Anti- Christian Crusade.

[StanJ]

It depends on what you mean by "discriminate".

Suppose I own a Christian bakery.
A customer comes in and asks for a dozen cupcakes for a chlldren's sleep-over party. I know that she is a lesbian, but that has nothing to do with the children's sleepover, does it?
So there is no reason I should deny her request, is there?
Now, if she had asked for a wedding cake for a gay wedding, I would have to refuse, because now she wants me to directly involve myself in supporting her sin. Do you see the difference?

Or maybe I own a Christian print shop.
A man comes in and asks me to print up a few hundred business cards for his interior decorating business. I know he is gay, but his request has nothing to do with his sexual preferences, only his business. So there is no reason why I should not accommodate him.
However, if he were to ask me to provide wedding invitations for his gay wedding anniversary party, again, I would have to refuse.

I am a florist. A lady comes in, wanting a pretty centerpiece for her Thanksgiving table. She has invited her family and friends to have Thanksgiving dinner at her house. I know that she is a lesbian, but her request has nothing to do with her sexual preference. So I have no problem doing an arrangement for her.
However, if she were to ask for flowers for a gay wedding....well, perhaps you are beginning to see what I'm talking about.

It isn't about not serving gays at all, Stan, nobody has said that. It is about not participating in the sin.

Sorry, I apparently missed your response here.

This issue has been done to death Barrd, and quite frankly if I owned a bakery I wouldn't stop anyone from ordering my product. Personal issues are just that, and IF an owner does not want to do business with anyone, they don't have to, and don't have to give them a reason either. If that owner makes it an issue in the press, then the REAL issue is not selling to gays, but forcing your personal faith on unbelievers, which we have NO mandate for in scriptures.

Same goes for the print man.

Same goes for the flower lady.

In THIS case or issue, you could only PARTICIPATE, if you were gay. In my over 35 years of running business', my work was never used to condone a person's personal choices. You would be VERY surprised I think, if you were to look into your current list of suppliers and see what they ARE involved with. Why would you rent a video from a supplier that also rents PORN? Or shop at a store that also sold cigarettes? Or use the web as it contains much porn, hate and criminality?

 

[Barrd]

Where EXACTLY did God institute marriage?

Didn't I just quote that for you?
Here, I will quote it again, only with all the details:


Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(What do you think a "help meet" means?)

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
(I'm pretty sure God knew that they would not find a mate for Adam amongst the animals.)

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
And there it is.

 

[StanJ]

Didn't I just quote that for you?
Here, I will quote it again, only with all the details:

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(What do you think a "help meet" means?)
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
(I'm pretty sure God knew that they would not find a mate for Adam amongst the animals.)
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
And there it is.

LOL....I was asking Marcus, and those scriptures do NOT convey that God instituted marriage. They show why v24 happens, because of v23, but it was Adam who instigated it, not God. No doubt that was what was meant to happen as a means to expand mankind.
Marriage is a purely social thing.

 

[Barrd]

Sorry, I apparently missed your response here.

This issue has been done to death Barrd, and quite frankly if I owned a bakery I wouldn't stop anyone from ordering my product. Personal issues are just that, and IF an owner does not want to do business with anyone, they don't have to, and don't have to give them a reason either. If that owner makes it an issue in the press, then the REAL issue is not selling to gays, but forcing your personal faith on unbelievers, which we have NO mandate for in scriptures.

Same goes for the print man.

Same goes for the flower lady.

In THIS case or issue, you could only PARTICIPATE, if you were gay. In my over 35 years of running business', my work was never used to condone a person's personal choices. You would be VERY surprised I think, if you were to look into your current list of suppliers and see what they ARE involved with. Why would you rent a video from a supplier that also rents PORN? Or shop at a store that also sold cigarettes? Or use the web as it contains much porn, hate and criminality?

