Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[Davidpt]

You must first explain how to reconcile a bodily resurrection of saints to live on THIS earth for one thousand years with the verses that clearly prove you err in your understanding. Because none of the dead shall be resurrected before the hour coming when the last trump sounds and time given this earth shall be no longer!

I don't get your point. What does Revelation 19:20 have to do with any of that? Revelation 19:20 happens during the 2nd coming. No one is being resurrected in Revelation 19:20. They are not even dead. They are fully alive. Then they are taken, meaning to me they have been captured while still fully alive, then they are cast ALIVE into a LOF. And like I have pointed out already, to be cast alive into somewhere means one is a living being of some kind. One doesn't have to be human in order to be a living being. For example. God the Father is not human, yet He is a living being. satan is not human, yet he is a living being, he literally exists in some form.

The false prophet is a major problem for Amil since the fp could be human. The way some Amils are trying to get around this, the fp is not even a living being of some kind. As if it makes sense that something that is not a living being of some sort, that it can be cast ALIVE into the LOF. 'Alive' being the keyword.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


As to this, the 2nd death has zero to do with Revelation 20:10 nor Revelation 19:20. Revelation 20:10 does not involve a 2nd death. A 2nd death implies a 1st death, obviously. A first death is not applicable to satan, for example. Therefore, a 2nd death can't be applied to satan. If some interpreters, not just meaning Amils, would simply separate some of these things, one wouldn't be arriving at preposterous conclusions, such as, what happens to humans that are cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:11-15 is the same thing that happens to satan. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in verses 11-15 does it ever say they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in verse 10 does it ever apply the 2nd death to any of that.

Once again, as to Revelation 19:20. We should be using Revelation 20:10 to interpret that, not Revelation 20:14.

 

[WPM]

Your post did not address Psalms 2:1-3. verses 1-3 is what places the rest of Psalms 2 at Jesus Second Coming.

No. Your location of that text is completely wrong. It refers to the First Advent! You are fighting with the NT writers. You are butchering Scripture to support your error.

 

[Douggg]

No. Your location of that text is completely wrong. It refers to the First Advent! You are fighting with the NT writers. You are butchering Scripture to support your error.

You are posting just emotional meaningless chatter.

Explain Psalms 2:1-3. I did, giving the Revelation verses associated with Jesus's Second Coming pertinent to Psalms 2:1-3.

 

[rwb]

I don't get your point. What does Revelation 19:20 have to do with any of that?

You have a tendency David to avoid addressing any inconsistencies shown with Premillennialism! First reconcile your belief in a bodily resurrection of saints at the beginning of this one-thousand-year reign of Christ physically on THIS earth. If you cannot reconcile your doctrine with the Bible, why go to Rev 19 which you might understand differently IF you have rightly discerned a/the thousand years?

"You must first explain how to reconcile a bodily resurrection of saints to live on THIS earth for one thousand years with the verses that clearly prove you err in your understanding. Because none of the dead shall be resurrected before the hour coming when the last trump sounds and time given this earth shall be no longer!"

 

[rwb]

You are posting just emotional meaningless chatter.

Explain Psalms 2:1-3. I did, giving the Revelation verses associated with Jesus's Second Coming pertinent to Psalms 2:1-3.

Ps 2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Ps 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Ps 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Fulfilled through the first advent of Christ and the power of His Spirit. Confirmation from Acts:

Acts 4:25-30 (KJV) Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Acts 4:31 (KJV) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 4:33 (KJV) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

 

[WPM]

You are posting just emotional meaningless chatter.

Explain Psalms 2:1-3. I did, giving the Revelation verses associated with Jesus's Second Coming pertinent to Psalms 2:1-3.

The NT writers did it for me.

 

[Davidpt]

Your post did not address Psalms 2:1-3. verses 1-3 is what places the rest of Psalms 2 at Jesus Second Coming.

Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Does not the following explain it?

Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

First look what Acts 4:25 says-- Who by the mouth of thy servant David. Is or is not Psalms 2:1-3 by the mouth of His servant David? Then look what verse 27 records.

Does it sound like verse 27 is involving what you insisted when you said the following in another post?

