Anti- Christian Crusade.

[Barrd]

So, if Butch and Jake come in and just want a generic wedding cake, I have to bake it for them.
But what if they want their names on the cake?
Wasn't there a pair of lesbians that wanted their names piped on their cake?

You do know that in Muslim countries, gays are still killed?

 

[River Jordan]

Are you talking to yourself now? :wacko:

 

[Barrd]

Interesting phrasing. I can do that too...

Gays should not expect to be able to go into public places of business and be treated like any other citizen,

Gays are not "like any other citizen". They are practicing a sexual PERVERSION. And they want Christians to not only endorse it, but to participate in it, against God's law.

because this country is a Christian theocracy,

It doesn't matter what our government says, we must answer first to God. We do live in a Christian Theocracy, because to a Christian, God is Supreme, not some man-made court.

and Christianity teaches that being gay is a special sin, unlike any other.

No, but it is a sin, and therefore Christians may not endorse it or participate in it.

Because of that, a key tenet of Christianity is to treat gays like second class citizens,

No, a key tenet of Christianity is, as I said, that we must feed them if they are hungry, clothe them if they are naked, visit them if they are sick or in prison...in short, we are to love them.

and because the US is a Christian theocracy, gays must learn to accept their second-class status.

They must be told that their lifestyle is obscene, unnatural, and against the law of God.

Is that basically what you're saying here?

Do you understand what I actually am saying here?

 

[Barrd]

Are you talking to yourself now? :wacko:

Anyone who will listen....

And at least one person who will not.

 

[StanJ]

How nice of you.
Did you know that there is also a homosexual movement in the Pentecostal church?
Don't think so?
It's everywhere, my friend. Yes, even in your church.
Now what?

There's a gay Apostolic church and is NOT part of the AOG or any other mainline Pentecostal denominations, UNLIKE the mainline Episcopal denomination. They are also not accepted by the mainline Apostolic churches either. I'm pretty sure you KNOW the difference. The reason there are these off shoots is because the main denominations would NOT allow them to practice without repenting of their overt homosexuality, just like they wouldn't allow others to practice any other sin outright.
I find many of your counters are very equivocal, disingenuous, and NOT in keeping with the spirit in this forum.

 

[River Jordan]

Gays are not "like any other citizen". They are practicing a sexual PERVERSION.

So one's legal status as a citizen is based on what sort of sin they're guilty of?

It doesn't matter what our government says, we must answer first to God. We do live in a Christian Theocracy, because to a Christian, God is Supreme, not some man-made court.

And therefore Christians are exempt from the law?

No, but it is a sin, and therefore Christians may not endorse it or participate in it.

While endorsing and participating in lots of other sins.

No, a key tenet of Christianity is, as I said, that we must feed them if they are hungry, clothe them if they are naked, visit them if they are sick or in prison...in short, we are to love them.

And under Christianity, "love" = "treat them like second class citizens".

They must be told that their lifestyle is obscene, unnatural, and against the law of God.

Like all the time, every hour, every day. And it's the only sin that gets such treatment.

Do you understand what I actually am saying here?

Yes I do.

 

[StanJ]

Rights of democracy?
Suppose we start according the "rights of democracy" to all sinners? Would that be a good idea, do you think?

Most sinners DO have the rights accorded citizens in their respective countries. Only gays are singled out in North America, and mostly in the U.S.
They are singled out by mostly NON believers, but many conservative believers, who cannot separate their political ideologue from their personal faith, jump on that band wagon.

 

[Barrd]

There's a gay Apostolic church and is NOT part of the AOG or any other mainline Pentecostal denominations, UNLIKE the mainline Episcopal denomination. They are also not accepted by the mainline Apostolic churches either. I'm pretty sure you KNOW the difference. The reason there are these off shoots is because the main denominations would NOT allow them to practice without repenting of their overt homosexuality, just like they wouldn't allow others to practice any other sin outright.
I find many of your counters are very equivocal, disingenuous, and NOT in keeping with the spirit in this forum.

