Another Premillennial absurdity

[CadyandZoe]

Well, I think you know that was a very mature Christian statement! I would, of course, wholeheartedly agree. When someone begins to cast another in a negative light it becomes impossible for him or her to read any positives out of what they say.

However, if this was just a rational matter, it could be rationally resolved. It would have a rational solution. But people are sinful, and have to overcome their sin when they want to be rational in matters that attack their pride. When we misunderstand someone and feel offended, our first reaction is to defend our pride, to fight back.

Many Christians come to grips with this, and either repent immediately, or resolve this over time. But some simply won't--they hang onto their pride.

Paul warned us in 2 Corinthians 11 about divisive people who simply were incorrigible. You have to let them go.

In fact, Paul ran into this time and again. He began 1 Corinthians dealing with the same problem. So there just isn't a rational solution for people who are both sinful and refuse to let go of their pride. Sometimes we have to let go of them.

Someone once told me, not all facts are the same. The fact that Paris is the capital of France doesn't carry the same significance to me personally as the fact that I am a sinner in need of God's grace. Some facts are weightier than other facts and especially facts that challenge my self-image or are important information regarding my existence.

If I were a Pharisee, calling me a sinner would be fighting words. :)

Speaking for me personally, I am always cognizant of Paul's warning to the "teachers of the Law" who maintained an incorrect and dangerous mistaken self-image. In the course of teaching the Bible, teachers face a dangerous occupational hazard: presuming that God favors those who study and teach the Bible. Rather than "justification by faith", one tacitly affirms "justification by teaching the Bible." The following statement should be written over the door of everyone who teaches the Bible.

" You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?"

 

[Truth7t7]

Why would they follow them? I didn't say they followed anyone.

You have and are encouraging persons to read Godless philosophers sympathetically, Darwin to mention one

My Bible below teaches to Beware of persons such as you

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote CadyandZoe Post #544 Below

"How can a Christian student read Darwin, for example, since Christians typically dismiss evolution theory? They had to learn to read sympathetically, to provisionally suspend their own opinion in order to hear the point the author was attempting to make. A Christian doesn't need to agree with Darwin in order to understand what he was saying or to understand his impact on Western Culture."

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have and are encouraging persons to read Godless philosophers sympathetically, Darwin to mention one

My Bible below teaches to Beware of persons such as you

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Reading "sympathetically" isn't about following anyone. I am talking about reading for understanding. In order to truly understand someone, one must provisionally suspend one's own beliefs in order to HEAR (not follow) the other person. Until we actually hear and truly understand someone else, only then will it be possible to give that person a fair hearing and evaluate his or her ideas on their own merits.

I get it. You reject the teachings of Darwin. We all do. But the reason why young people attend college is to learn why bad ideas are bad and how to evaluate new ideas to see if they are sound or not. Wise adults have good reasons to reject Darwin, not simply rejecting him out of hand "because I say so." On the other hand, when kids are young, wise parents guard their children from wrong ideas, presumably having good reasons to reject those ideas. But before kids mature to adulthood, and leave the protection of parents, they need to learn the skills necessary to make wise decisions about new ideas.

With regard to Colossians 2:8, Paul is not rejecting philosophy outright. He rejects only those philosophies that "spoil you" with "the tradition of men." Philosophy means "lover of wisdom" and all Christians should love wisdom. And there are two different kinds of people who love wisdom just like there are two different kinds of people who love ice-skating.

One person loves ice-skating from afar, loving to watch other people skate. One admires the grace and beauty of movement and the seeming ease with which the skater flies around on the ice. Another person loves ice-skating up close, experiencing the activity personally. One learns the techniques of ice-skating, putting those techniques into practice and learning how to perform movement with grace and beauty.

Jesus want's his followers to be lovers of wisdom, not admiring it from afar, but putting wisdom through practice and experience. Don't just believe the faith, put the faith into practice.

