Anti- Christian Crusade.

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Barrd

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StanJ said:
Not the same thing Barrd. You have a definite propensity for comparing apples to oranges.
That sounds like an opinion.

If my government tells me that I must do something that God has forbidden, such as support a sinner in his sin, then I cannot comply, because God has said that I may not support a sinner in his sin.

It really is that simple.
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
Still public.
Read the rules. You must be a Christian to post here.

I doubt very much you can or are even willing to separate your Christianity from your American status. You already made that clear through your posts.
Again you do have a propensity for comparing apples to oranges. You may not care, but the government does, so how sad is that?
You are quite right. I cannot separate my Christianity from my American status. Christian is part of who I am. I am a Christian first, and an American second. And no, I would not be willing to have it any other way. I belong to Jesus Christ...I am completely His property.
Why should the government care?
Or doesn't the First Amendment give me the right to practice my religion?


So you're OK with gays having sex in their bedrooms but just not doing it in public? Funny, cuz that is your governments POV as well?
Let me clarify.
I would not say that I am OK with them having sex...especially sodomy, because, as I stated, gay men are a major reason why MRSA is getting to be such a problem.
Not to mention that I am not cool with anyone paving their own road to hell...it is a sin, remember. And Paul did tell us that those who do these things will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
However, I would probably not have been as outspoken about it if they had kept their lifestyle at home.
Parading it through the streets was bad enough....insisting on the right to marry was over the top. And I am still shocked that my government actually saw fit to give them this right.
Fagoshsakes, don't you realize that this is not only a grievous sin, but it is a PERVERSION? The Home of the Brave is now The Land of the Gay?
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
Good to hear, by why have you not been doing that for gays then? Your previous posts don't convey what you just did here.
Now, how do you think you know what I have or have not done for gays?
Perhaps you missed it, so I will repeat, for your benefit....
My husband had a nephew who was what they call "flaming". Definitely gay.
I took him into my home when he had nowhere else to go. I fed him, I bought him some new jeans and some new shoes...I even let him drive my car.
And I shared the gospel with him.
We talked far into the night.

Today, my nephew Scotty is happily married....to a woman....and they have three beautiful little girls. Well, not so little any more...the oldest has a baby of her own, although I haven't seen her yet. But Scotty tells me that she is just beautiful, just like her grandmother.

So, you see, it can happen....if the person wants it badly enough. And if someone loves him enough to tell him the truth, and to support him while he struggles to find his way out of his confusion.

It is not love to approve of their sin, and encourage them in it. It is not love to send them to hell with a hug and a smile....and a wedding cake.
I don't understand why you, Stan, a man I know is serious about his Christian faith, do not understand that.

Perhaps you've spent too much time separating your faith from your American status....
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
I'm not responsible for any other kids but mine, My responsibilities are clearly defined in God's word, and He does NOT tell me to raise up other children. My kids and their kids and their kids will KNOW, as I have raised them as I should have.
So, you think that your attitude toward other people's kids is okay with God? I wonder...

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Now you're just sounding paranoid Barrd, and again not comparing apples to oranges. Do you really think the end times will NOT come?
I suggest you read Revelation, because it is established as what WILL happen in the future. Do you believe that Americans can repent and avoid the great tribulation to come?
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

My kids will be ready.


You can DO whatever you want to do. You can find an Episcopalian church that does not feel that way or you can attend an Anglican church that does NOT accept the changes that the Episcopal Church has instituted.
BTW, and FYI, The leader of the worldwide Anglican Communion, which includes the Episcopal Church, released a statement expressing his “deep concern” over the U.S. Episcopal Church’s resolution to change the definition of marriage.
“Its decision will cause distress for some and have ramifications for the Anglican Communion as a whole,” Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby said, “as well as for its ecumenical and interfaith relationships.”
For the time being, we are worshiping with a couple of other families in a "home church".
And I already know about the Archbishop's concern. But thank you for posting it anyway.


You may want to let them know how you feel rather than vilifying gays.
Nobody here is "vilifying gays."
 

mjrhealth

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And God says to Jesus,

who are all of these, why are they not with us??

Jesus says to God, they are the gays, lesbians and so called homosexuals of teh world, teh devil has cause to stop them entering in.

God turns to satan, Why satan can these not enter in, what is it that you have that keeps them here.

Oh they are sinners God all of them.

Ang God responds, and what eveidence do you have for this, all there sins have being paid for.

Sorry God, not according to all these here with and in agreement with me.

And who are these people you speak of, that would do such a thing.

Oh its funny God, they call themselves christians but they love pointing out everyone elses faults, I have so many of them on my side, they do make it hard for you do they not.

And Jesus and God shed more tears for mankind.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Gay marriage is forbidden.

