Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life

[MatthewG]

Just answer this simple question.

Why would God put his wrath on his son when God talks openly about destroying those who killed his son, in the Old Testament?

Why does John the baptist ask the question?

Luke 3:7
Matthew 3:7

@GracePeace it was a promise for killing the son of God that israel would suffer the wrath of God. Jesus took on the cup of suffering and paid for sin through his willfulness and died on the cross. Death was the punishment.

 

[MatthewG]

Here is a parable to consider.

Parable of the Evil Farmers​

33 “Now listen to another story. A certain landowner planted a vineyard, built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country. 34 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent his servants to collect his share of the crop.35 But the farmers grabbed his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 So the landowner sent a larger group of his servants to collect for him, but the results were the same.

37 “Finally, the owner sent his son, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’

38 “But when the tenant farmers saw his son coming, they said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Come on, let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 39 So they grabbed him, dragged him out of the vineyard, and murdered him.

40 “When the owner of the vineyard returns,”Jesus asked, “what do you think he will do to those farmers?”

41 The religious leaders replied, “He will put the wicked men to a horrible death and lease the vineyard to others who will give him his share of the crop after each harvest.”

 

[GracePeace]

Just answer this simple question.

Why would God put his wrath on his son when God talks openly about destroying those who killed his son, in the Old Testament?

Why does John the baptist ask the question?

Luke 3:7
Matthew 3:6

@GracePeace it was a promise for killing the son of God that israel would suffer the wrath of God. Jesus took on the cup of suffering and paid for sin through his willfulness and died on the cross. Death was the punishment.

These are not mutually exclusive. Jesus paid for non-eternal/forgivable sins. Anyone who wants can go to the wedding party, but anyone who doesn't won't enjoy the food.

 

[MatthewG]

Whatever you wanna do @GracePeace Im just saying if you where God what reason would you have to pour out your wrath on your beloved son who di everything right by his own choice doing his will.

If you cant answer that or you cant say hey you know that makes sense; believe whatever you want to; i hate people believe Jesus was the one who took the wrath… its so stupid…

Why? Why him and not Gods chosen people who rejected him?

Whatever you wanna have in your mind and soul and heart is on you and only way to renew the mind is through learnings Gods will.

Was it Gods will for Jesus to be crushed, yes.
What about his wrath on his son? No. Not to me, Jesus did take on the cup of suffering but not the wrath of God.

I was resding about the cup of the wrath of God in jeremiah last night.

All the best, sir or maam.

 

[GracePeace]

These are not mutually exclusive. Jesus paid for non-eternal/forgivable sins. Anyone who wants can go to the wedding party, but anyone who doesn't won't enjoy the food.

Physical death isn't the "wrath" living men are under, the wrath they're under is at least in part spiritual death. When men believe they pass from death to life--if not they REMAIN under God's wrath, spiritually dead.

 

[GracePeace]

Whatever you wanna do @GracePeace Im just saying if you where God what reason would you have to pour out your wrath on your beloved son who di everything right by his own choice doing his will.

If you cant answer that or you cant say hey you know that makes sense; believe whatever you want to; i hate people believe Jesus was the one who took the wrath… its so stupid…

Why? Why him and not Gods chosen people who rejected him?

Whatever you wanna have in your mind and soul and heart is on you and only way to renew the mind is through learnings Gods will.

Was it Gods will for Jesus to be crushed, yes.
What about his wrath on his son? No. Not to me, Jesus did take on the cup of suffering but not the wrath of God.

I was resding about the cup of the wrath of God in jeremiah last night.

All the best, sir or maam.

God would pour out His wrath on Christ, bc that was where our sins were.

 

[MatthewG]

God would pour out His wrath on Christ, bc that was where our sins were.

Ok. I disagree. Sorry. There no scripture that even says that anyway when you think about it. Its just a made up tradition. A myth. Thank you for dialoging.

Jesus does talk about a cup he would drink and his aposltes would drink that was the cup of suffering. They went through suffering in life being killed for faith, put in front of kings, being jailed, and all that.

 

[GracePeace]

Ok. I disagree. Sorry. There no scripture that even says that anyway when you think about it. Its just a made up tradition. A myth. Thank you for dialoging.

Isaiah 53. He bore our sins.

 

[MatthewG]

Isaiah 53. He bore our sins.

Yes.



But your missing the point.

Its foolish to not try to pay attention dude.

Imma walk away dude see ya.

 

[GracePeace]

Ok. I disagree. Sorry. There no scripture that even says that anyway when you think about it. Its just a made up tradition. A myth. Thank you for dialoging.

All the OT sacrifices prefigured Christ. The priests would place the sins of the people onto them. Christ is called a "guilt offering" in Isaiah 53 and it says He bore our sins. Don't know how much clearer it could be stated.

 

[MatthewG]

Your missing the point. Thats not good.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes.



But your missing the point.

Its foolish to not try to pay attention dude.

Imma walk away dude see ya.

OK

 

[GracePeace]

Your missing the point. Thats not good.

Idk what point I'm "missing".

 

[MatthewG]

I believe your a smart individual. But you gonna do what you need to, good bye.

 

[GracePeace]

I believe your a smart individual. But you gonna do what you need to, good bye.

Let's not get off topic ("smart").

I believe Scripture, that's all. I didn't think Christ bearing sin and wrath was controversial.

 

[MatthewG]

People who dont study dont know the difference its not a salvation issue but it is a critical view… in how on Views God in my opinion. But that is my opinion.

 

[GracePeace]

People who dont study dont know the difference its not a salvation issue but it is a critical view… in how on Views God in my opinion.

It makes God exceedingly kind and smart that He still satisfied justice while championing mercy at the same time.

 

[MatthewG]

Good bye.

 

[MatthewG]

You know im glad i got to try to talk to you about it but you dont see any difference. That is alright maybe one day you will, but idk. May you continue to increase in your knowledge and may you continue to abide in the spirit of christ through your life. Im kind of just done talking in general cause i been talking alot in the past several days. God bless you and everyone else on this board.

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan I hope, even though you disagree (based on your "frown" reactions), you can see that I'm just trying to follow Scripture. I have to believe what I read.

My frown reactions signify I don't agree with your doctrine, which culminates in works-righteousness, self-righteousness and self-preservation, which is similar to what Roman Catholicism teaches.

I'm sure these many people in Matthew 7:22 were sincere about trying to follow Scripture as well, yet Jesus never knew them. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge. Sincerity is not enough. We ALL need to make sure that we are correct when it comes to Christian doctrine and that we don't end up twisting the Scriptures to our own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16) Our salvation depends on it.

In Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus said - Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Jesus Christ is the only way. (John 10:9; 14:6) We need to be sure that we truly believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:11-13 etc..).

Actually, the correct translation is "He who IS BELIEVING"--ongoing believing in the present tense--which is exactly in keeping with the "abide"/"remain" doctrinal concept.

Had He said "He who believes", someone might be justified if they (despite all the rest of the Bible's testimony) construed that as referring to a one-time event, but that is not what Jesus is saying there.

Of course, "believes" is in the present tense, is ongoing and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away, like a seed that was sown in rocky, shallow soil and never took root. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith.. To abide or remain confirms that our faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.