 

[Truth7t7]

Reading "sympathetically" isn't about following anyone. I am talking about reading for understanding. In order to truly understand someone, one must provisionally suspend one's own beliefs in order to HEAR (not follow) the other person. Until we actually hear and truly understand someone else, only then will it be possible to give that person a fair hearing and evaluate his or her ideas on their own merits.

I get it. You reject the teachings of Darwin. We all do. But the reason why young people attend college is to learn why bad ideas are bad and how to evaluate new ideas to see if they are sound or not. Wise adults have good reasons to reject Darwin, not simply rejecting him out of hand "because I say so." On the other hand, when kids are young, wise parents guard their children from wrong ideas, presumably having good reasons to reject those ideas. But before kids mature to adulthood, and leave the protection of parents, they need to learn the skills necessary to make wise decisions about new ideas.

With regard to Colossians 2:8, Paul is not rejecting philosophy outright. He rejects only those philosophies that "spoil you" with "the tradition of men." Philosophy means "lover of wisdom" and all Christians should love wisdom. And there are two different kinds of people who love wisdom just like there are two different kinds of people who love ice-skating.

One person loves ice-skating from afar, loving to watch other people skate. One admires the grace and beauty of movement and the seeming ease with which the skater flies around on the ice. Another person loves ice-skating up close, experiencing the activity personally. One learns the techniques of ice-skating, putting those techniques into practice and learning how to perform movement with grace and beauty.

Jesus want's his followers to be lovers of wisdom, not admiring it from afar, but putting wisdom through practice and experience. Don't just believe the faith, put the faith into practice.

Paul is warning believers to stay away from man's philosophy, you are encouraging persons to "Suspend" their Beliefs" to hear and read Godless philosophers

You have and are encouraging persons to read Godless philosophers sympathetically, Darwin to mention one

My Bible below teaches to Beware of persons such as you

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote CadyandZoe Post #544 Below

"How can a Christian student read Darwin, for example, since Christians typically dismiss evolution theory? They had to learn to read sympathetically, to provisionally suspend their own opinion in order to hear the point the author was attempting to make. A Christian doesn't need to agree with Darwin in order to understand what he was saying or to understand his impact on Western Culture."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Someone once told me, not all facts are the same. The fact that Paris is the capital of France doesn't carry the same significance to me personally as the fact that I am a sinner in need of God's grace. Some facts are weightier than other facts and especially facts that challenge my self-image or are important information regarding my existence.

If I were a Pharisee, calling me a sinner would be fighting words. :)

Speaking for me personally, I am always cognizant of Paul's warning to the "teachers of the Law" who maintained an incorrect and dangerous mistaken self-image. In the course of teaching the Bible, teachers face a dangerous occupational hazard: presuming that God favors those who study and teach the Bible. Rather than "justification by faith", one tacitly affirms "justification by teaching the Bible." The following statement should be written over the door of everyone who teaches the Bible.

" You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?"

Of course. Some, by teaching the Bible only become more hypocritical. And some, by teaching the Bible become wiser. I think you're in the latter category! ;)

 

[Truth7t7]

With regard to Colossians 2:8, Paul is not rejecting philosophy outright. He rejects only those philosophies that "spoil you" with "the tradition of men." Philosophy means "lover of wisdom" and all Christians should love wisdom. And there are two different kinds of people who love wisdom just like there are two different kinds of people who love ice-skating.

The Believer is instructed to stand in God's Wisdom, not man's

You can argue your liberal stance all you want, its contrary to scripture

To think you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and now your suggesting that believers set aside their opinions and belief to read "Darwin" sympathetically Way Out In Left Field!

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 2:5KJV
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:19-20KJV
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

James 1:5KJV
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote CadyandZoe Post #544 Below

"How can a Christian student read Darwin, for example, since Christians typically dismiss evolution theory? They had to learn to read sympathetically, to provisionally suspend their own opinion in order to hear the point the author was attempting to make. A Christian doesn't need to agree with Darwin in order to understand what he was saying or to understand his impact on Western Culture."

