Anti- Christian Crusade.

[Barrd]

You're deflecting Barrd. A sign of a desperate person.

What does the tribulation have to do with this issue?

Your kids will be ready for what, the tribulation? FYI believers won't go through that.

Well if you know, why make it an issue here as it there is no hope? That's a tad disingenuous.

Go back and read all the posts, you'll find quite a few.

Deflecting? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
What I say is that ALL children are important to God, and therefore ALL children are important to His followers.
Sure, I'm responsible for my own kids first....but if I know a child is in need, and I do not reach out to that child, do you think God is fine with that?
Odd. That's not the impression He gave me.

Tribulation? I think you are the one who brought it up.
I quoted Revelation where it tells us that it is given unto the beast....that's the world....to make war with the saints....that's Christians.....and overcome us.
Now, that is going to happen. I do not know when, and neither does anyone else....but that it is going to happen is a sure thing.
And it is starting already.
Of course, the world has always been at war with Christianity, but it has been escalating in recent decades, and it doesn't look as if it's going to cool down any time soon.
There is a very good possibility that the church may be driven underground, if she is not wiped out altogether. (Of course, God will always have a remnant.)
When that happens, will our kids be ready for it?

Let me guess....you think there is going to be a "rapture"?
I wouldn't be so sure of that, my friend. If God is going to snatch the church out of danger, He'd better get to it. Or don't you know that the church is suffering? People are being imprisoned, tortured, and even killed for their faith, even as we speak.
Or is He waiting until it threatens you and your family? Because, obviously, if it isn't happening in your backyard, it doesn't really count. Right?


And again, I say...no one is "vilifying gays".
Calling a sin for what it is is not "vilifying".
Unless you think that telling a thief that he needs to stop stealing, or an adulterer that he needs to go home to his wife, and quit playing with cheap sex "on the side" is "vilifying" them.
Perhaps our own government is "vilifying" killers, when they arrest them and throw them into prison...


Will the Lord find faith on earth when He returns?

 

[mjrhealth]

God has declared that homosexuality is a sin. An abomination....a disgusting, vile sin.

Those who provide wedding cakes for gay weddings are aiding and supporting this sin, something Christians may not do.

Is it any worse than your sin??? Is the price not the same??

 

[Born_Again]

Deflecting? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
What I say is that ALL children are important to God, and therefore ALL children are important to His followers.
Sure, I'm responsible for my own kids first....but if I know a child is in need, and I do not reach out to that child, do you think God is fine with that?
Odd. That's not the impression He gave me.

Tribulation? I think you are the one who brought it up.
I quoted Revelation where it tells us that it is given unto the beast....that's the world....to make war with the saints....that's Christians.....and overcome us.
Now, that is going to happen. I do not know when, and neither does anyone else....but that it is going to happen is a sure thing.
And it is starting already.
Of course, the world has always been at war with Christianity, but it has been escalating in recent decades, and it doesn't look as if it's going to cool down any time soon.
There is a very good possibility that the church may be driven underground, if she is not wiped out altogether. (Of course, God will always have a remnant.)
When that happens, will our kids be ready for it?

Let me guess....you think there is going to be a "rapture"?
I wouldn't be so sure of that, my friend. If God is going to snatch the church out of danger, He'd better get to it. Or don't you know that the church is suffering? People are being imprisoned, tortured, and even killed for their faith, even as we speak.
Or is He waiting until it threatens you and your family? Because, obviously, if it isn't happening in your backyard, it doesn't really count. Right?


And again, I say...no one is "vilifying gays".
Calling a sin for what it is is not "vilifying".
Unless you think that telling a thief that he needs to stop stealing, or an adulterer that he needs to go home to his wife, and quit playing with cheap sex "on the side" is "vilifying" them.
Perhaps our own government is "vilifying" killers, when they arrest them and throw them into prison...


Will the Lord find faith on earth when He returns?

Um, please elaborate on the section I highlighted....