"Psalms 2 is about the kings of the earth gathering their armies in Revelation 16:13-16 at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 19:19). The bands in verse 3 is referring to Jesus and His armies of heaven"

Maybe Psalms 2:8-9 can be applied to the 2nd coming and beyond that, but as to the rest of those verses, I'm not seeing how that can be the case as well. We should always interpret Scripture with Scripture when applicable. But meaning the correct Scriptures. In this case, per Psalms 2:1-3. the correct Scriptures to interpret that appear to be Acts 4:25-31 and not Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:14, and Revelation 19:19 instead. These Revelation passages might possibly fit Psalms 2:8-9, but not the other verses in Psalms 2 as well.

I can see how you are arriving at what you do. Yet you can't ignore what Acts 4:25-31 records.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

SI never said Jesus is currently reigning on the earth! What he said is, "Scripture teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6), but you ignore that." He seems to be correct saying you ignore that.

He obviously doesn't have a clue about what Amils believe and he definitely has no clue about our interpretive approach to scripture which he badly misrepresented in another thread that he started.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Does not the following explain it?

Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

First look what Acts 4:25 says-- Who by the mouth of thy servant David. Is or is not Psalms 2:1-3 by the mouth of His servant David? Then look what verse 27 records.

Does it sound like verse 27 is involving what you insisted when you said the following in another post?

"Psalms 2 is about the kings of the earth gathering their armies in Revelation 16:13-16 at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 19:19). The bands in verse 3 is referring to Jesus and His armies of heaven"

Maybe Psalms 2:8-9 can be applied to the 2nd coming and beyond that, but as to the rest of those verses, I'm not seeing how that can be the case as well. We should always interpret Scripture with Scripture when applicable. But meaning the correct Scriptures. In this case, per Psalms 2:1-3. the correct Scriptures to interpret that appear to be Acts 4:25-31 and not Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:14, and Revelation 19:19 instead. These Revelation passages might possibly fit Psalms 2:8-9, but not the other verses in Psalms 2 as well.

I can see how you are arriving at what you do. Yet you can't ignore what Acts 4:25-31 records.

Well done, David. I agree. Acts 4:25-31 clearly shows the context of Psalm 2:1-3 and it obviously has nothing to do with what Doug said it did. Doug never interprets scripture with scripture which is why he is wrong about everything.

 

[Davidpt]

You have a tendency David to avoid addressing any inconsistencies shown with Premillennialism! First reconcile your belief in a bodily resurrection of saints at the beginning of this one-thousand-year reign of Christ physically on THIS earth. If you cannot reconcile your doctrine with the Bible, why go to Rev 19 which you might understand differently IF you have rightly discerned a/the thousand years?

"You must first explain how to reconcile a bodily resurrection of saints to live on THIS earth for one thousand years with the verses that clearly prove you err in your understanding. Because none of the dead shall be resurrected before the hour coming when the last trump sounds and time given this earth shall be no longer!"

There are a number of things I can reconcile that with, which I have done numerous times in the past. If Amils didn't accept it then, I'm to believe they might accept it this time? LOL. Yea right.

Unlike a lot of Amils, I use both testaments combined in order to arrive at some conclusion about something. IOW, just like coins, coins are not one sided, they have 2 sides. To interpret everything based on what the NT alone says rather than what the OT and NT combined says, is being one sided about things, thus not being reasonable.

 

[Rich R]

I apologize if I came on too strongly.

Every single promise God made to Israel of Old regarding the promised land of Cannan has already been fulfilled. Nothing, according to Joshua that God promised them regarding possessing the physical land is left unfulfilled. To have right understanding of the promise of Cannan to Israel of Old, you must consider all that God told them they must not do IF they desired to possess the land forever. God's promise for them to inherit the land forever was always conditioned upon their faithfulness.