So, you would not tolerate them in your church.
That's kind of what I thought.
Thank you for clarifying that for me.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, I do not, as a general rule, go around condemning gays, or anyone else, for that matter.
However, in this thread, I got drawn into such a debate with someone who seems to think that for Christians to cry out against the recent trend toward homosexuality is a bad thing.
I disagree. I do not want my children or grandchildren being taught that homosexuality is natural and normal, or that it is perfectly fine for a kid to grow up with two dads or two moms.
Homosexuality is a PERVERSION of the natural sex drive, just like any other PERVERSION. I do not know why our society is suddenly not only accepting, but encouraging it, and I do not know why there suddenly seem to be so many homosexuals "coming out"...but I do know that it is an abomination in the eyes of God.
I can't think of one other sexual perversion that Christians would advocate "tolerance" for. Would you want your kids to be taught that prostitution was normal, and that they should tolerate hookers? What about rapists? No? Okay, what about "furries"...you know...the kind of people who give a new meaning to the term "animal lover"? All of these perversions happen in the United States, don't they? Why should we not also embrace them? Shouldn't they, also, have the same democratic rights as everyone else? Why would we arrest someone for having sex with her dog? What about NAMBLA? Evidently, the men and boys involved in these relationships are loving, happy couples...why do we interfere with them? Why don't we give them the same democratic rights as gays? There are exceptions made for young girls who want to marry older men, even for underage girls, aren't there? Why not for young boys?

Then by that same general rule, you should not do so on public forums. Christians should live one way and preach one message.
Nobody that I've read on here, is supporting gay lifestyles, just the same right for gays as ALL citizens, and citizenship does NOT include believing in Christ. Not sure why you can't see the difference between the sin and the sinner with gays, but seem to have no problem doing so with all other sinners such as liars, fornicators, thieves, lovers of money, hypocrites, drunkards, etc...etc...?
There are MANY types of perversions Barrd. Where do you draw the line?
I taught my kids thank you, just as the Bible tells us to. I NEVER allowed academics to teach my kids their morality or what God says is the way we should live. If ANY parent does that, then they reap the results of not fulfilling their responsibilities before God.
Seems everything you bring up are ridiculous exceptions, which should be dealt with on a case by case basis, and not govern how we treat our neighbours.

 

[StanJ]

So, you would not tolerate them in your church.
That's kind of what I thought.
Thank you for clarifying that for me.

I've made that clear from the beginning Barrd, just as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 5. You're telling me you just get that?

 

[StanJ]

So, let me get this straight.
Christians should not practice their faith in their places of business, because man's government says we should not.

The government says we should NOT discriminate BASED on our beliefs, and many business still do, despite the laws.
They discriminate in hiring women because women get pregnant. That is against the law. They discriminate by hiring young, because old people won't work as long and have more health problem. That is against the law. I ran businesses for years, and never discriminated against my staff for not believing, yet still exercised by Christian perspective within my sphere of influence.
Did you know that there in not one stat holidays in North America that is of Jewish origin, yet many employers allow them to take their Holy days off. Many also allow other people of other faiths to take their Holy days off. By your words, I assume YOU would not.

 

[Barrd]

So one's legal status as a citizen is based on what sort of sin they're guilty of?

I didn't say they were not citizens. I said that they were not like any other citizens. Just like pedophiles are not like any other citizens, or those guys from NAMBLA are not like any other citizens, or folks who have sex with animals, or with corpses, are not like any other citizens.
I keep saying this, but somehow you don't seem to get what I am saying.
Homosexuality is unnatural. It is a PERVERSION of the natural sex drive.

Didn't you take biology in high school? Gosh, even back in the 60's we had that much "sex education".

And therefore Christians are exempt from the law?

No. But we are subject to a higher law, and we must obey God FIRST.

While endorsing and participating in lots of other sins.

Somehow you seem to think that because some Christians are indulging "lots of other sins" that makes it okay.
Didn't your parents ever teach you that "two wrongs do not make a right"?
Hun, the same is true of many wrongs.
You don't like the sins of greed, or gluttony? Good for you! Do not participate in them, or encourage them, and when you see others doing so, perhaps you should also remind them that these things are sins. If someone comes into your place of business and asks you to cater a party that celebrates these or other sins, turn them away. I will back you up 100%!
Live your faith, River!
And allow other Christians to do the same.