Mt 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The best interpretation of these difficult verses says that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets in that they point to him, and he is their fulfillment. The antithesis is not between "abolish" and "keep" but between "abolish" and "fulfill." "For Matthew, then, it is not the question of Jesus 'relation to the law that is in doubt but rather its relation to him!" (Robert Banks, "Matthew's Understanding of the Law: Authenticity and Interpretation in Matthew 5:17- 20," JBL 93 [1974]:226- 42).

Three theological conclusions are inevitable.

1. If the antitheses (vv. 21- 48) are understood in the light of this interpretation of vv. 17- 20, then Jesus is not primarily engaged there in extending, annulling, or intensifying OT law, but in showing the direction in which it points, on the basis of his own authority (to which, again, the OT points). This may work out in any particular case to have the same practical effect as "intensifying" the law or "annulling" some element; but the reasons for that conclusion are quite different. On the ethical implications of this interpretation, see the competent essay by Moo ("Jesus").

2. If vv. 17- 20 are essentially authentic (see esp. W. D. Davies, "Matthew 5:17, 18," Christian Origins and Judaism [London:DLT, 1962], pp. 31- 66; and Banks, "Matthew's Understanding") and the above interpretation is sound, the christological implications are important. Here Jesus presents himself as the eschatological goal of the OT, and thereby its sole authoritative interpreter, the one through whom alone the OT finds its valid continuity and significance.

3. This approach eliminates the need to pit Matthew against Paul, or Palestinian Jewish Christians against Pauline Gentile believers, the first lot adhering to Mosaic stipulations and the second abandoning them. Nor do we need the solution of Brice Martin, who argues that Matthew's approach to law and Paul's approach are non complementary but noncontradictory: they simply employ different categories. This fails to wrestle with Matthew's positioning of Jesus within the history of redemption; and Paul well understood that the Law and the Prophets pointed beyond them selves (e. g., Rom 3:21; Gal 3:4; cf. Rom 8:4). The focus returns to Jesus, which is where, on the face of it, both Paul and Matthew intend it to be. The groundwork is laid out in the Gospels for an understanding of Jesus as the one who established the essentially christological and eschatological approach to the OT employed by Paul. But this is made clearer in v. 18.

Mt 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 These are the things which defile the man.

17- 20 Verse 17 explains that "what goes into a man's mouth" (v. 11) is merely food, which passes through the body and is excreted (lit., "is cast into a latrine"). On the sanitary conditions of the time, cf. Edward Neufeld, "Hygiene Conditions in Ancient Israel," Biblical Archaeologist 34 (1971):42- 66. Verses 18- 20 explain that "what comes out of a man's mouth" (v. 11), and what makes him unclean, comes from his heart (see on 12:34- 35). Matthew's list of the heart's products (v. 19) is shorter than Mark's. After the first, "evil thoughts," the list follows the same order as the sixth and seventh commandments, followed by porneia ("sexual immorality"; see on 19:3- 12), the order of the eighth and ninth commandments, and finally "slander," which probably includes blasphemy (cf. 12:31). The list itself negates (as Banks [Jesus, pp. 143- 44] points out) Kilpatrick's suggestion that Matthew has transformed Mark's principle of morals into a precept of law (Origins, p. 38).

It would be puerile to ask how every item on the list results directly in defiling speech. The point, as in 12:34- 35, is that what a man truly is affects what he says and does. Jesus presupposes that the heart is essentially evil (cf. 7:11). But the burden of this pericope is not to be pure on the inside and forget the externals but that what ultimately defiles a man is what he really is. Jesus is not spiritualizing the OT but insisting that true religion must deal with the nature of man and not with mere externals.

Mt 19:4b "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ' For this reason A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh '? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Note 4- 6 Jesus aligns himself with the prophet Malachi, who quotes Yahweh as saving, "I hate divorce" (2:16), and also refers to creation (2:14- 15). Jesus cites first Genesis 1:27 and then Genesis 2:24. The Creator made the race "male and female" (v. 4):the implication is that the two sexes should be united in marriage. But lest the implication be missed, the Creator then said that "for this reason" (v. 5)-- because God made them so-- a man will leave father and mother, be united to his wife, and become one flesh (cf. Ecclesiasticus 25:26; Eph 5:28- 31).

The words "for this reason" in Genesis 2:24 refer to Adam's perception that the woman was "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh" because she had been made from him and for him-- i. e., the man and the woman were in the deepest sense "related." The same thing is implied by Genesis 1:27-- i. e., the "one flesh" in every marriage between a man and a woman is a reenactment of and testimony to the very structure of humanity as God created it.

"So" (hoste here is "simply an inferential particle" [Moule, Idiom Book, p. 144]), Jesus concludes, the husband and wife are no longer two but one, and that by God's doing (v. 6). If God has joined them together, according to the structure of his own creation, divorce is not only "unnatural" but rebellion against God. God and man are so far apart on this issue that what God unites, man divides.