Jos 21:43 ¶ And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass

Jos 23:1 ¶ And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
Jos 23:2 And Joshua called for all Israel, and for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers, and said unto them, I am old and stricken in age:
Jos 23:3 And ye have seen all that the LORD your God hath done unto all these nations because of you; for the LORD your God is he that hath fought for you.
Jos 23:4 Behold, I have divided unto you by lot these nations that remain, to be an inheritance for your tribes, from Jordan, with all the nations that I have cut off, even unto the great sea westward.
Jos 23:5 And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you.
Jos 23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;
Jos 23:7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:
Jos 23:8 But cleave unto the LORD your God, as ye have done unto this day.
Jos 23:9 For the LORD hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day.
Jos 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.
Jos 23:11 ¶ Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
Jos 23:12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Jos 23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Then why does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et.al. talk about Israel receiving an everlasting kingdom. They wrote some time after Joshua, so it wouldn't it seem they were talking about a promise that had not been fulfilled? A promise that was yet future? Notice all the "will" and "shall" in the following verses. Not much in them about past events as those in Joshua.

Isa 14:1,

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.​

Jer 3:18,

In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.​

Jer 7:7,

Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.​

Jer 11:5,

That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as [it is] this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.​

Jer 25:5,

They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:​

Jer 30:3,

For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.​

Jer 32:15,

For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Houses and fields and vineyards shall be possessed again in this land.​

Jer 32:41,

Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.​

Ezek 11:17,

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.​

Ezek 20:42,

And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country [for] the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.​

Ezek 28:25,

Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.​

There are many other similar verses talking about some time after the kingdom of David & Solomon. All of these verses are talking about the future. Clearly that kingdom did not last forever as the one promised in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et. al.

I would suggest that is precisely the Jerusalem that will come down from God.

Rev 21:1-2,

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

​

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

One thing is for sure, Joshua can't contradict Jeremiah. Somehow they have to fit. That's why we're told to be workmen rightly dividing the word of truth. Could it be that it is not uncommon to have multiple fulfillment of prophecy? Someone in this thread correctly said just that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 150+ promises of land and a kingdom God promised to Israel. The first promise was made to Abraham where the land was a land that Abraham could see with his eyes. God told him to look North, East, South, and West. Never said anything about looking up.

Do you not accept that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ, as Paul taught?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I see no evidence that such land became other heavenly. God is very consistent in His use of the word, "land."

Have you ever read this:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all came to realize that "the land of promise" was "a strange country" and they "confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth". They realized that instead of looking to inherit a certain piece of land they should instead be looking for "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" and "a better country, that is, an heavenly". So, why can't you understand that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are a number of things I can reconcile that with, which I have done numerous times in the past. If Amils didn't accept it then, I'm to believe they might accept it this time? LOL. Yea right.

Unlike a lot of Amils, I use both testaments combined in order to arrive at some conclusion about something. IOW, just like coins, coins are not one sided, they have 2 sides. To interpret everything based on what the NT alone says rather than what the OT and NT combined says, is being one sided about things, thus not being reasonable.

Nonsense. You set the OT and NT against each other, but amil reconciles them together. For the most part we should use the NT to help interpret the OT whenever possible. The NT authors frequently gave their understanding of OT prophecies. So, why not allow them to tell us what those OT prophecies mean in those cases? Repeatedly, the NT teaches that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns. Why should we try to change all those NT scriptures as if we somehow understand the OT better than Jesus and the NT authors did?

 

[Douggg]

I can see how you are arriving at what you do. Yet you can't ignore what Acts 4:25-31 records.

Peter and John speaking in Acts 4:24-31 made use of Psalms 2:1-2, but is not the fulfillment of Psalms 2.

Peter and John in Acts 4:24-31 did not address Psalms 2:3 and the remainder of Psalms 2 which involves God's wrath against the kings of the earth gathering to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven. The "their bands" in verse 3 is referring to Jesus and His armies of heaven. Who they will see in heaven in Sixth seal event.

Keep in mind at the time of Acts, Revelation had not yet been given to John.

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

 

[Rich R]

Do you not accept that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ, as Paul taught?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Have you ever read this:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all came to realize that "the land of promise" was "a strange country" and they "confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth". They realized that instead of looking to inherit a certain piece of land they should instead be looking for "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" and "a better country, that is, an heavenly". So, why can't you understand that?

How would these verses fit with all of that?

Heb 11:13,

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.​

​

Heb 11:39,

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:​

​

When would you say they will receive the promise? It doesn't appear to me that they've received it yet.