And under Christianity, "love" = "treat them like second class citizens".

Maybe you missed it the first dozen or so times I've said it, so, patiently, and with all the love in my heart, I will say it again.
We are to love them. Love them as Christ loves them. Feed them if they are hungry. Clothe them if they are naked. Visit them if they are sick or in prison. Give to them if they ask us, asking nothing in return.
And, River...preach the gospel to them, and help them to find salvation.

Like all the time, every hour, every day. And it's the only sin that gets such treatment.

Are you kidding? I do not have the energy to devote to mistreating someone 24-7.
I can only manage an hour or so at a time.
For 24 hour vilification, homosexuals will have to see someone like ol' Freddy Phelps, or someone like that.

Gotta make time for those fatties at the buffet, and those greedy televangelists with their fancy cars and their mountain retreats, you know....

Yes I do.

It doesn't seem so.

 

[StanJ]

No. But we are subject to a higher law, and we must obey God FIRST.

So by not submitting to authority as Paul teaches in Rom 13:1, you disobey both? How is that working out for you?

 

[River Jordan]

Well Barrd, I think we've run this into the ground and are generally talking past each other. I really don't have anything else to say on this that I haven't already said. I'll just reiterate that because of our ridiculous hypocrisy, Christianity is getting its butt kicked in the court of public opinion, and it's entirely unnecessary....and it's driving people away from the Gospel. That's unacceptable to me.

Just like it's possible to believe that gluttony is a sin, but not go around demonizing the obese and comparing them to some of the worst people on the planet, it's possible to do the same with homosexuality. It saddens me that you don't see this.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Gays should not expect to be able to go into public places of business and be treated like any other citizen, because this country is a Christian theocracy, and Christianity teaches that being gay is a special sin, unlike any other. Because of that, a key tenet of Christianity is to treat gays like second class citizens, and because the US is a Christian theocracy, gays must learn to accept their second-class status.

No, she's not saying that you are. You brought up the straw man "Christian theocracy" idea just like you brought up the insulting "hateful jerk" moniker to label your debate opponent.

You also erroneously tilt the argument to excoriating Christians again because somehow they treat homosexuals (they're not "gay", they're confused) like second class citizens. Again, that is something of your own making. I do not accept your flawed premise, but you will not retract the insult.

And finally you start with your original false premise of a "Christian theocracy" and now paint the poor, little, picked-on homosexuals as having to accept their "second-class" status. There is no evidence that any of the radical homosexuals promoting their evil agenda are in any way backing down. Indeed, they parade their sin like Sodom and do so loudly and proudly.

And about "Pride", God takes a rather dim view of man's pride, and while many rally around the 'Power of Pride' in patriotism, the true power of pride is that it sets one up to being humbled, if not totally eliminated with the tares of this world.

 

[Barrd]

Then by that same general rule, you should not do so on public forums. Christians should live one way and preach one message.
Nobody that I've read on here, is supporting gay lifestyles, just the same right for gays as ALL citizens, and citizenship does NOT include believing in Christ. Not sure why you can't see the difference between the sin and the sinner with gays, but seem to have no problem doing so with all other sinners such as liars, fornicators, thieves, lovers of money, hypocrites, drunkards, etc...etc...?
There are MANY types of perversions Barrd. Where do you draw the line?
I taught my kids thank you, just as the Bible tells us to. I NEVER allowed academics to teach my kids their morality or what God says is the way we should live. If ANY parent does that, then they reap the results of not fulfilling their responsibilities before God.
Seems everything you bring up are ridiculous exceptions, which should be dealt with on a case by case basis, and not govern how we treat our neighbours.