Jesus 'response cuts through a great deal of casuistry and sets forth a dominant perspective that must not be lost in the exegetical tangles of v. 9. Two profound insights must be grasped.

1. Although Jewish leaders tended to analyze adultery in terms, not of infidelity to one's spouse, but of taking someone else's wife (cf. M Ketuboth and M Kiddushin), Jesus dealt with the sanctity of marriage by focusing on the God- ordained unity of the couple.

2. Jesus essentially appealed to the principle, "The more original, the weightier," an accepted form of argument in Jewish exegesis (cf. Paul in Gal 3:15- 18); and it is impossible to go further back than creation for the responsibilities of mankind. If marriage is grounded in creation, in the way God has made us, then it cannot be reduced to a merely covenantal relationship that breaks down when the covenantal promises are broken (contra David Atkinson, To Have and to Hold:The Marriage Covenant and the Discipline of Divorce [London:Collins, 1979], esp. pp. 114ff.). But the argument in this instance leaves unanswered the question of how the Mosaic law is to be taken; and therefore the stage is set for the Pharisees' next question.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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mjrhealth said:
And God says to Jesus,

who are all of these, why are they not with us??

Jesus says to God, they are the gays, lesbians and so called homosexuals of teh world, teh devil has cause to stop them entering in.

God turns to satan, Why satan can these not enter in, what is it that you have that keeps them here.

Oh they are sinners God all of them.

Ang God responds, and what eveidence do you have for this, all there sins have being paid for.

Sorry God, not according to all these here with and in agreement with me.

And who are these people you speak of, that would do such a thing.

Oh its funny God, they call themselves christians but they love pointing out everyone elses faults, I have so many of them on my side, they do make it hard for you do they not.

And Jesus and God shed more tears for mankind.
Wow, that's really cute, and it misses a lot of the meat in the Bible.

Paul said:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Coming to Christ means you must repent of your sin.
The homosexual is welcome in my Church.
If they profess belief in Christ and want to continue in that belief - they must repent of their sin. They cannot continue to wantonly, willfully sin and still expect forgiveness when, in their pride, they wallow in their sin.

If that cuts too hard, too bad. It admonishes me as well as you on some of our little "pet" sins.

Jesus said:

Jn 8:51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

If you think you can disobey God's Commands wantonly, willfully, and by mouthing a few prayers just go about your way - you might be woefully unprepared for what comes hereafter.

In like fashion, the homosexual who sees no crime in the perversity he wallows in, and he or she attempts to drag others into their little pit of filth - have they proven their faith by their actions? Yeah, they have proven they have no real faith at all despite what they say.
 

River Jordan

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What we see around us today are people, especially young people, abandoning Christianity in droves. Some data suggests they can't leave fast enough. And when asked why they're leaving the faith and/or why they're not even considering it in the first place, one of the reasons they give is they see Christians as both hateful and hypocritical when it comes to gays. Looking through the latest posts from Marcus and Barrd in this thread, I can see why. Apparently gays are diseased predators who can't be trusted not to rape children.

Simply put you two....when it comes to the decline of Christianity in the US, you're a huge part of the problem. I hope you're happy with yourselves.
 

Barrd

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River Jordan said:
What we see around us today are people, especially young people, abandoning Christianity in droves. Some data suggests they can't leave fast enough. And when asked why they're leaving the faith and/or why they're not even considering it in the first place, one of the reasons they give is they see Christians as both hateful and hypocritical when it comes to gays. Looking through the latest posts from Marcus and Barrd in this thread, I can see why. Apparently gays are diseased predators who can't be trusted not to rape children.

Simply put you two....when it comes to the decline of Christianity in the US, you're a huge part of the problem. I hope you're happy with yourselves.
Let me see if I can explain this to you.

God has forbidden homosexuality.
Whether you agree with Him or not, He is the final authority on the subject.
And He has said "no." That is the end of any argument.

Now, if these kids who are leaving Christianity in droves are pitting themselves against His clear Word, then it really wouldn't matter even if they had remained. They will still end up in the same place. God's Word is final. That is the end of any argument.

Marcus is not the one who said that homosexuality is an abomination, nor am I.
God is the one Who said it.
And that is the end of any argument.

So, I guess, by your logic, it is God Who is driving these kids away from Christianity. It is God Who says that gays are sinners. And God is the final authority on the subject. And that is the end of any argument.

Then, again, being a Christian does not mean following other Christians.
It means following Jesus Christ.
Even if every other person calling him/herself a Christian is, as you say, a "hateful jerk", so what?
Quit worrying about what other people are doing, and work out your own salvation in fear and trembling....

So, you see, there really is no point in arguing with me, or with Marcus.
You can try arguing with God about it....but I don't think it will do any good.
 