 

[WPM]

According to God, the family line that came out of Egypt is his chosen people. Deuteronomy 7:4
Paul warned us Gentiles against arrogance. Romans 11:18

Nonsense. Those who hate Christ are of their father the devil, not God. They are antichrist. They are under the wrath of God. This is another gospel, another Jesus, another spirit that you are preaching.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

This couldn’t be clearer. Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? You are presenting another gospel. The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

 

[WPM]

Gentiles are not strangers in their own land.

God's chosen people physically abide in a world that is hostile to its message. They are a spiritual people that possess spiritual land - Jesus Christ. Those who enter into Him, possess the only territory that really matters, experiencing His rest! He is our eternal hope! This world has never been their home; they have always been “strangers and pilgrims on the earth” “aliens" and “foreigners.”

Hebrews 4:1-3 says, “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest.”

And continues in Hebrews 4:9-11 “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

· The place of rest is “a promise” for all God’s people (Hebrews 4:1). However, like every promise that God gives us, it must be received and used.
· That land can only be entered by faith or “with faith” (Hebrews 4:2).
· When a man enters into that place of rest he ceases “from his own works” (Hebrews 4:10). He abandons every confidence in himself.

 

[WPM]

Gentiles are not strangers in their own land.

Verse 10 demonstrates the dominant people in view here are not Jews but Gentiles. These were a people who have previously “in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

This agrees with the constant message of the New Testament that all the people of God, whether Jew or Gentile, have taken a hold of Sion’s king and entered into a heavenly standing in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter isn't talking to Gentile Christians, he is talking to Jewish Christians. The Jewish people are the holy nation.

So, you think people like the Jewish Pharisees and scribes that Jesus called hypocrites and snakes are part of a holy nation? LOL. No, they were part of an unholy nation. You're not reading 1 Peter 2:9 in context.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Notice that the people who were part of the holy nation Peter referred to were previously "not a people". Which means they were previously not the people of God, "but now you are the people of God". How can that statement apply to the Jewish people? It couldn't. It was Gentiles who were not previously the people of God, not Jews. You are not reading 1 Peter 2:9 in context.

Notice that the holy nation of people are also called "a royal priesthood". Do you not know that all believers are part of the royal priesthood? That's what John indicated here:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

When John indicated here that Jesus "has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father", do you think he was talking about the Jewish people or was he talking about Christians (both Jew and Gentile)?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul is warning believers to stay away from man's philosophy, you are encouraging persons to "Suspend" their Beliefs" to hear and read Godless philosophers

You have and are encouraging persons to read Godless philosophers sympathetically, Darwin to mention one

My Bible below teaches to Beware of persons such as you

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote CadyandZoe Post #544 Below

"How can a Christian student read Darwin, for example, since Christians typically dismiss evolution theory? They had to learn to read sympathetically, to provisionally suspend their own opinion in order to hear the point the author was attempting to make. A Christian doesn't need to agree with Darwin in order to understand what he was saying or to understand his impact on Western Culture."

I'm sorry you don't understand the issue we are discussing. I was talking to Randy about reading. I said nothing at all about believing what we read. These are two different issues.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Believer is instructed to stand in God's Wisdom, not man's

So what? God gave man a brain and the ability to draw true conclusions from facts and evidence. God gave man the ability to learn the truth from Parents and teachers. God gave man the ability to study. God gave man the ability to learn from experience. It's not a question of whether wisdom comes from man or God, because all truth comes from God. It's a question of whether or not a man is telling the

To think you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and now your suggesting that believers set aside their opinions and belief to read "Darwin" sympathetically Way Out In Left Field!

Get over it.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm sorry you don't understand the issue we are discussing. I was talking to Randy about reading. I said nothing at all about believing what we read. These are two different issues.

I'm fully aware of what you were trying to do, in promoting the reading of philosophy namwly "Darwin" as seen below in your quote from post #544, you aren't going to backpeddle as if it didn't take place

The Believer is instructed to stand in God's Wisdom, not man's

You can argue your liberal stance all you want, its contrary to scripture

To think you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and now your suggesting that believers set aside their opinions and belief to read "Darwin" sympathetically Way Out In Left Field!

