26 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premillennialist that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or “Rev 20 says.” This is so frustrating because Rev 20 does not corroborate Rev 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise “what saith the Scripture.” The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premillennial interpretation of Rev 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys no other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premillennialism is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Rev 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Rev 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support all its main tenets. This is demonstrated by the fact, there is not one single second coming passage in the Bible that teaches 1000 years (or any significant period of time) follows this great glorious event where sin and death continue. Amils have a problem with, and are opposed to, this loose form of hermeneutics and questionable mode of exegesis.

(2) Premillennialism hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Rev 20 following Rev 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Rev 19. Rev 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Disprove the chronology between Rev 19 and 20 and Premillennialism falls apart.

(3) The detail Premillennialism attributes to Rev 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Rev 20 does not remotely say what Premillennialism assigns to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Rev 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

• Premillennialists present their future millennium to be a perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premillennialist millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. While they argue there will be more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons, the idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together, is suddenly and shockingly interrupted as the slaughter trucks roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting helpless animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the trucks speed off, the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem, they pointlessly slit the throats of innocent lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.
• Premillennialists would have us believe that billions of resurrected saints of God will be walking about on a millennial earth in their glorified bodies on planet earth interacting with billions of mortal humans (as the sand of the sea) who feign allegiance to Christ and will later arise to overrun a future millennium. Where does it teach this in Rev 20? Where does it teach this in God's Book? This is all pure fiction.
• Premillennialists have Jesus located on earth during their millennial kingdom. The only problem is: there is nowhere in Revelation 20 that teaches that. Premillennialists foist that upon the sacred text. For years, it has been the Premillennialism mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Rev 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
• Millions of humans in mortal bodies suddenly become sinless when they enter a future millennial earth. Sinners also miraculously become sinless outside of salvation, without the internal working of the Holy Spirit. Premillennialists allege that Christ is reigning in perfect righteousness without any form of resistance or rebellion. There is wholesale submission to His authority. All mankind experiences perfect peace. But all this changes in an instance when Satan pops his head up after 1000 years. Billions of wicked mortals as “the sand of the sea” who formerly swore allegiance to Christ and brought faithful religious worship to Him now turn their back on Him and become satanists. These must be the greatest company of hard- necked religious phonies ever to live. Of course, neither Rev 20 nor anywhere else in Scripture teaches such an age.
• Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the coming of Christ and the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” (that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night) “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is therefore no more salvation after that.
• They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching. They describe a millennial temple being built on the future earth, but where can this be found in Revelation 20? Where does Revelation teach the restarting of the blood sacrifice system? Multiple New Testament Scripture forbids such an absurdity. The book of Hebrews is very clear on this. Amils get what Jesus meant when He said "it is finished" on the cross. They believe that Jesus is the final sacrifice for sin.
• Premillennialists promote the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Rev 20 teaches no such thing. The whole New Testament narrative shows that racial favoritism has been brought to an end since the introduction of the new covenant.
• They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
• They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premillennialist millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together, is quickly broken as the slaughter trucks roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting helpless animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the trucks speed off, the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem, they pointlessly slit the throats of innocent lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.
• Premillennialists teach that there are mortal saints that surrender their lives to Christ during a future millennium, but these same brethren refuse to address the elephant in the room: if the earth does indeed flee away after Satan's little season, as Revelation 20 states, then there must be (of necessity) another rapture and glorification in order to rescue God's mortal people from the destruction of this current earth at the end. When you suggest this, Premillennialists get very uncomfortable. What is more, where do all the glorified saints go when the millennial earth eventually passes away as the text teaches?

 

[WPM]

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Rev 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. The coming of the Lord is shown throughout the Word of God to be the end. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection/judgment of mankind and the end. This all belongs to the one final all-consummating overall event. The second coming is shown to be the termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” This is described as the end (1 Cor 15:24)! It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”).

(5) Premillennialism is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. That is because, if they were to take many passages in Scripture literal it would forbid Premillennialism. They are therefore forced to spiritualize it away. They literalize many figurative passages in the Old Testament because they lack support for their belief in the New Testament. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

(7) Premillennialists ignore the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain their teaching. That is because the tenses expose Premillennialism. For example, Scripture shows that Jesus is reigning now over creation, His people and all His enemies. It is shown to be in the present ongoing tense. Most Premillennialists reject this as it messes with their belief-system. However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: “he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

Ephesians 1:20-22 tells us that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”

Hebrews 2:7-8 says, “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ‘Thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet. For in that ‘he put all in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible shows God’s people reigning now. Ephesians 2:5: “Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ (aorist active indicative) with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).”