What I actually am is a writer. I write and sell Christian themed books. I'm doing rather well with "The First Sinner"....and I am hoping that a publishing house might pick it up. (I'm self-published).
I don't meet the majority of my readers face to face, but I am aware of at least one transgendered person who has read my work and enjoyed it very much, and I do believe one of the people who stopped by and bought "Tale of a Sinful Woman", which is the story of the prostitute who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, was a lesbian. She also came back to tell me how much she enjoyed the story and she bought a couple more books.
I tell you this to tell you that I do sell my "product" to people who are gay....but I can also tell you with a clean conscience that my stories, poems, prayers, and songs do not support the gay lifestyle in any way, shape, or form. If anything, I can hope that my work might, in some small way, help bring these people closer to God.

Currently, I am not renting any videos....I have satellite, which more than fills the need. And, no, I do not have any porn channels, although I know they are available. There are "parental controls" available, and I do use them.
My grocery store does also sell cigarettes, but as I do not smoke, that is not a problem.
Nor do I involve myself with porn, hate, or criminality on the web.
I go to a bakery sometimes here in town. I don't know if they've ever done a wedding cake for any gay couples, but even if they have, how would that affect me?
I'm pretty sure there have been gay couples in our local Inn, does that mean I should not eat in their restaurant? Gosh, I rented a room there for several days once when there was a plumbing problem at my house....do you suppose that means that I supported some gay couple?

Seriously, my friend, I really think you are reaching, here...

 

[StanJ]

What I actually am is a writer. I write and sell Christian themed books. I'm doing rather well with "The First Sinner"....and I am hoping that a publishing house might pick it up. (I'm self-published).
I don't meet the majority of my readers face to face, but I am aware of at least one transgendered person who has read my work and enjoyed it very much, and I do believe one of the people who stopped by and bought "Tale of a Sinful Woman", which is the story of the prostitute who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, was a lesbian. She also came back to tell me how much she enjoyed the story and she bought a couple more books.
I tell you this to tell you that I do sell my "product" to people who are gay....but I can also tell you with a clean conscience that my stories, poems, prayers, and songs do not support the gay lifestyle in any way, shape, or form. If anything, I can hope that my work might, in some small way, help bring these people closer to God.

Again with the apples and oranges Barrd, and I have no problem with this AT ALL! Good on you. ^_^

 

[StanJ]

Currently, I am not renting any videos....I have satellite, which more than fills the need. And, no, I do not have any porn channels, although I know they are available. There are "parental controls" available, and I do use them.
My grocery store does also sell cigarettes, but as I do not smoke, that is not a problem.
Nor do I involve myself with porn, hate, or criminality on the web.
I go to a bakery sometimes here in town. I don't know if they've ever done a wedding cake for any gay couples, but even if they have, how would that affect me?
I'm pretty sure there have been gay couples in our local Inn, does that mean I should not eat in their restaurant? Gosh, I rented a room there for several days once when there was a plumbing problem at my house....do you suppose that means that I supported some gay couple?

Seriously, my friend, I really think you are reaching, here...

I really can't tell if you're being obtuse on purpose or not, but I think you KNOW what I was getting at.

What exactly am I reaching for?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Where EXACTLY did God institute marriage?

In the Garden of Eden. Why don't you read Genesis? Barrd has already posted the relevant verses. Before any other men, Adam was married to Eve.

Jesus said: "From the beginning..." and as He was there, and as the Son of God, He well knows that.

 

[Barrd]

Again with the apples and oranges Barrd, and I have no problem with this AT ALL! Good on you. ^_^

Thank you.
And I prefer grapes with a bit of cheddar cheese...

 

[Barrd]

I really can't tell if you're being obtuse on purpose or not, but I think you KNOW what I was getting at.

What exactly am I reaching for?

For some reason, you want me to think that if I were to rent a video at some place where they also rent porn, then even if my video were as innocent as Bambi himself, I would somehow be involving myself in the sin of pornography.
You are reaching for my conscience, I think....but I'm afraid you missed, my friend.