Barrd

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And again, River, do you not realize that a great many of these kids who are "leaving Christianity in droves" are doing so because they are actually "gay" themselves?


Or at least they think they are. It has become very "in" to be gay...and kids are so concerned with their public image. Better to be gay than to be unpopular, isn't it?
That's all a part of the confusion...
 

River Jordan

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The Barrd said:
And again, River, do you not realize that a great many of these kids who are "leaving Christianity in droves" are doing so because they are actually "gay" themselves?


Or at least they think they are. It has become very "in" to be gay...and kids are so concerned with their public image. Better to be gay than to be unpopular, isn't it?
That's all a part of the confusion...
Every time I think this can't get any more absurd, you crank it up another notch. You've become so ridiculous, I'm almost wondering if you're trolling.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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River Jordan said:
I'm almost wondering if you're trolling.

Said the troll...


If you won't recognize the pervasive problem that sexual sin is in this culture and time, then you might not be able to deal with the problem of pedophilia, bestiality, bondage/discipline and sadistic/masochism that goes along with the perversion that comes with homosexuality.

And if you want us to water down the Bible and smooth over sin so people can continue to sin and feel good about - then you ARE the problem in these latter days.

Denial: it's not just a river in Egypt.
 

Barrd

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River Jordan said:
Every time I think this can't get any more absurd, you crank it up another notch. You've become so ridiculous, I'm almost wondering if you're trolling.
Google it for yourself.
More kids are "coming out" at a younger age, and one of the reasons given for this is that they have "more role models"...
 

River Jordan

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Rather than me Googling, how about you provide a source for your claim that the reason youth are leaving Christianity is because they're gay?

I'll be waiting.... :rolleyes:
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
That sounds like an opinion.

If my government tells me that I must do something that God has forbidden, such as support a sinner in his sin, then I cannot comply, because God has said that I may not support a sinner in his sin.

It really is that simple.
A statement of my perspective.

What are you being told to DO by your government that God tell you not to?
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
So, you think that your attitude toward other people's kids is okay with God? I wonder...

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

My kids will be ready.


For the time being, we are worshiping with a couple of other families in a "home church".
And I already know about the Archbishop's concern. But thank you for posting it anyway.


Nobody here is "vilifying gays."
You're deflecting Barrd. A sign of a desperate person.

What does the tribulation have to do with this issue?

Your kids will be ready for what, the tribulation? FYI believers won't go through that.

Well if you know, why make it an issue here as it there is no hope? That's a tad disingenuous.

Go back and read all the posts, you'll find quite a few.
 

StanJ

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Gay marriage is forbidden.
and yet not one of your quoted scriptures, confirms that. The ACT of homosexuality is forbidden. I don't see anywhere that 2 of them marrying is. Do you think it makes ANY difference to God if two who are committed to the lifestyle marry or not? Please, let's get real here. You read a lot INTO scripture, that is not there.
 

Barrd

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River Jordan said:
Rather than me Googling, how about you provide a source for your claim that the reason youth are leaving Christianity is because they're gay?

I'll be waiting.... :rolleyes:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&q=are+there+more+gay+teens+today+than+20+years+ago%3F&oq=are+there+more+gay+teens+today+than+20+years+ago%3F&gs_l=serp.12...30282.48996.0.51739.54.39.0.0.0.0.1730.5055.6-2j0j2.4.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..54.0.0.0.CKogKg5Jn2A

There are several sites there that talk about why there are so many more gay teens "coming out" than there were 20 years ago.
Whether you like it or not, it has become a fad. I have seven kids and more grandkids and great grandkids, including a few extras that my own bunch drags home, and many of the children of women who lived with me during their difficult pregnancies (I have been a volunteer in abortion alternative centers for over 30 years, and I have brought several of these young women home with me.)
Now, I don't care whether you believe me or not, but I have actually had young atheists tell me (including two of my kid brother's friends) that the reason they left their parents' religion is because God does not accept them because they are gay. My daughter who lives in Houston could tell you more about this than I can...she works with gay teenagers who actually tried to commit suicide. It is amazing how many of them are "cutters".

Honestly, Christians do need to know what is going on in the world around them...
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
A statement of my perspective.

What are you being told to DO by your government that God tell you not to?
Christian business owners are being told that, if they wish to stay in business, they must violate their faith.

God has declared that homosexuality is a sin. An abomination....a disgusting, vile sin.

Those who provide wedding cakes for gay weddings are aiding and supporting this sin, something Christians may not do.

I'm not seeing how you don't get that.

You do know that unrepentant sinners go to hell, right? And if we do not sound a warning, their blood is on our hands, you know that, too, right?
These are not just "church words". They apply to your every day life....including your business life.

If your faith does not affect the way you live your life...then what good is it?
 
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