Another Premillennial absurdity

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Randy Kluth

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What is mysterious about it? Let me ask it again. Paul says that "it isn't as if the word of God has failed." I am asking you, or anyone else what specific promise of God didn't fail?
When a group committed to opposing your position runs into a question they can't answer, they should be respectful about it, rather than attack the other person. You made your question very clear. They can't answer it.

Well, at least one of them made an effort by explaining that the promises were made only to Abraham and to Christ--not Israel. The context forbids that, however.

To this poster, the promise made to Christ somehow spiritualizes "Israel" to mean the Christian Church, and not the physical, literal nation of Israel. This is called "Replacement Theology." And it may have begun with Amillennialism in the Early Church, when Premillennialists gave up on the idea of a full national restoration for Israel.

Fortunately, in our day we're witnesses to the amazing patience that belongs to God. It is beyond anything we could've done or considered. Virtually every Christian in history gave up on Israel. But not God! He has Abraham in front of him all the time in His memory, assuring him that he will have descendants of faith, who will assemble once again into a nation of faith. Anyway, that's how I look at it.
 
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Randy Kluth

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When you continue reading from there, it becomes even more clear.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It's not even possible for Paul to have been more clear that one's ethnicity or nationality has absolutely nothing to do with being a child of God and part of the Israel of God of which not all physical descendants of Israel are part.
That is speaking of who succeeds in being counted as true children of Abraham. To qualify as "true Israel" they must be both part of the group that descended from Abraham and also those who exercise true faith. Otherwise, as even according to the Law, they are cut off as those who do not comply with a contract, or covenant.

This does not speak, however, to God's promise that Abraham's descendants would form into a nation and continue until this plan is complete. That plan is not yet completed, as the passage in Rom 9-11 indicates. Paul argued, therefore, that *God's word" cannot fail!
 

covenantee

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Virtually every Christian in history gave up on Israel.
Genetically, bro, the entirety of humanity is Israel. Abraham's DNA is found in every person on the planet.

So physical DNA is not the criterion which determines whom God identifies as His Israel.

Only spiritual DNA is that criterion.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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How do you know your response is the correct one? I don't think it is. Prove it. Tell me which specific promise of God is the topic of Romans 9? Which promise didn't fail?
Here is the promise made to Abraham that Paul was talking about in Romans 9:6-8 when he referenced "the children of the promise" who are Abraham's offspring (seed):

Romans 4:14 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

The promise made to Abraham is that "he would be heir of the world". Paul indicated that the fulfillment of the promise would come "through the righteousness that comes by faith". Faith like Abraham had. And Paul indicated that the promise "may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham" because "He is the father of us all.".

So, the promise of God that didn't fail was to provide a way for those who have faith like Abraham to inherit the world. And He did that by way of sending His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world so that anyone who believes in Him will, like Abraham, inherit the world (the earth) for eternity.
 

CadyandZoe

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Well by all means keep me waiting, don't bother to tell me what you are hinting at. You might have guessed by now that I don't like playing this game of guess what I'm thinking!
I don't intend for you to guess what I am thinking. I want you to know what I know, but if I tell it to you directly, you will reject it out of hand. The answer to the question is within the first five verses of Romans.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I don't intend for you to guess what I am thinking. I want you to know what I know, but if I tell it to you directly, you will reject it out of hand.
This is ridiculous. How can anyone believe that you don't intend for him to guess what you're thinking when you won't just say it? We are adults here. We don't need to play games like this.

If you make your point and he rejects it, so what? We reject your points all the time. You say the answer is found in the first 5 verses of Romans 9. But, saying that isn't enough since we don't know exactly how you interpret those verses. So, just get to the point already.

In post #784 I indicated what I believe the promise is that Paul was talking about. Do you have any comments on what I said there?
 
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rwb

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I don't intend for you to guess what I am thinking. I want you to know what I know, but if I tell it to you directly, you will reject it out of hand. The answer to the question is within the first five verses of Romans.

If you're afraid I will reject it out of hand, you must not be very confident about your doctrine??? I typically reject what cannot be biblically proven. If you can prove from the Scripture your doctrine is sound, why would you care if I reject if?
 
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rwb

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This is ridiculous. How can anyone believe that you don't intend for him to guess what you're thinking when you won't just say it? We are adults here. We don't need to play games like this.

If you make your point and he rejects it, so what? We reject your points all the time. You say the answer is found in the first 5 verses of Romans 9. But, saying that isn't enough since we don't know exactly how you interpret those verses. So, just get to the point already.