You do realize that we walk among sinners every day, right? Does that mean that we are to support these sins, or involve ourselves in them? No, of course not.
And, Hon....always use those little wipes when you go to the grocery store...wipe you cart. And carry some of those wipes with you and use them on door handles and such in public, and use one of those toilet seat covers if you need to use a public rest room . Seriously, MRSA is a very dangerous threat, for real. I took a can of Lysol and some Clorox wipes with me when I had to stay at our local Inn, and I sprayed the bed and wiped everything I had to touch with the Clorox wipes.
As I have told in this thread, I had a very dear and beautiful friend die of staph infection, brought to her home by her gay cousin. That is when I first heard of MRSA. The hospital wouldn't even let me in to see my friend without a mask, gloves, covers on my shoes and hair, and a hospital gown over my clothes, and even then they told me that, when I got home I should bathe with Dial soap and wash my clothes with antibacterial detergent, which I did. After her death, she was buried in a closed coffin, and the room she had occupied had to be completely cleaned with bleach before anyone else could use it.
The house her family had lived in also had to be completely cleaned with bleach and any furniture burned before it could be occupied again.
Her suffering and her family's suffering, was terrible. It is a slow, lingering death....not pretty at all. You do not want to become infected with this stuff, Stan.
Now, I'm not saying that gay men are the only carriers...but they are a major threat.
Don't take my word for it....peruse these sites and draw your own conclusions:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&site=&source=hp&q=sodomy+and+MRSA&oq=sodomy+and+MRSA&gs_l=hp.12...1672.5554.0.7733.16.11.0.0.0.0.1890.1890.8-1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..16.0.0.0.6pZbbypRSb4

 

[StanJ]

For some reason, you want me to think that if I were to rent a video at some place where they also rent porn, then even if my video were as innocent as Bambi himself, I would somehow be involving myself in the sin of pornography.
You are reaching for my conscience, I think....but I'm afraid you missed, my friend.

Not in the least....I am trying to show you HOW doing something does not mean you support the sins of others. You are the one that is saying doing normal things means you support the sins of others. I'm not really sure WHY you think this way, but obviously my ridiculous comparisons got through.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I won't bake a "wedding" cake for two homosexuals.

I don't have to be in their bed with them to be "involved" with their sin.

Homosexual marriage is an affront to my religious beliefs and I would violate them by making a cake alone because of what it stands for - something which goes against my religious beliefs.

In the exercise of my religion, I am bound to stand for its principles.

Ephesians 5:7

 

[Barrd]

Not in the least....I am trying to show you HOW doing something does not mean you support the sins of others. You are the one that is saying doing normal things means you support the sins of others. I'm not really sure WHY you think this way, but obviously my ridiculous comparisons got through.

No, Stan. Me renting a video from some store that rents porn is not the same thing as me renting porn to someone.
While I have characters who do make love, there is no overt sex in any of my books.
Me shopping in a grocery store where cigarettes are sold is not the same thing as me buying them and selling them to minors, as I have seen some folks do.
your comparisons, my friend, were as you say, ridiculous.

 

[StanJ]

No, Stan. Me renting a video from some store that rents porn is not the same thing as me renting porn to someone.
While I have characters who do make love, there is no overt sex in any of my books.
Me shopping in a grocery store where cigarettes are sold is not the same thing as me buying them and selling them to minors, as I have seen some folks do.
your comparisons, my friend, were as you say, ridiculous.

Your failure to grasp what I am saying is beyond my ability to resolve. You don't get the point, even though you make the same point in your first sentence above. I'm NOT talking about you sinning, I'm talking about others sinning in the same places you do not.
Again, I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp, other than you just like to or need to be contrary?

 

[StanJ]

I won't bake a "wedding" cake for two homosexuals.

I don't have to be in their bed with them to be "involved" with their sin.

Homosexual marriage is an affront to my religious beliefs and I would violate them by making a cake alone because of what it stands for - something which goes against my religious beliefs.

In the exercise of my religion, I am bound to stand for its principles.