 

[mjrhealth]

Wow, that's really cute, and it misses a lot of the meat in the Bible.

Which part,

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Or this bit

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

or this

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice it never says you will stop sinning, what it says is that those who walk after the Spirit will not be condemned.

Pray tell me how are you going to stop sinning, pluck your eyes out, cut off your hands, beat yourself with a whip, walk around in sackcloth. lock yourself in a dark room, or the only possible way, remove your brain.

God made allowances for us being human and walking in a sinfull flesh, christians think somehow they can perfect there flesh. It wont happen any time soon.

And no it does not give excuses for willfull sin as so many legalists proclaim,its an allowance for imperfection.

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

and yet not one of your quoted scriptures, confirms that. The ACT of homosexuality is forbidden. I don't see anywhere that 2 of them marrying is. Do you think it makes ANY difference to God if two who are committed to the lifestyle marry or not? Please, let's get real here. You read a lot INTO scripture, that is not there.

Oh, you can't be serious, here.
You want us to believe that two gay people are going to get married, and they aren't going to have sex?
And River called me naive...

Yes, I think it makes a HUGE difference to God whether they are "committed to the lifestyle or not."


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Paul seemed to think so, too.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

and yet not one of your quoted scriptures, confirms that. The ACT of homosexuality is forbidden. I don't see anywhere that 2 of them marrying is. Do you think it makes ANY difference to God if two who are committed to the lifestyle marry or not? Please, let's get real here. You read a lot INTO scripture, that is not there.

Oh really? Homosexuality is a sin - Leviticus

So just because Jesus affirms that marriage is between a man and a woman - as they were created - you have the audacity to claim homosexual marriage - an institution created by God - isn't forbidden?

Oh really?

I am just floored at how dense your criticism of the Bible regarding this sinful act is.

 

[Barrd]

Um, please elaborate on the section I highlighted....

Not to change the subject, but have you ever heard of a group called D C Talk?

They have a book out...actually, a couple of books, called "JESUS FREAKS". Ever heard of it?

It is like a modern day "Fox's Martyrs". It speaks of people who have been imprisoned, and tortured, and killed, for their faith in Christ.

And there are more every single day. Men and women and even children, suffering and dying for the Word of God. For them, the tribulation is here, and now. Women burying their babies, husbands mourning for their wives and children, people being tortured in unspeakable pain...and yet, God has not moved to stop this.

Of course, it hasn't happened here in the west yet. We're still "safe"....well, sort of. It's here, don't you doubt it. It just isn't "official" yet. Perhaps God is waiting until someone threatens YOU. Could that be it? And then, before He allows YOU AND YOUR family to suffer, He will snatch the church out of danger. Because, obviously, God cares more about YOU AND YOUR FAMILY than He does about His sheep in the Middle East, or in Africa, right?

 

[Born_Again]

Not to change the subject, but have you ever heard of a group called D C Talk?

They have a book out...actually, a couple of books, called "JESUS FREAKS". Ever heard of it?

It is like a modern day "Fox's Martyrs". It speaks of people who have been imprisoned, and tortured, and killed, for their faith in Christ.

And there are more every single day. Men and women and even children, suffering and dying for the Word of God. For them, the tribulation is here, and now. Women burying their babies, husbands mourning for their wives and children, people being tortured in unspeakable pain...and yet, God has not moved to stop this.

Of course, it hasn't happened here in the west yet. We're still "safe"....well, sort of. It's here, don't you doubt it. It just isn't "official" yet. Perhaps God is waiting until someone threatens YOU. Could that be it? And then, before He allows YOU AND YOUR family to suffer, He will snatch the church out of danger. Because, obviously, God cares more about YOU AND YOUR FAMILY than He does about His sheep in the Middle East, or in Africa, right?

No, I get that.. I do own a television. I wasn't specific enough, I guess. What is your take on the "rapture"?

 

[Barrd]

No, I get that.. I do own a television. I wasn't specific enough, I guess. What is your take on the "rapture"?