​

Could the city spoken of in verse 16 be the Jerusalem come down from heaven in Revelation 21:1-2? Hebrews 11:16 doesn't really say the city will be in heaven whereas Revelation sure seems to say it will come down from heaven. Come down to where? I'd say the earth, the earth that is composed of land, as in dirt. The same land that Abraham saw with his eyes in the original promise. Humans don't do too good in clouds. God created humans as earthlings. The spirits, angels, are those who inhabit heaven.

 

[WPM]

Then why does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et.al. talk about Israel receiving an everlasting kingdom. They wrote some time after Joshua, so it wouldn't it seem they were talking about a promise that had not been fulfilled? A promise that was yet future? Notice all the "will" and "shall" in the following verses. Not much in them about past events as those in Joshua.

Isa 14:1,

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.​

Jer 3:18,

In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.​

Jer 7:7,

Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.​

Jer 11:5,

That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as [it is] this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.​

Jer 25:5,

They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:​

Jer 30:3,

For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.​

Jer 32:15,

For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Houses and fields and vineyards shall be possessed again in this land.​

Jer 32:41,

Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.​

Ezek 11:17,

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.​

Ezek 20:42,

And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country [for] the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.​

Ezek 28:25,

Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.​

There are many other similar verses talking about some time after the kingdom of David & Solomon. All of these verses are talking about the future. Clearly that kingdom did not last forever as the one promised in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et. al.

I would suggest that is precisely the Jerusalem that will come down from God.

Rev 21:1-2,

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

​

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

One thing is for sure, Joshua can't contradict Jeremiah. Somehow they have to fit. That's why we're told to be workmen rightly dividing the word of truth. Could it be that it is not uncommon to have multiple fulfillment of prophecy? Someone in this thread correctly said just that.

Probably, the most important issue that needs to be addressed in this whole discussion, in order to conclusively understand this matter, is the meaning of the phrase “for ever.”

Genesis 13:14-15; 15:18; and 17:7-8 are probably the most commonly presented texts supporting the idea that natural Israel has been promised eternal possession of the physical geographical land of Israel. From a plain reading of these texts in English, that would seem to be a fair construal. But to be absolutely certain we must examine the meaning of the ancient pledge given by God in the original Hebrew in order to grasp the full force of the promises. We need to ascertain whether “for ever” or “everlasting” is the right or most suitable English translations of the Hebrew word `owlam (Strong’s 5769), which comes up 438 in the Old Testament.

We should establish at the beginning of this important examination that the English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable.

D. Brent Sandy explains in Plowshares & Pruning Hooks: Rethinking the Language of Biblical Prophecy and Apocalyptic, “forever can designate something that is true and lasts indefinitely into the future, without interruption and without end.”

But was this exactly what God was promising Abraham in regard to the land of Canaan in Genesis 13:15? Is this literally what the Hebrew word means? Taking the English KJV translation at face value you might imagine this to mean that Abraham’s seed would possess the land of Canaan eternally (namely without end).

As you dig deeper, you quickly discover that there are many major weaknesses to this assumption. It is therefore important that we look at each of these in detail.

First, and most importantly, if one is to insist on this word referring to an unbroken uninterrupted unending duration (which is what the English word “for ever” means) then God broke His promise to Abraham’s seed. We would have to conclude that there is a question mark over the veracity of the Word of God. After all, history proves Abraham’s seed has not held its ancient land boundaries without end. Israel has been often removed from the land due to disobedience.

So, has God broken His Word?

We know God cannot lie or break His Word. Numbers 23:19 confirms: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

We can trust every promise in this Book.

Romans 3:4 states: “let God be true, but every man a liar.”

The veracity and fulfillment of every Word God speaks is beyond dispute. It will always happen.

Isaiah 46:9-11 makes clear, “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.”

We know Scripture never contradicts Scripture. God is not taken by surprise. Before God created Abraham, Israel or gave one promise He knew Israel would disobey. He knew they would be exiled from the land.

Consequently, He never gave Abraham a false promise and then went back on His word when man failed. It is manifest that there has been no unending possession of Palestine. So, we already have strong grounds to question a literal eternal fulfilment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How would these verses fit with all of that?