In post #784 I indicated what I believe the promise is that Paul was talking about. Do you have any comments on what I said there?

As I just replied to him, I don't think he has much confidence in his doctrine. Why else would he fear it being rejected out of hand?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Genetically, bro, the entirety of humanity is Israel. Abraham's DNA is found in every person on the planet.

So physical DNA is not the criterion which determines whom God identifies as His Israel.

Only spiritual DNA is that criterion.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.
Yes, indeed. I mean, is the following not clear that physical DNA has absolutely nothing to do with being part of the Israel of God and being a child of God and Abraham's offspring? I believe it is.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul spoke very straightforwardly here. How many ways can the statement that "it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children" be understood? Paul very explicitly said that it has nothing to do with anything physical, yet dispenationalists say it has everything to do with physical things. They are just completely ignoring what Paul taught. The only way someone can miss what he was saying here is by being blinded by doctrinal bias.
 
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CadyandZoe

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So? Of course there was a distinction in a physical way, but Paul's focus in Romans 9-11 is spiritual.
If you look carefully, you will see that it is both spiritual AND physical. Think about it. In chapter 9 Paul contrasts Ishmael and Isaac, both direct descendants of Abraham. He also contrasts Jacob and Esau, bot direct descendants of Isaac. The focus of Romans 9-11 are the direct descendants of Jacob.
You're just not getting it. Paul was talking about making some of His fellow Israelites who had been hardened and blinded IN HIS DAY jealous because of the salvation of the Gentiles so that they too would want to be saved. And some of them were. This process of Gentile salvation making Israelites jealous and wanting to be saved as well has been going on for a long time now.
You are not getting it. Paul's mention of Jealousy comes from Deuteronomy 32:21, which is a passage predicting a future event from Paul's point of view. Paul isn't suggesting that conversion of Jews follows jealousy of Jews as a normal course. The Jews won't be jealous until they wake up -- until God wakes them up.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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As I just replied to him, I don't think he has much confidence in his doctrine. Why else would he fear it being rejected out of hand?
I couldn't agree more. There's no reason to be so hesitant to share a doctrine if you feel confident that it's true. I'm not sure why he clings so tightly to a doctrine that he apparently has no confidence in.
 

CadyandZoe

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This is nonsense of the highest order. You are blatantly twisting scripture to fit your doctrine and it's shameful and unacceptable. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that Paul changed the subject in verse 25, regardless of whether or not a comma should be there. None. I just can't take you seriously when you repeatedly twist scripture like this.
Every time you go this route I simply hear you say, "well, I don't have a good response to what he is saying, so I will blow smoke in his face."
as Paul amending and changing the Old Testament when he indicated that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Abraham and to Christ and extended to those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16-29)? This is not clear in the Old Testament at all and, yet, this is what Paul taught. It seems that the way you look at things, you would have to conclude that Paul was amending or changing the Old Testament by doing that.
Clarifying the OT is not changing it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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If you look carefully, you will see that it is both spiritual AND physical. Think about it. In chapter 9 Paul contrasts Ishmael and Isaac, both direct descendants of Abraham. He also contrasts Jacob and Esau, bot direct descendants of Isaac. The focus of Romans 9-11 are the direct descendants of Jacob.
I meant that his main focus is spiritual because he's talking about spiritual salvation throughout Romans 9-11.

You are not getting it. Paul's mention of Jealousy comes from Deuteronomy 32:21, which is a passage predicting a future event from Paul's point of view. Paul isn't suggesting that conversion of Jews follows jealousy of Jews as a normal course. The Jews won't be jealous until they wake up -- until God wakes them up.
You are not getting that Paul was speaking in the present tense in Romans 11:11-14. When he said he wanted to provoke some of his fellow Israelites to jealousy, do you think he was talking about Israelites that wouldn't even be alive until at least about 2,000 years later? No, he was talking about his fellow Israelites living at that time that he personally wanted to help save.

As usual, you try to divert attention away from the point by bringing up something unrelated.
 
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CadyandZoe

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When a group committed to opposing your position runs into a question they can't answer, they should be respectful about it, rather than attack the other person. You made your question very clear. They can't answer it.

Well, at least one of them made an effort by explaining that the promises were made only to Abraham and to Christ--not Israel. The context forbids that, however.