Well, as I am saying, if God really were going to snatch the church out of danger, He's running a little late...at least for all of the people who have died for their faith today.

Have you ever heard of a lady named Ellen G. White? The rapture was her idea. Did you know that? It was not taught before she came up with it in the early 1900s.

Frankly, I don't think anyone is getting snatched anywhere till the last day. Of course, I could be wrong....it's been known to happen, once or twice...

 

[Barrd]

Differences of opinion on doctrine aside....

It is difficult for me to believe that there are actually those who call themselves "Christians" who would argue that we ought to embrace homosexual marriage, simply because some man-made government says that we should.

God has forbidden it.
Now, either you obey God, or you do not, that is up to you.

However, Christians are those who hear the Lord's voice, and follow Him...they will not hear the voice of a stranger...even if that stranger is the U.S. Supreme Court.

So....are you a sheep?
Or are you a goat.

 

[mjrhealth]

It is difficult for me to believe that there are actually those who call themselves "Christians" who would argue that we ought to embrace homosexual marriage, simply because some man-made government says that we should.

Marriage what is marriage, can a homosexual even be married, certainly not in Gods eyes, because marriage requires a man and a women, why do you think some religions require the couple to show the stains of blood on a sheet, to confrim, it requires the man to plant his seed into the women, it cannot happen between a man and a man or a women and a women. So what if the courts allow it, it is the world and has nothing to do with God, all they want is the right to get there partners goods if one shoudld die. What has that to do with God. As Jesus said, render unto ceaser what is ceasers. Christians are not supposed to play politics, they are suppoded to pray.

I would still liek to know if there sin is any worse than any of yours???

In all His Love

 

[StanJ]

That sounds like an opinion.

If my government tells me that I must do something that God has forbidden, such as support a sinner in his sin, then I cannot comply, because God has said that I may not support a sinner in his sin.

It really is that simple.

and that is NOT happening, hence the apples and oranges analogy. YOUR government is not telling you to accept or approve gays marriage, they're telling you it is LEGAL now and that you cannot discriminate in THAT regard. How is it you cannot see this very clear issue, as you say, it is very simple.

 

[Barrd]

and that is NOT happening, hence the apples and oranges analogy. YOUR government is not telling you to accept or approve gays marriage, they're telling you it is LEGAL now and that you cannot discriminate in THAT regard. How is it you cannot see this very clear issue, as you say, it is very simple.

It depends on what you mean by "discriminate".

Suppose I own a Christian bakery.
A customer comes in and asks for a dozen cupcakes for a chlldren's sleep-over party. I know that she is a lesbian, but that has nothing to do with the children's sleepover, does it?
So there is no reason I should deny her request, is there?
Now, if she had asked for a wedding cake for a gay wedding, I would have to refuse, because now she wants me to directly involve myself in supporting her sin. Do you see the difference?

Or maybe I own a Christian print shop.
A man comes in and asks me to print up a few hundred business cards for his interior decorating business. I know he is gay, but his request has nothing to do with his sexual preferences, only his business. So there is no reason why I should not accommodate him.
However, if he were to ask me to provide wedding invitations for his gay wedding anniversary party, again, I would have to refuse.

I am a florist. A lady comes in, wanting a pretty centerpiece for her Thanksgiving table. She has invited her family and friends to have Thanksgiving dinner at her house. I know that she is a lesbian, but her request has nothing to do with her sexual preference. So I have no problem doing an arrangement for her.
However, if she were to ask for flowers for a gay wedding....well, perhaps you are beginning to see what I'm talking about.

It isn't about not serving gays at all, Stan, nobody has said that. It is about not participating in the sin.

 

[Born_Again]

It depends on what you mean by "discriminate".

Suppose I own a Christian bakery.
A customer comes in and asks for a dozen cupcakes for a chlldren's sleep-over party. I know that she is a lesbian, but that has nothing to do with the children's sleepover, does it?
So there is no reason I should deny her request, is there?
Now, if she had asked for a wedding cake for a gay wedding, I would have to refuse, because now she wants me to directly involve myself in supporting her sin. Do you see the difference?