First of all, this is not a "public forum". it is specifically a CHRISTIAN forum. Huge difference.
As an American citizen, and putting my Christianity aside for a moment, I do not believe that ANY sexual perversion ought to be legalized. If people want to be perverted in their private lives, as long as they are not hurting anyone, it is none of my or anyone else's business. But when they want to drag it out into the public, it is a different story. I do not care how many wives some guy wants to support, for instance....more power to him and his harem. Until he tries to include little 12 year old girls in his collection. I don't care who is doing what to whom, or what parts of their bodies they are using, as long as they keep it in their bedrooms, and as long as they are both...all?...consenting adults. None of my business. Until they want to parade it down the main street of my town.

Now, as a Christian, I will say again....and maybe you will hear me this time. As with "all other sinners such as liars, fornicators, thieves, lovers of money, hypocrites, drunkards, etc...etc...", we are to love homosexuals as Christ loved them.
If they are hungry, we are to feed them.
If they are naked, we are to clothe them.
If they are sick or in prison, we are to visit them.
We are to give to them if they ask us, good measure, pressed down and shaken together, and not sparing....and ask for nothing in return.
And we must preach to them the gospel.

I find it quite hypocritical of you to think that it's okay for OTHER people's kids to be taught that "gay is okay"....as long is it is not YOUR kids.
Silly man....do you not know that those other kids outnumber yours by a great majority? What do you think the world will be like when your grandkids are grown?
Days are coming when our progeny will be worshiping in a dark basement....if they dare to worship at all. Mine will be ready for that dark day. Will yours?
Or did you not know that "it is given unto the beast to make war with the saints AND OVERCOME THEM?"

I don't think you realize how hurtful it is that I cannot worship in the church I grew up in because of this...but hey, it's all good, because it hasn't invaded YOUR church yet....although it is on it's way, you can bet on that.

And everything I have brought up is happening, right here, in the United States. What gives you the right to endorse one perversion, but not the others? What, there are more gays than "animal lovers", so that makes homosexuality right, while bestiality is wrong? It is a case of sheer numbers, then? If that is the case, then I may as well close up my Bible and stay at home....there are far more sinners than Christians in the world, so I am defeated before I begin....

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I'll just reiterate that because of our ridiculous hypocrisy, Christianity is getting its butt kicked in the court of public opinion, and it's entirely unnecessary....and it's driving people away from the Gospel.

So you water down the Bible. That is mixing evil into good. We should never be afraid to call sin a sin. If that drives them away, nothing would entice them to truly follow Jesus and His Commands.

 

[Barrd]

So by not submitting to authority as Paul teaches in Rom 13:1, you disobey both? How is that working out for you?

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Evidently, there are exceptions.
I believe this is one of them.

 

[Barrd]

Well Barrd, I think we've run this into the ground and are generally talking past each other. I really don't have anything else to say on this that I haven't already said. I'll just reiterate that because of our ridiculous hypocrisy, Christianity is getting its butt kicked in the court of public opinion, and it's entirely unnecessary....and it's driving people away from the Gospel. That's unacceptable to me.

And I say again, you worry too much about "public opinion".
Jesus didn't. Nor should we.

I am quite sure that those who have ears to hear will hear the gospel message.
And those who are repelled by our stance against sin are not going to hear it regardless.

You are reckoning without the power of God....

 

[River Jordan]

No, she's not saying that you are. You brought up the straw man "Christian theocracy" idea just like you brought up the insulting "hateful jerk" moniker to label your debate opponent.

You also erroneously tilt the argument to excoriating Christians again because somehow they treat homosexuals (they're not "gay", they're confused) like second class citizens. Again, that is something of your own making. I do not accept your flawed premise, but you will not retract the insult.

And finally you start with your original false premise of a "Christian theocracy" and now paint the poor, little, picked-on homosexuals as having to accept their "second-class" status. There is no evidence that any of the radical homosexuals promoting their evil agenda are in any way backing down. Indeed, they parade their sin like Sodom and do so loudly and proudly.

And about "Pride", God takes a rather dim view of man's pride, and while many rally around the 'Power of Pride' in patriotism, the true power of pride is that it sets one up to being humbled, if not totally eliminated with the tares of this world.

Hey Marcus....hear that sound? It's the point whooshing right over your head.