Heb 11:13,

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.​

​

Heb 11:39,

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:​

​

When would you say they will receive the promise? It doesn't appear to me that they've received it yet.

When Jesus returns. Peter said that according to the promise of His coming we will look forward to inheriting the new heavens and the new earth.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Could the city spoken of in verse 16 be the Jerusalem come down from heaven in Revelation 21:1-2?

Yes, for sure.

Hebrews 11:16 doesn't really say the city will be in heaven whereas Revelation sure seems to say it will come down from heaven.

Right. It describes it as being heavenly, but that doesn't mean it is in heaven. It will be heavenly in nature. Perfect. Without sin and death. Eternal.

Come down to where? I'd say the earth, the earth that is composed of land, as in dirt.

The new earth, of course. That's what Revelation 21 refers to. I believe the new earth will be this earth after it is burned up and renewed by fire.

The same land that Abraham saw with his eyes in the original promise. Humans don't do too good in clouds. God created humans as earthlings. The spirits, angels, are those who inhabit heaven.

Yes, but instead of just a piece of land on the earth, he, and all believers, will inherit the entire new earth.

 

[Rich R]

Probably, the most important issue that needs to be addressed in this whole discussion, in order to conclusively understand this matter, is the meaning of the phrase “for ever.”

Genesis 13:14-15; 15:18; and 17:7-8 are probably the most commonly presented texts supporting the idea that natural Israel has been promised eternal possession of the physical geographical land of Israel. From a plain reading of these texts in English, that would seem to be a fair construal. But to be absolutely certain we must examine the meaning of the ancient pledge given by God in the original Hebrew in order to grasp the full force of the promises. We need to ascertain whether “for ever” or “everlasting” is the right or most suitable English translations of the Hebrew word `owlam (Strong’s 5769), which comes up 438 in the Old Testament.

We should establish at the beginning of this important examination that the English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable.

D. Brent Sandy explains in Plowshares & Pruning Hooks: Rethinking the Language of Biblical Prophecy and Apocalyptic, “forever can designate something that is true and lasts indefinitely into the future, without interruption and without end.”

But was this exactly what God was promising Abraham in regard to the land of Canaan in Genesis 13:15? Is this literally what the Hebrew word means? Taking the English KJV translation at face value you might imagine this to mean that Abraham’s seed would possess the land of Canaan eternally (namely without end).

As you dig deeper, you quickly discover that there are many major weaknesses to this assumption. It is therefore important that we look at each of these in detail.

First, and most importantly, if one is to insist on this word referring to an unbroken uninterrupted unending duration (which is what the English word “for ever” means) then God broke His promise to Abraham’s seed. We would have to conclude that there is a question mark over the veracity of the Word of God. After all, history proves Abraham’s seed has not held its ancient land boundaries without end. Israel has been often removed from the land due to disobedience.

So, has God broken His Word?

We know God cannot lie or break His Word. Numbers 23:19 confirms: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

We can trust every promise in this Book.

Romans 3:4 states: “let God be true, but every man a liar.”

The veracity and fulfillment of every Word God speaks is beyond dispute. It will always happen.

Isaiah 46:9-11 makes clear, “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.”

We know Scripture never contradicts Scripture. God is not taken by surprise. Before God created Abraham, Israel or gave one promise He knew Israel would disobey. He knew they would be exiled from the land.

Consequently, He never gave Abraham a false promise and then went back on His word when man failed. It is manifest that there has been no unending possession of Palestine. So, we already have strong grounds to question a literal eternal fulfilment.

You are correct in what you say about the word we translate as everlasting. In fact the Hebrew word "olam" and several variations of that word can have different meanings depending on the context. For example, Genesis 21:33 calls Yahweh, "the olam God." I'd think in that case our understanding of the word "everlasting" is appropriate. There are other usages that, as you inferred, may mean something slightly different. At least that's what I think you said.

Did God break His promise of a literal land to Abraham? I think not.

There are 2 major covenants in the OT. One was to Abraham, the other to Israel. We dare not mix them up.