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

Revelation 20:4-5 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

A final matter may prove our point, John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.” Our part in the first resurrection, shown throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5).

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present tense, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.” Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.” Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

(8) Premillennialism gives lip service to credible and consistent hermeneutics, yet, when you engage with them and show them the many inconsistencies in their position, they quickly and conveniently dismiss it. Premillennialists are so adamant in us interpreting “a thousand years” as a literal wooden 1000 years, after all it mentions years, yet when you ask them ‘how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?’ they suddenly see the figurative intent.

It doesn't add up or make sense. Premillennialists make it up as they go. It is like the mark of the beast, they are so insistent on it being hyper-literal yet when it comes to the mark of God, which is mentioned more times in Revelation, they suddenly and effortlessly apply a spiritual meaning to that. This is double-standards. But that is Premillennialism. Look at the climactic detail of 2 Peter 3 or Revelation 19. They localize the destruction of the current heavens, earth (and the works therein), and the elements in 2 Peter 3, even though a plain reading of the text shows it is comprehensive conflagration. The same with Revelation 19. The destruction of "all flesh" is explained away to allow the populating of a supposed future millennial earth with countless mortal sinners. Literal rules of interpretation are thrown out the window here in order to facilitate Premillennialism.

 

[WPM]

(9) Premillennialism lacks corroboration for all its fundamental beliefs on Revelation 20. Whether you look at the binding of Satan, the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming, the restoration of animal sacrifices in an alleged future millennium, a thousand years of peace, perfection and prosperity, two different judgment days, two different resurrection days, the rebellion of the wicked at the end of the millennium, these enjoy no other support in Scripture. I struggle with this, because the only way to authenticate and understand any doctrine is interpret it with other Scripture.

Premillennialists somehow extrapolates two distinct physical future resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+ out of Revelation 20. Where in Scripture does it even mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end? Nowhere! What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+? What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

They have absolutely nothing to reinforce their core beliefs. They interpret their opinion of Revelation 20 by their opinion of Revelation 20. This is ridiculous! This is one of many reasons why this non-corroborative doctrine should be rejected.

(10) Premillennialism invents an unscriptural three-age theological framework in order to justify their flawed belief system. This consists of “this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come.” The only problem is: this paradigm enjoys no scriptural support. Repeated Scripture, including the teaching of Christ, only recognizes two overriding ages – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” These terminologies are crucial when trying to understanding biblical eschatology. The dividing point between these two ages is continually shown in the sacred text to be the glorious final future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is described as “this age” is current, corrupt and temporal and “the age to come” is impending, perfect and eternal. This age is depicted as an “evil age” that is blighted with sin, sinners, death, decay and Satan. The age to come is depicted as a “righteous” age that is marked by perfection, eternal rest, total bliss, a renewed creation, a glorified existence and the restoration of all things. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there is no intervening time-period or temporal age in between “this age” and “the age to come.”

Because Scripture does not recognize a 3rd age, Premils invent a semi-glorious/semi-corrupt age that is half-liberated and half-bound. This undesirable mongrel earth is equally filled with righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, glorified saints and mortal rebels, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.

(11) Christ (who was "the truth"), Paul the Apostle (that Hebrew of the Hebrews) or none of the other NT writer taught a supposed future 1,000-year temporal visible earthly kingdom after the second coming and before the new heaven and the new earth. Their whole teaching depicted a current spiritual invisible heavenly eternal kingdom that was entered by faith. The final perfect visible manifestation of the kingdom is shown repeatedly in the NT to arrive when Jesus comes and destroys all enemies and banishes all imperfection forever. Premillennialism mistakenly advocates another additional imperfect kingdom age, which is in fact a rerun of our current day, to support their faulty theology.

(12) Because these thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture, apart from the highly symbolic Revelation 20, Premillennialism is forced to insert a thousand years in text after text where it doesn't exist, belong or fit. That is not right, and is called adding unto Scripture. Objective Bible students should struggle with building their whole end-time eschatology on the 3rd last chapter of the Bible, in a highly symbolic setting, especially when we are supposedly talking about the 2nd greatest age ever. The scriptural silence elsewhere is damning for the doctrine!

Adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32, Proverbs 30:5-6, Isaiah 8:20, Galatians 1:9 and Revelation 22:18).

(13) The future earth that Amillennialists and Premillennialists expect after Jesus comes could not be more diverse. Amillennialists believe the coming of the Lord will usher in the eternal state and witness the full manifestation of the glorified kingdom on a renewed earth (some Amils believe there will be a brand-new earth) in all its eternal perfection. They believe that a new earth will come-forth that is totally renewed. This earth will be restored to its pristine condition – being eternally freed from all the bondage of corruption. Every enemy of God’s perfect righteous order will be finally eliminated with the fiery regeneration of this earth and the final and complete destruction of the wicked at His appearing.

They hold that when man fell all creation fell with him, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him.

While Premillennialists give lip-service to such a state, their theology produces the opposite. They anticipate an age to come that is blighted with all the awful fruit of the Fall that this age suffers from. They believe the bondage of corruption continues on to their future Premillennialism earth. There will be sin and sinners, disease and decay, crying and dying, mortals and mortality, war and terror, Satan and his minions continuing on the earth after the second coming. What is more, their millennial earth regressively degenerates into turmoil, tears and tragedy. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase. In fact, the unregenerate overrun their age as the sand of the sea.

(14) Premillennialism is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premillennialists are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premillennialism portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premillennialism, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premillennialists are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premillennialism portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

(15) Another major error that Premillennialism makes is that it constantly presents the Old Testament as if the new covenant has never arrived. It is as if Jesus Christ has not come and fulfilled the old imperfect typical arrangement and introduced the new perfect eternal arrangement. It is as if the Old Testament promises have not been interpreted by the New Testament writers. What Premillennialists insist is literal, physical, visible and earthly, the New Testament writers interpret as figurative, spiritual, invisible and heavenly. What Premillennialists locate in their supposed future millennium, the New Testament writers locate in our current intra-Advent period.

(16) The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialists. They wrongly and strongly promote the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in their future millennial temple (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They also advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

This is despite the fact that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, and can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest instruction or allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. This will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premillennialism invention! Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It teaches: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

 

[WPM]

(17) Because Premillennialism lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premillennialism to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premillennialists also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

Premillennialism duplicates everything. They are seeing double. They have two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections." They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming).

(18) Premillennialists cannot even agree on the timing of the arrival of the new heavens and the new earth. They are split on whether Revelation 21 comes chronologically after Revelation 20 and therefore after the millennium kingdom and Satan’s little season in time or whether it is synonymous to that much-debated chapter and that the new heavens and new earth appears at the start of the millennium. This exposes another major weakness in the Premillennial camp: if they cannot even agree on something so simple and elementary as this in their main proof text, how can we trust their chronological approach to Revelation 19 and Revelation 20?

(19) Premillennialism invents a 3rd group of humans that Scripture knows nothing of, that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed. It is these mortals, they argue, who populate their alleged future millennial earth. The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous, those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).

(20) Premillennialism has an unhealthy obsessive focus on natural Israel, wrongly believing her to be God’s chosen people today under the new covenant. As a result, they have a mistaken fixation with natural Jerusalem in the Middle East, as if it is the epicenter of God’s workings with mankind on this earth and the place of His unconditional favor. This is wrong! They ignore much Scripture that shows that the fig tree has been cut down, the kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. Ancient Jerusalem and the temple therein were merely Old Testament imperfect shadows of the heavenly reality that was revealed at the first advent. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we have become one with spiritual believing Israel in the OT. It makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one new man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time!

(21) General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the quick (or living) and the dead,” “every man,” “every eye,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men everywhere,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race (or the full amount of all the wicked) are redefined and explained away to let Premillennialism fit. If one was to take a precise straightforward interpretation of these phrases, one could only come to conclusion that there are no exclusions here. This shows that the Premillennial boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

(22) Premillennialism takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premillennialism does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

In this doctrine: Premillennialists deny that Jesus is the first resurrection rather applying that to the believer’s resurrection in the future when Jesus comes again. That is nonsensical. The word first is therefore negated to suit bias teaching. Also, Scripture shows that the first earth with all its corruption is removed at the second coming. Premillennialists are forced to move that to after their supposed future millennium because it contradicts their theology.

