Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[Keraz]

Is this referring to 1000 actual generations?

Using instances where a 'thousand' is used metaphorically to deny it when used literally, is error and confuzion. I regard that sort of argument as childish and irrelevant.

It's absolutely clear and plain scripturally that Jesus reigns now.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If so, He's doing a terrible job.
When Jesus Returns, THEN He will assume full authority.

That is what 2 Peter 3:8 means. YOU are the one who denies plain scriptural truths.

What a joke!
You say 2 Peter 3:8 does NOT mean what it plainly says.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Context. If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years? Since 2,000 years have gone by since Jesus died, we have another 1,000 years to go before he rises. That is the millennium talked about in Revelation.

This is a weak argument to make regarding a passage found within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture.

So, is it your view that the following verse is referring to a literal one hour of time then?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Using instances where a 'thousand' is used metaphorically to deny it when used literally, is error and confuzion. I regard that sort of argument as childish and irrelevant.

LOL. Of course you would. Because of your huge ego, you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that the word "thousand" can be used figuratively in scripture, including Revelation 20, even though it is used figuratively several times.

If so, He's doing a terrible job.
When Jesus Returns, THEN He will assume full authority.

May He have mercy on your soul for saying this. His Spirit has led "a great multitude" to salvation, but you say He's doing a terrible job. Since He's not trying to be a world dictator like Hitler or Stalin, then to you that means He's doing a terrible job. Unbelievable. Nonsense!

What a joke!
You say 2 Peter 3:8 does NOT mean what it plainly says.

LOL. The joke is your carnal approach to interpreting scripture. The context of that verse is in relation to how long it is taking Jesus to fulfill the promise of His coming again.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

From the human perspective it can seem to some that He is being slow to keep the promise of His coming. But, from His perspective He is not being slow. Notice it doesn't just say a day is like a thousand years with Him, but also that a thousand years are like a day. That means a day and a thousand years are no different to Him at all. And that is because He exists outside of time. He created time. I have to wonder who exactly you think He is, anyway? You don't acknowledge Him as King. You don't seem to acknowledge that He exists outside of time and created time. Do you believe that Jesus is God?

 

[Rich R]

This is a weak argument to make regarding a passage found within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture.

So, is it your view that the following verse is referring to a literal one hour of time then?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Have you ever done an in-depth study of the different words used for time in the scriptures? Assuming you have, how can you tell when a period of time is literal or figurative? Or are they all literal or are they all figurative?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Have you ever done an in-depth study of the different words used for time in the scriptures? Assuming you have, how can you tell when a period of time is literal or figurative? Or are they all literal or are they all figurative?

Did you miss my question? Please answer my question first and then I'll answer yours.

You had said "If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years?".

So, is it your view that the following verse is referring to a literal one hour of time then?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

It seems to be your contention that every period of time referenced in scripture is literal, so that's why I asked the question.

 

[Rich R]

Did you miss my question? Please answer my question first and then I'll answer yours.

Fair enough. In a moment.

You had said "If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years?".

A question you didn't answer. But for the record, I was being facetious.

So, is it your view that the following verse is referring to a literal one hour of time then?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

The Greek word for hour is:

G5610 ὥρα hora (hō'-ra) n.​

an “hour.”​

{literally or figuratively}​

​

Maybe it was somebody else, but I did mention context. It would be reasonable to say the in the case of Rev 17:12, one hour would be figurative.

A couple of other usages of "hora" could shed some light on the matter.

Matt 14:15,

And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time (hora, looks figurative) is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.​

​

Matt 8:13,

And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour (hora, I see no reason it couldn't be literal).​

​

​

Context.

It seems to be your contention that every period of time referenced in scripture is literal, so that's why I asked the question.

Well, all I can say is you misunderstood me. I never said anything about "every" time period.

So, now you can answer my question. Maybe it'll cause me to change my mind on some things.

Have you ever done an in-depth study of the different words used for time in the scriptures? Assuming you have, how can you tell when a period of time is literal or figurative? Or are they all literal or are they all figurative?​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A question you didn't answer.

LOL. Because you didn't ask me that question. It was a question you asked WPM.

The Greek word for hour is:

G5610 ὥρα hora (hō'-ra) n.​

an “hour.”​

{literally or figuratively}​

​

Maybe it was somebody else, but I did mention context

Well, all I can say is you misunderstood me. I never said anything about "every" time period.