The one made to Israel was two way involved land, the promised land of Canaan to be precise. It was a bilateral agreement. Israel had their part and God had His part. Although Israel didn't keep up their part (the golden calf straight out of the gate), God still stayed true to His part. He gave them the promised land. But Israel was so disobedient the God was eventually unable (or unwilling?) to keep up His part and Israel lost their land. Thus the land inherited by Israel does not fit the meaning of the word "olam" in any way. It wasn't even in the parking lot of the ballpark, let alone the ballpark itself.

But there was another entirely different covenant that had a promise of land, namely, the one to Abraham. That one was unilateral. Abraham was asleep when God observed the usual ceremony that ratified a covenant. Only God passed between the split carcass. What is doesn't say is exactly when Abraham would inherit that land. I maintain that it will be fulfilled at the second appearance of Christ, which is exactly what the Apostles understood as they watched Jesus ascend into the air. There are tons of verses in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et. al. that support such and idea. Same with all of the NT. The all speak of a future fulfillment of a land, the land promised to Abraham. So, no, God did not break His promise to Abraham. It just hasn't been fulfilled yet.

 

[Rich R]

When Jesus returns. Peter said that according to the promise of His coming we will look forward to inheriting the new heavens and the new earth.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Great verses!

Right. It describes it as being heavenly, but that doesn't mean it is in heaven. It will be heavenly in nature. Perfect. Without sin and death. Eternal.

Something to look forward to indeed! I wish it'd happen before I press the "Post reply" button, but we'll see it eventually.

The new earth, of course. That's what Revelation 21 refers to. I believe the new earth will be this earth after it is burned up and renewed by fire

Good point. The earth will be renewed so as to be like the original creation where everything was " very good." The Hebrew word for "good" is "tov" which I understand a Hebrew from the Ancient Near East would understand as "functional" or something that worked as defined. Adam and Eve introduced "evil" or Hebrew "ra" which they would the ancient Jew would have understood as something dysfunctional or something that didn't work to maintain things the way God originally created them. I'm no Hebrew scholar, but it paints a picture in my mind that explains why things are they way the are. It also gives me hope that things eventually will be the way God meant them to be in the Garden of Eden.

Yes, but instead of just a piece of land on the earth, he, and all believers, will inherit the entire new earth.

Yep. It'll be one big paradise!

 

[rwb]

Then why does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et.al. talk about Israel receiving an everlasting kingdom. They wrote some time after Joshua, so it wouldn't it seem they were talking about a promise that had not been fulfilled? A promise that was yet future? Notice all the "will" and "shall" in the following verses. Not much in them about past events as those in Joshua.

The prophets of Old foretell of an everlasting kingdom that would come when the promised Messiah Savior came. The verses and passages of Old that make reference to an "everlasting Kingdom" are not speaking of a physical Kingdom of God to come physically to this earth. All who inherit the everlasting Kingdom of God are faithful saints from both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. How can there be an everlasting Kingdom of God on THIS earth since this earth and everything on it is destined to utter destruction by fire? Where do any of the prophets ever write that the everlasting Kingdom of God they longed for would only be on this earth for one thousand years? That is not how an everlasting Kingdom can be defined.

Christ came with the everlasting Kingdom of God that all the Old Covenant prophets foretell. The problem for many is that you are looking for a physical Kingdom of God on THIS earth. But the everlasting Kingdom the prophets foretell, that Christ came to earth with is not a physical kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom that shall not be seen with physical sight but is within the faithful. Look at all the references to the Kingdom of God in the New Testament. The Kingdom that Christ says has come, and proof that it has come should be understood as Christ went about casting out devils. Since His coming the gospel of Christ is being preached and all mankind are instructed to seek for the Kingdom of God. How could mankind seek for that which has not come?

Christ says the Kingdom of God is not NOW of THIS world for His Kingdom is not from here. The everlasting Kingdom of God is what the Law pointed to and the prophets foretold, that was preached to them as well as to we who live after His first coming.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 16:16 (KJV) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 12:31-32 (KJV) But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

In Christ the promise of physical land has been greatly expanded upon. Why would faithful saints of Old or New Covenant be satisfied with Caanan since Christ promises His faithful saints shall inherit the whole new earth?