Ephesians 5:7

Those are your choices, alone. They do NOT make them obligatory for everyone else.
Who is asking you to partner with unbelievers? You quote one tiny verse from Paul here and yet seem to forget or not know he also said;
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Taking the high moral ground is not the same as being a morally high sounding self righteous Pharisee. Luke 18:9-14

 

[Barrd]

Your failure to grasp what I am saying is beyond my ability to resolve. You don't get the point, even though you make the same point in your first sentence above. I'm NOT talking about you sinning, I'm talking about others sinning in the same places you do not.
Again, I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp, other than you just like to or need to be contrary?

But we are not talking about whether or not it would be okay for me to marry a lesbian, or insist that a Christian baker bake a cake for my lesbian wedding, are we?
We aren't even talking about whether or not it would be okay for me to buy a wedding cake for my straight wedding in the same store as the lesbians bought their gay wedding cake from.

What we are talking about is whether or not it is ok for me to bake a cake for a lesbian wedding. Once I do that, I have become directly involved in the wedding, and thus, the sin.

Suppose I own a gun shop. A customer comes in and tells me he wants to shoot his wife. Should I sell him the gun? Why or why not?

 

[River Jordan]

Actually, we should not participate in any sin.

Yet homosexuality is the only one worth even asking about. Huh. <_<

And, as I said before, you are free not to participate in whatever sins you know about...in fact, I would recommend that you refrain from doing so.

And how do I do that? Go around asking everyone I interact or have financial transactions with what sin they're guilty of? Should I carry around a checklist?

Now, this may come as a shock to you, but, River....we do not live in a perfect world.
And every single one of us is guilty of some sin or other...whether we like to admit it or not.

Which means pretty much no matter who we give our money to, or who we provide services to, we will be "supporting sin" in one way or another. Huh. <_<

Do you honestly think that Christians should support sin?

I think the way conservative Christians have set it up, just about every financial and business transaction qualifies as "supporting sin", while at the same time making it to where homosexuality is the only sin worth worrying about.

Our gay friends need the same kind of help. If we love them, we do not support their sin...we help them to fight against it. Why? Because we know that, as Paul told us, those that practice those things, or who take pleasure in those who do them, will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
River, to a Christian, God's Word is final.
Do you understand?

Oh, I understand plenty.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Your criticism is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Barrd]

Yet homosexuality is the only one worth even asking about. Huh. <_<

I don't think I ever said anything even remotely like that. Nor has anyone else that I know of.

And how do I do that? Go around asking everyone I interact or have financial transactions with what sin they're guilty of? Should I carry around a checklist?

I don't believe I said that, either.
Some sins you already know about. For instance, when some televangelist asks for money so that he can buy a new jet, because his old one is out of date, you know this is a sinner, and you do not send him any money. When the Red Cross makes a drive, on the other hand, you donate, right? I do, anyhow.
I'll bet that if you have an overweight friend whose sin is gluttony, you do not give them candy for Valentine's Day....you would opt for flowers instead, right?
You do not contribute to these sins.

Which means pretty much no matter who we give our money to, or who we provide services to, we will be "supporting sin" in one way or another. Huh. <_<

I suppose you could look at it that way....I mean, when I pay the butcher for my meat, he could go and use the money for some sinful purpose, that is true.
That is not the same thing as me providing him with whatever he needs to do his sin, is it? It is me buying a commodity that I and my family need.

I think the way conservative Christians have set it up, just about every financial and business transaction qualifies as "supporting sin", while at the same time making it to where homosexuality is the only sin worth worrying about.

Hun, "Conservative Christians" did not "set it up."
God did. We are just trying to obey Him to the best of our ability.

Oh, I understand plenty.