So, what did you mean when you said "If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years?". Who was indicating that any length of time can be made to not really be what it says? No one. It's always all about context and all about interpreting any given verse or passage in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture. Amils interpret the thousand years to be figurative because of what we see taught elsewhere in scripture about the timing of the reign of Christ, the binding of Satan, the resurrection of the dead, Satan's little season and the day of judgment.

So, now you can answer my question. Maybe it'll cause me to change my mind on some things.

Have you ever done an in-depth study of the different words used for time in the scriptures? Assuming you have, how can you tell when a period of time is literal or figurative? Or are they all literal or are they all figurative?​

I'm not even sure what you mean here. Do you mean studying the Greek words like "hora" (hour) or "aion" (age) and so on? If so, I have studied those to some extent, but maybe not in-depth. Just like is the case for English words, most Greek words have multiple definitions. Why do you ask?

 

[Rich R]

LOL. Because you didn't ask me that question. It was a question you asked WPM.


So, what did you mean when you said "If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years?". Who was indicating that any length of time can be made to not really be what it says? No one. It's always all about context and all about interpreting any given verse or passage in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

As I said, I was being facetious about Jesus being in grave for 3,000 days (or years, whatever, facetious is facetious). I guess I failed to make my point with you.

And yes, I too see the importance of context.

Amils interpret the thousand years to be figurative because of what we see taught elsewhere in scripture about the timing of the reign of Christ, the binding of Satan, the resurrection of the dead, Satan's little season and the day of judgment.

I just looked at the Greek word for "year."

G2094 ἔτος etos (e'-tos) n.
a year.

It sure seems that every usage of the word outside of Revelation means a literal year. As such, I don't see why it wouldn't be used the same way in Revelation.

Could it be that the unspecified length of Satan's little season could be nailed down elsewhere as 1,000 literal years?

I'm not even sure what you mean here. Do you mean studying the Greek words like "hora" (hour) or "aion" (age) and so on? If so, I have studied those to some extent, but maybe not in-depth. Just like is the case for English words, most Greek words have multiple definitions.

True enough. hora and aion do have multiple meanings. However etos does appear to have consistent meaning, i.e. a year.

Why do you ask?

I was just curious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I said, I was being facetious about Jesus being in grave for 3,000 days (or years, whatever, facetious is facetious). I guess I failed to make my point with you.

And yes, I too see the importance of context.

No, I saw the point. Obviously, just randomly making a reference to a time period non-literal can result in some ridiculous interpretations, but no one is doing that. It's not a point that needed to be made.

I just looked at the Greek word for "year."

G2094 ἔτος etos (e'-tos) n.
a year.

It sure seems that every usage of the word outside of Revelation means a literal year. As such, I don't see why it wouldn't be used the same way in Revelation.

This is not how to interpret scripture. Are any of those other usages of the word "year" found in highly symbolic books like Revelation? You're comparing apples to oranges here. You could do a similar study of the word "hora" where it's preceded by a number and find that it always is used literally except for Revelation 17:12. That doesn't mean it's used literally in Revelation 17:12.

And why would you look only at the word for "year" and not look at how the word "thousand" is used elsewhere in scripture? It is sometimes used figuratively like in the references to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9 and other verses) or the cattle on "a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10). So, there's no reason why it can't be used that way in Revelation 20 as well. That doesn't automatically mean it is, but it shows that it can be used that way and that should be taken into consideration.

Could it be that the unspecified length of Satan's little season could be nailed down elsewhere as 1,000 literal years?

What? Of course not. What a silly question. Why did you ask this question?

 

[Rich R]

And why would you look only at the word for "year" and not look at how the word "thousand" is used elsewhere in scripture? It is sometimes used figuratively like in the references to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9 and other verses) or the cattle on "a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10). So, there's no reason why it can't be used that way in Revelation 20 as well. That doesn't automatically mean it is, but it shows that it can be used that way and that should be taken into consideration.

You're right about the importance of what 1,000 means. I think I'm going to spend some time researching what "1,000" meant in the Ancient Near East. I'm going to study its meaning, not just in the Bible, but in the Ancient Near East. I think it'd be more neutral and it's usage in the Bible is probably influenced by the general meaning of the term as used in the general culture.

Maybe my assumptions will prove to be incorrect. I may well find that 1,000 means some indefinite period of time. I'm open to that.

But whether 1,000 means 1 day or 10,000 years, isn't the real issue when the "1,000" years take place? Is the millennial happening now or is it yet future?