Also, in Premillennialism theology, the last days (plural) are not the last days. There are other days that follow the last days. The last day (singular) is not the last day. There are other days that follow the last day. The last enemy is not the last enemy. There are more enemies that follow the last enemy. The last trumpet is not the last trumpet. There are other trumpets that follow the last trumpet.

(23) Premillennialism does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

(24) Premillennialists are quick to rubbish the Amillennialism interpretation of Revelation 20 that the lifting of the deception over the nations relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles in this current age. Yet, they are happy to promote the idea of billions of ungodly religious phonies, who have abode in the presence of the glorified Christ and the glorified saints, and have showed themselves to be the most deluded religious actors in history, stubbornly and relentlessly feigning allegiance to Christ throughout the Premillennialist future millennium, arguing that they will not sin or die for 1000 years, and yet at the first sight of their master Satan rise up in rebellion against Jesus and the Church? This they say will happen on a global scale. They then want to convince us that none of these billions are deceived! This is totally ridiculous! This is deception on a scale never seen before in history! It is unprecedented! Premillennialists support this circus and yet cannot seem to see the major contradiction in their own portrayal.

(25) Premillennialists have no answer to the climactic detail of “the day of the Lord” passages like 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3 in Scripture. To allow their beliefs, they normally reject the idea that “the day of the Lord” is a single day in time, and argue it is a literal 1000 years+ day. They do this with several climactic passages. The first problem is: Scripture does not teach that. The second problem is: they fail to see that any “day” in Scripture, regardless of how long it is, is always characterized (for its duration) by the actual detail (or description) attributed to it. In this case, their supposed future millennium is a day of ongoing destruction and desolation. What they also miss is that the day of the Lord “arrives as a thief in the night” (2 Peter 3:10) and brings "sudden destruction" from His appearance (1 Thessalonians 5:3), whereupon, the wicked "shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:3). This exposes their unobjective approach to the sacred text.

(26) Classic Premil was unknown to the early Church up until the 3rd century. Commodianus, who wrote between AD 251 and 258, is the first orthodox writer to clearly and unambiguously state that there will be mortal beings in a future millennium that will join in marriage and enjoy sexual relations, producing offspring. But importantly, he limits this reality to the righteous alone (those “who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist”). Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, whereupon he will use his baleful influence successfully on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270.

 

[Davy]

Don't be deceived brethren by the above FALSE posts against the Biblically written "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus Christ and His elect that only begins on the day of His future return (See Revelation 20 which is about Christ's future Millennium reign over the nations.)

Premill means exactly... what is written in The Bible about the "thousand years" period that starts immediately after Christ's future return.

Man's Amillennialism theory instead began to creep into the Christian Church in the 2nd century A.D. The 1st century Church fathers were all Premill believers, simply because that is the order of events actually written in The Bible. Origen at the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt was most likely the original founder of the false doctrine of Amillennialism, because Origen often 'spiritualized' literal events written in The Bible, turning literal Truths into allegories only. And he was ex-communicated for doing that. Origen's problem was his following Greek philosophy, which pagan philosophy was the majority of doctrines circulated around Alexandria at that time.

Most on man's false Amill theory are simply deceived, and don't actually study all their Bible, so they make easy targets by the occult pagans who well understand how Amill theory helps them to setup their future globalist one-world beast kingdom they are preparing for their 'lord', Satan himself.

I have even argued with Amill liars on this Forum that tried to claim some of the early 1st century Church fathers were Amillennialists when a look at their writings show they believed the Premill order of Christ's future 1,000 years reign that starts on the day of Christ's return.

 

[Davy]

Also Brethren in Christ...

Don't pay attention to any Amillennialist that tries to claim that all Premill believers are on man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory. If Amillennialists are confused about the origins of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory and attribute that false idea to Premill, then it shows they don't understand what The Bible teaches about at all.

The 1st century Church fathers believed in a Premill idea, which is the actual order of the written Bible Scripture. It means on the day of Christ's future return AFTER the tribulation, at that point Christ's LITERAL "thousand years" reign with His elect begins. Premill means understanding that "thousand years" as a LITERAL period, not an allegory like Origen and occultists try to claim.

Since the 1st century Church fathers held to a Premil belief, then how could they believe in a false Pre-trib Rapture theory, simply because the Pre-trib Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby?!?