Or maybe I own a Christian print shop.
A man comes in and asks me to print up a few hundred business cards for his interior decorating business. I know he is gay, but his request has nothing to do with his sexual preferences, only his business. So there is no reason why I should not accommodate him.
However, if he were to ask me to provide wedding invitations for his gay wedding anniversary party, again, I would have to refuse.

I am a florist. A lady comes in, wanting a pretty centerpiece for her Thanksgiving table. She has invited her family and friends to have Thanksgiving dinner at her house. I know that she is a lesbian, but her request has nothing to do with her sexual preference. So I have no problem doing an arrangement for her.
However, if she were to ask for flowers for a gay wedding....well, perhaps you are beginning to see what I'm talking about.

It isn't about not serving gays at all, Stan, nobody has said that. It is about not participating in the sin.

But now you have just perpetuated the reasons so many people see Christians as haters. Regardless of the intended message he was trying to send, it is immediately taken as an attack on the so called "gay community".... the term its self is ridiculous... but on topic, So say your business offers free prayers.. An openly gay person comes up to you and asks for you to pray for them.. Would you deny them that? Obviously you wouldn't pray for them to have a successful gay marriage or anything like that but would you not pray for them? Or... back to the bakery... why not use your business as an opportunity to witness to them... Even if they chose not to receive the message and took the cake anyways... Maybe the prayer thing was a bad example.. but still... How is he showing the love of Christ by refusing to serve them because of their lifestyle?

 

[Barrd]

But now you have just perpetuated the reasons so many people see Christians as haters. Regardless of the intended message he was trying to send, it is immediately taken as an attack on the so called "gay community".... the term its self is ridiculous... but on topic,

That's the whole problem, though, isn't it?
Christians say "Look, I cannot violate my faith by participating in what my God has forbidden. However, there is a baker down the street who will do a great job for you at a good price."
And the "gay community"....which, as you say, is a ridiculous term, immediately screams "DISCRIMINATION!"
And the fight is on...

So say your business offers free prayers.. An openly gay person comes up to you and asks for you to pray for them.. Would you deny them that? Obviously you wouldn't pray for them to have a successful gay marriage or anything like that but would you not pray for them?

Well, of course, I would pray for them! Why wouldn't I?
No, I wouldn't pray for them to have a successful gay marriage, or anything like that.
Did you miss where I told Stan about my gay nephew? Actually, he is my husband's nephew....i kind of inherited him after my husband died. We did a lot of praying together...

Or... back to the bakery... why not use your business as an opportunity to witness to them... Even if they chose not to receive the message and took the cake anyways... Maybe the prayer thing was a bad example.. but still... How is he showing the love of Christ by refusing to serve them because of their lifestyle?

So I should send them merrily on their way to hell with a cake and a smile?
Uh....no.

How was John the Baptist showing the love of Christ to Herod and his brother's wife, Herodias?

How was Jesus showing the love of Christ to the Pharisees, or to the moneychangers in the Temple?

Is it love to help someone continue to sin and end up in hell? I do not think so.
If I know you are driving toward a cliff and the bridge is out, would it be loving to just let you drive on, or would you rather I should flag you down and tell you before you drive over the edge and are killed? You might be annoyed with me for interrupting your drive, but you will be alive.
Now, if I do not sound the warning for the gay couple, and they go to hell, am I culpable?
Yes, I am. Their blood is on my hands, because I knew they were headed for cliff, but I just let them drive on. And now, to continue what is probably not a great analogy, my government thinks I ought to provide gas for the vehicle.
This I cannot do.

 

[mjrhealth]

Now, if I do not sound the warning for the gay couple, and they go to hell, am I culpable?

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Sometimes we need to look at ourselves before we look at others, dont we...

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I would still liek to know if there sin is any worse than any of yours???

Marriage as an institution is ordained by God, so no, two men can't get married.