To this poster, the promise made to Christ somehow spiritualizes "Israel" to mean the Christian Church, and not the physical, literal nation of Israel. This is called "Replacement Theology." And it may have begun with Amillennialism in the Early Church, when Premillennialists gave up on the idea of a full national restoration for Israel.

Fortunately, in our day we're witnesses to the amazing patience that belongs to God. It is beyond anything we could've done or considered. Virtually every Christian in history gave up on Israel. But not God! He has Abraham in front of him all the time in His memory, assuring him that he will have descendants of faith, who will assemble once again into a nation of faith. Anyway, that's how I look at it.
They are not going to respect me or believe anything that I say as long as they are convinced that I am a heretic. The true test of one's beliefs is the pain one suffers for standing firm. These brothers are doing me a favor. They offer me to practice grace, patience, kindness and endurance.

I pray that the Lord will bless you and your family this weekend and if I don't see you, have a Happy Thanksgiving.
 

CadyandZoe

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Here is the promise made to Abraham that Paul was talking about in Romans 9:6-8 when he referenced "the children of the promise" who are Abraham's offspring (seed):

Romans 4:14 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

The promise made to Abraham is that "he would be heir of the world". Paul indicated that the fulfillment of the promise would come "through the righteousness that comes by faith". Faith like Abraham had. And Paul indicated that the promise "may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham" because "He is the father of us all.".

So, the promise of God that didn't fail was to provide a way for those who have faith like Abraham to inherit the world. And He did that by way of sending His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world so that anyone who believes in Him will, like Abraham, inherit the world (the earth) for eternity.
Nice try, but that isn't the promise Paul had in mind. He spent Eight entire chapters defending the promise you mentioned. Beginning in Romans 9, he changes the subject to speak about another promise God made.
 
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CadyandZoe

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This is ridiculous. How can anyone believe that you don't intend for him to guess what you're thinking when you won't just say it? We are adults here. We don't need to play games like this.
Yes, unfortunately we do.
If you make your point and he rejects it, so what? We reject your points all the time. You say the answer is found in the first 5 verses of Romans 9. But, saying that isn't enough since we don't know exactly how you interpret those verses. So, just get to the point already.
Patience padawan.
In post #784 I indicated what I believe the promise is that Paul was talking about. Do you have any comments on what I said there?
Yes.
 

CadyandZoe

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If you're afraid I will reject it out of hand, you must not be very confident about your doctrine??? I typically reject what cannot be biblically proven. If you can prove from the Scripture your doctrine is sound, why would you care if I reject if?
Of course you reject a doctrine that lacks Biblical proof. We all do. (maybe you don't think I do, that's fine. :) ) But my question is one that both sides should be able to answer. Whether a person affirms Amillennialism or Premillennialism one should know the answer to my question. I asked you to answer it, knowing that YOU wouldn't reject something YOU proved for yourself. I'm not asking you to take my word for it. I want you to take YOUR word for it. But, in order for YOU to own it, you need to find it for yourself.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Every time you go this route I simply hear you say, "well, I don't have a good response to what he is saying, so I will blow smoke in his face."
No, when someone says something that everyone except that person knows is complete nonsense, then I call it out as such. I don't believe there is another person in the world who would agree with you that Paul changed the subject from Romans 9:24 to verse 25. So, you need me to spell this out for you? Okay then.

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Okay, so throughout this passage Paul is talking about how it is up to God to determine who are His people and who are not, not man. And it's up to God what He wants each person to do and who He will take out His wrath on and so on. And then he points out that God calls not only Jews, but also Gentiles to be His people.

And then he said this:

25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”

This clearly fits the context of what Paul had previously been writing about. He had already been indicating that it is God who determines who His people are, not anyone else. Before verse 25 Paul was indicating that God determines who are His people and who He will take out His wrath on. And then Paul indicated in verse 25 that he will call them "my people" who are not my people. And he points out how He would do that even where "it was said to them 'You are not my people'. This fits the context of what he had just been writing about because it again shows that God is the one who declares who His people are, not anyone else. Many Jews objected to the concept of Gentiles being God's people, but they are. No one can tell God that He can't have Gentiles as His people. As Paul had just said in verse 24, God called not only Jews, but also Gentiles to be His people.

So, this is why I say that there is no basis for claiming that Paul changes the subject in verse 25. He was clearly continuing the subject he had been writing about before that and expanding on it in verses 25 and 26.

Clarifying the OT is not changing it.
Of course not. That's my point. But, you're missing how Paul clarified the meaning of the prophecy of Hosea 2 by indicating that it applies to Gentiles as well.