No, Hun, i don't think you do.
You tell me that you are a Christian, and I believe you.
So, I'm going to assume that your final authority, like mine, is the Word of God. If it is not, then there is no point in having this conversation with you.
If it is, then I offer this scripture in a sincere effort to help you to understand:


Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

We know the judgment of God, and we know that those who do the things he is speaking of are worthy of death....as are those who take pleasure in them that do them.
We are forbidden from doing these things...and we are forbidden to have to do with those who do practice these things.

 

[River Jordan]

I don't think I ever said anything even remotely like that. Nor has anyone else that I know of.

That's how "can't support sin in any way" is being practiced. We don't see cases of Christians refusing to do business with fornicators, adulterers, gluttons, lovers of money.......just gays.

I don't believe I said that, either.
Some sins you already know about.

And conservative Christians are going out of their way to make sure they "know about" homosexuality, but not other sins. Huh. <_<

I suppose you could look at it that way....I mean, when I pay the butcher for my meat, he could go and use the money for some sinful purpose, that is true.
That is not the same thing as me providing him with whatever he needs to do his sin, is it? It is me buying a commodity that I and my family need.

Oh, so if it's something you need, then it's ok. Funny how that works.

Hun, "Conservative Christians" did not "set it up."
God did. We are just trying to obey Him to the best of our ability.

No you're not. You're singling out one sin from all the others.

I offer this scripture in a sincere effort to help you to understand:

Yet despite that list of all types of sin, it's only homosexuality that's worth even asking about. Huh. <_<

we are forbidden to have to do with those who do practice these things.

Yet you do, likely every single day. But only homosexuality is worth actually bothering to ask about. Huh. <_<

 

[Barrd]

That's how "can't support sin in any way" is being practiced. We don't see cases of Christians refusing to do business with fornicators, adulterers, gluttons, lovers of money.......just gays.

Of course, we do.
We see Christians refusing to support those greedy televangelists. Why aren't you making a big deal out of me saying that I will not send them money, or buy their merchandise?
We see Christians refusing to support gluttony. I told you about my chubby friend, and how we have stopped hanging around each other, because we contribute to each other's gluttony...why aren't you ranting about that?
I notice you did not address my post where I said, if I owned a gun shop and a customer came in and told me he wanted a gun to shoot his wife with, I would refuse to sell him one....of course, it was not addressed to you directly, but it is an open forum. You aren't fussing at me for "discriminating" against this guy. Why?
Suppose it's an adult who wants to use my photography studio to take pornographic pictures of kids? Would it be okay to turn him down?
It seems to me that it is not "Conservative Christians" who are singling out one sin....looks a bit like at least one Liberal is guilty of this.

And conservative Christians are going out of their way to make sure they "know about" homosexuality, but not other sins. Huh. <_<

I don't know of any who are.
Frankly, I'd rather not know. The transgendered guy who bought my book volunteered that information, and I knew the woman was a lesbian because my grandson had had a crush on her, and she explained to him why it was never gonna happen.

Oh, so if it's something you need, then it's ok. Funny how that works.

Hey, for all I know, that butcher might take my meat money and go buy Bibles for deprived orphans.
Would I get extra credit in Heaven for paying for my meat, then?
No....
All I did was buy meat.

No you're not. You're singling out one sin from all the others.

That, my girl, is a judgment call that you have no right to make.
God will judge my motives.


And yours....

Yet despite that list of all types of sin, it's only homosexuality that's worth even asking about. Huh. <_<

I don't ask about it.

Yet you do, likely every single day. But only homosexuality is worth actually bothering to ask about. Huh. <_<

I do not willingly have to do with any of these things, and I sure do not contribute to any of them.
I'm sure plenty of such folks have bought my books, and again, I can hope that my work might bring them closer to God.
Anyone who buys a book from me has my email addy.....my real email addy.....and I actually do answer people who write to me.
So far almost everyone who has written has told me how much they love my work.

Except for one Jewish guy...why he'd purchase a Christian novel is beyond me, but he let me know that he did not like my description of events leading up to the crucifixion. He especially did not like me including the Jews' cry "His blood be on us and on our children".
Ahh, well....you can't please everyone!