Sin is sin and while he does not present any detail, John said in his first letter that there is sin that does not lead to death.

Now according to Paul in Romans, the sin of homosexuality reflects an anti-God attitude, so it most probably leads to death.

Now between sins of yours, mine, and theirs - do you advocate your sin? Do you ask others to accept it as normal? Do you want full rights despite your sin, of say, theft, so you're not deprived of all the benefits people who don't steal have while you continue to steal?

Do you "push" your sin? Do you have marches for your sin? Do you demand that people who indulge in your pet sin are portrayed nicely, and sympathetically on TV?

Another difference, and this is important.

When you sin, do you ask forgiveness as John tells us to do in his first letter? Or do you openly practice your sin without remorse?

While we must each attend to our failings, we also cannot fail to see the difference between a Christian sinner, and the sinner who takes pride in their sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

Now according to Paul in Romans, the sin of homosexuality reflects an anti-God attitude, so it most probably leads to death.

Actually all sin has teh same consequence, all sin, everyone leads to death, the only sin that cant be forgiven is "blasphemy of teh Holy Spirit", but its nice to make other sins worse than yours, must make you feel better. But you see as corruption grows teh world gets worse, but still christians try fit them all into one mould, they just wanted to live but the world and christianity, oh I did mention teh world got in the way, and instead of helping started driving them all away. We are supposed to show love, but as you can see from posts here its al about the perfect christian and the rest. Guess who Jesus spent all His time with, and why did they listen, because He loved them, somethng christans seem to be unable to do, always throwing stones at the lesss fortunate. So nice to be born perfect. isnt it.

You see every time we call someone a sinner, dont forgive, get angry etc etc we open a door for the devil, we can actually stop people from entering in, because we are the one who make the accustaions. we agree wtih the devil, whos side are you on.

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

No it doesn't. But I'm not going into that here.. Which is why I didn't elaborate on that.

So, those Christian business owners were just imagining that they were being sued.

Gladly accept any challenge.

Yes, I can see that you are very eager to rise to the challenge.
Very commendable.
Except, nobody is challenging you.


I notice you did not wish to comment on my post concerning my nephew.
I'm not surprised.

did you seriously just say that?

Yes, I did. Do you know the answer?
I do.

You miss the point...

Enlighten me, please.

in true fashion.. apples and oranges

Don't tell me that you've never heard of an analogy.

analogy



[uh-nal-uh-jee]

• Synonyms
• Word Origin

noun, plural analogies.
1.
a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based:
the analogy between the heart and a pump.


2.
similarity or comparability:
I see no analogy between your problem and mine.


3.
Biology. an analogous relationship.

4.
Linguistics.

1. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
2. a form resulting from such a process.

5.
Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy

Then go wear a sign on the streets of San Francisco and let me know how that works out for you.

Now why didn't I think of that?

Have you ever heard the term "You can lead a horse to water but you can make it drink"?

Yeah, I've heard that one.
It does explain a lot.

I also said the business owner could use the opportunity to witness to them. If they choose not to listen then that is on them. But to say, "No cake for you, sinner" C'mon!

Yes, you did.
Tell me, how is supporting them in their sin "witnessing to them"?
You honestly do not see the contradiction there?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Actually all sin has teh same consequence, all sin, everyone leads to death, the only sin that cant be forgiven is "blasphemy of teh Holy Spirit", but its nice to make other sins worse than yours, must make you feel better. So nice to be born perfect. isnt?

Wow, I'm feeling the love you sign off with when I read I feel better because I don't do sex in all the wrong places! And born perfect? Why, you flatter me...

Actually you're just trying to be insulting, but maybe that's how you show love to a fellow Christian...

But on this issue of sin, let's hear your learned opinion because John, an Disciple to Jesus, an Apostle to Christ, called by the Lord as the one He loved, said this:

1Jo 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

So between John and you, I guess somebody's wrong and I'm betting we never see either an apology for your insults nor a retraction of your statement.