 

[Douggg]

And why would you look only at the word for "year" and not look at how the word "thousand" is used elsewhere in scripture? It is sometimes used figuratively like in the references to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9 and other verses) or the cattle on "a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10). So, there's no reason why it can't be used that way in Revelation 20 as well. That doesn't automatically mean it is, but it shows that it can be used that way and that should be taken into consideration.

The difference in cattle on "a thousand" hills, and the thousand years in Revelation 20 - is that in Revelation20, there is a beginning and an ending to prove that it is literal - not metaphoric.

Just as the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11 are literal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're right about the importance of what 1,000 means. I think I'm going to spend some time researching what "1,000" meant in the Ancient Near East. I'm going to study its meaning, not just in the Bible, but in the Ancient Near East. I think it'd be more neutral and it's usage in the Bible is probably influenced by the general meaning of the term as used in the general culture.

There's no need to do that. It doesn't just mean one thing. It can be used figuratively or literally. We need to use discernment to determine which is which is any given verse.

Maybe my assumptions will prove to be incorrect. I may well find that 1,000 means some indefinite period of time. I'm open to that.

It can mean that or it can be literal. You have to discern which is which. I don't determine that from Revelation 20 alone. My doctrine comes from other straightforward scripture that I use to help interpret Revelation 20. And other scripture does not allow for it to be talking about a literal thousand years after the return of Christ.

But whether 1,000 means 1 day or 10,000 years, isn't the real issue when the "1,000" years take place? Is the millennial happening now or is it yet future?

Obviously, I believe it started with Christ's resurrection because scripture teaches that is when He began to reign (Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Colossians 1:12-13, Revelation 1:5-6). But, some of us Amils believe that Satan's little season has begun, so we would not say that we are still in the thousand years now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The difference in cattle on "a thousand" hills, and the thousand years in Revelation 20 - is that in Revelation20, there is a beginning and an ending to prove that it is literal - not metaphoric.

Just as the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11 are literal.

You're always using ridiculously biased logic. Daniel's 70 weeks have a beginning and ending and you don't interpret that to be a literal 490 days. So much for your man-made rule. You can throw that in the garbage.

Is the following verse referring to a literal one hour?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[IndianaRob]

Just as the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11 are literal.

Douggg you’ve been reading the Bible forever right? Have you not noticed that “thousand” always point to Gods people.

Jesus returns with 10 thousands of his saints.

Of the tribe of Judah were sealed 12 THOUSAND…

For though ye have ten THOUSAND instructors in Christ..

The cattle on a THOUSAND hills are Gods sheep. The THOUSAND year reign is the life of Gods sheep on earth under His dominion.

 

[Douggg]

You're always using ridiculously biased logic.

LOL Yeah 2 + 2 = 4 is ridiculous logic to you.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg you’ve been reading the Bible forever right? Have you not noticed that “thousand” always point to Gods people.

I just did a word search for "thousand" in the kjv bible.

These are the results...

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=thousand

 

[IndianaRob]

I just did a word search for "thousand" in the kjv bible.

These are the results...

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=thousand

I’m guessing that means you haven’t noticed lol. No problem, I just put things out there that maybe others haven’t noticed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL Yeah 2 + 2 = 4 is ridiculous logic to you.

LOL. I showed how your logic doesn't work in relation to Daniel's 70 weeks. No response from you. Why not? And I asked you this with no response:

Is the following verse referring to a literal one hour?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I'm putting your logic to the test and it's failing. If you really thought that the logic you were using was sound, then you wouldn't be such a coward and you would respond to what I'm saying here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Douggg you’ve been reading the Bible forever right? Have you not noticed that “thousand” always point to Gods people.

Jesus returns with 10 thousands of his saints.

Of the tribe of Judah were sealed 12 THOUSAND…

For though ye have ten THOUSAND instructors in Christ..

The cattle on a THOUSAND hills are Gods sheep. The THOUSAND year reign is the life of Gods sheep on earth under His dominion.

LOL. The cattle on a thousand hills refers to literal cattle, not God's people. This shows how reckless you are in interpreting scripture. Did you even look at the verse?

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

The context of the verse is obviously in relation to animals, not people.

 

[IndianaRob]

LOL. The cattle on a thousand hills refers to literal cattle, not God's people. This shows how reckless you are in interpreting scripture. Did you even look at the verse?

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

The context of the verse is obviously in relation to animals, not people.

Have it your way.