gone way off track anyway as most do,

Have yopu ever wondered why those in Christ suffer as much as everyone else. It is quiet simple.

How can one talk to teh lost when one has never being lost.
How can one speak to teh lonely if one has never being alone.
How can one speak of love when one has never being truly loved
How can one spek to those contemplating suicide when one has never being there themself,
How can one speak of God when one doesnt know God or His heart.
How can one speak to those suffering if one has never suffered,
how can one speak of the cross if one has never being there and died, than raised up into eternal life.
How can one speak of teh narrow road when one has never walked it,
how can one speak of grace when one has never received it,
how can one speak of life if one has never died.
and how can one speak of Christ crucifixion and the pain He suffered when one has never suffered as He did.

In all His most wonderfull love

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Marriage is not an instituion from God thats from man.

God instituted marriage from the creation of Adam and Eve. No man decreed that.

 

[Barrd]

God instituted marriage from the creation of Adam and Eve. No man decreed that.

God calls Eve Adam's wife from the very beginning:

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

 

[StanJ]

God instituted marriage from the creation of Adam and Eve. No man decreed that.

Where EXACTLY did God institute marriage?