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 2:5KJV
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:19-20KJV
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

James 1:5KJV
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote CadyandZoe Post #544 Below

"How can a Christian student read Darwin, for example, since Christians typically dismiss evolution theory? They had to learn to read sympathetically, to provisionally suspend their own opinion in order to hear the point the author was attempting to make. A Christian doesn't need to agree with Darwin in order to understand what he was saying or to understand his impact on Western Culture."

 

[covenantee]

What do you think "fulfilled" means?

"Fulfilled" appears many times in Scripture.

"Disparate meanings" do not.

 

[Truth7t7]

So what? God gave man a brain and the ability to draw true conclusions from facts and evidence. God gave man the ability to learn the truth from Parents and teachers. God gave man the ability to study. God gave man the ability to learn from experience. It's not a question of whether wisdom comes from man or God, because all truth comes from God. It's a question of whether or not a man is telling the

Get over it.

I will continue to expose your teachings that are contrary to scripture, it's that simple

The Believer is instructed to stand in God's Wisdom, not man's

You can argue your liberal stance all you want, its contrary to scripture

To think you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and now your suggesting that believers set aside their opinions and belief to read "Darwin" sympathetically Way Out In Left Field!

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 2:5KJV
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:19-20KJV
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

James 1:5KJV
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Colossians 2:8-10KJV
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote CadyandZoe Post #544 Below

"How can a Christian student read Darwin, for example, since Christians typically dismiss evolution theory? They had to learn to read sympathetically, to provisionally suspend their own opinion in order to hear the point the author was attempting to make. A Christian doesn't need to agree with Darwin in order to understand what he was saying or to understand his impact on Western Culture."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nonsense. Those who hate Christ are of their father the devil, not God.

Whether or not they are "of their father the devil" is beside the point. God called them out of Egypt and he took them as his people. These facts are indisputable and without controversy. And referring to Moses as nonsensical is both incendiary and not helpful. Paul tells you that while they are enemies of the Gospel, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God?

I didn't say they were "of God." Pay attention.

 

[covenantee]

Gentiles are not aliens in their own country are they? I don't think so.

Christians are sojourners on the earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"Fulfilled" appears many times in Scripture.

"Disparate meanings" do not.

"Refrigerator" doesn't appear in Scripture either. Are you going to claim that refrigerators don't exist?

Look, putting aside all the different meanings that Christians ascribe to the definition of "fulfilled" there are at least three, maybe four connotations of the term "fulfilled" in the New Testament.

A predicted event that came to pass
A promise that was delivered
A promise that was kept in a more complete fashion than originally promised.

Peter has none of these connotations in mind when he says mentions Joel. He literally says, "this is having been spoken by Joel". He doesn't say anything about fulfillment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Christians are sojourners on the earth.

So what. Peter wouldn't write a letter to "all the sojourners on earth." What a vacuous statement.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

According to God, the family line that came out of Egypt is his chosen people. Deuteronomy 7:4
Paul warned us Gentiles against arrogance. Romans 11:18

Christians are God's chosen people! You referenced Romans 11:18. Do you have any understanding of Romans 11 at all? That talks about Gentile believers being grafted in with Israelite believers. That makes Gentile believers His chosen people as well. How can you not know this? Surely, it's not based on ethnicity or nationality or else even wicked people like the Pharisees and scribes would be considered among God's chosen people.

As you should already know, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

Romans 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

So, his primary mission was to preach to the Gentiles.

Look at what this says:

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness

He was "an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God's elect". He said himself he was an apostle to who? The Gentiles. So, whose faith was Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, trying to make stronger as "an apostle of Jesus Christ"? Gentile believers. That makes them part of "God's elect".

Look at this:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Paul is undeniably addressing Gentiles here since he is addressing "the saints which are at Ephesus and he says they are among God's chosen people.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Again, Paul is addressing Gentile believers here and he includes them among God's chosen people.

So, to try and claim that the Jews alone are God's chosen people, as if ethnicity or nationality, has anything to do with being chosen, is proven false by scripture. You never have scripture on your side. You only have your imagination.