I didn't know John Darby was around in the 1st century A.D. to preach that false Pre-trib Rapture Theory to the 1st century Church fathers; did you know that?? Yet that is exactly the STUPID idea that Amillennialist try to use against Premils, because they well know the 1st century Church fathers were all Premillennialists!

 

[WPM]

Don't be deceived brethren by the above FALSE posts against the Biblically written "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus Christ and His elect that only begins on the day of His future return (See Revelation 20 which is about Christ's future Millennium reign over the nations.)

Premill means exactly... what is written in The Bible about the "thousand years" period that starts immediately after Christ's future return.

Man's Amillennialism theory instead began to creep into the Christian Church in the 2nd century A.D. The 1st century Church fathers were all Premill believers, simply because that is the order of events actually written in The Bible. Origen at the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt was most likely the original founder of the false doctrine of Amillennialism, because Origen often 'spiritualized' literal events written in The Bible, turning literal Truths into allegories only. And he was ex-communicated for doing that. Origen's problem was his following Greek philosophy, which pagan philosophy was the majority of doctrines circulated around Alexandria at that time.

Most on man's false Amill theory are simply deceived, and don't actually study all their Bible, so they make easy targets by the occult pagans who well understand how Amill theory helps them to setup their future globalist one-world beast kingdom they are preparing for their 'lord', Satan himself.

I have even argued with Amill liars on this Forum that tried to claim some of the early 1st century Church fathers were Amillennialists when a look at their writings show they believed the Premill order of Christ's future 1,000 years reign that starts on the day of Christ's return.

You avoided every point above and resorted to your usual frustrated and petty name-calling. That is alone speaks volumes to the impotence of your position. When are you going to actually address Amil arguments that forbid Premil? You have been avoiding them for long enough.

You are happy to spiritualize "one hour" as a short period of time but are adamantly against spiritualizing "a thousand years" as a long period of time. Hmmmm!

 

[WPM]

Also Brethren in Christ...

Don't pay attention to any Amillennialist that tries to claim that all Premill believers are on man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory. If Amillennialists are confused about the origins of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory and attribute that false idea to Premill, then it shows they don't understand what The Bible teaches about at all.

The 1st century Church fathers believed in a Premill idea, which is the actual order of the written Bible Scripture. It means on the day of Christ's future return AFTER the tribulation, at that point Christ's LITERAL "thousand years" reign with His elect begins. Premill means understanding that "thousand years" as a LITERAL period, not an allegory like Origen and occultists try to claim.

Since the 1st century Church fathers held to a Premil belief, then how could they believe in a false Pre-trib Rapture theory, simply because the Pre-trib Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby?!?

I didn't know John Darby was around in the 1st century A.D. to preach that false Pre-trib Rapture Theory to the 1st century Church fathers; did you know that?? Yet that is exactly the STUPID idea that Amillennialist try to use against Premils, because they well know the 1st century Church fathers were all Premillennialists!

The first orthodox ECFs to (indeed) advocate key elements of modern-day beliefs came from Commodianus, Lactantius and Victorinus. But they did not bring their mellow form of Premil to the table until after AD 250. Think about that! That is over 220 years after the cross! All we had before that was Chiliasm, which was more akin to Amil, believing in a new perfect impending arrangement. Even then, Commodianus, Lactantius and Victorinus anticipated a milder and more palatable millennium than what Premils promote today. There is no elevation of ethnic Israel or reintroduction of the old covenant apparatus in their writing. That is not insignificant, because these are central tenets of modern-day Premil.

Commodianus was an African poet who wrote between AD 251 and 258. Lactantius was also an African writer who lived between AD 250 - 317. He based his Premillennial teaching upon the pagan Sibyl prophetesses. Any time he tries to justify Premillennialism he uses these pagan false prophetesses as his evidence, not Scripture. Notable, when he makes a fleeting and rare passing allusion to the scriptural prophets of old it is only to support these prophetesses, rather than the other way around. Contrary to what you imagine, Paul the Apostle never did that! Victorinus was the Bishop of Pettau, Upper Pannonia (modern Slovenia) and wrote mainly around AD 270.

 

[WPM]

Also Brethren in Christ...

Don't pay attention to any Amillennialist that tries to claim that all Premill believers are on man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory. If Amillennialists are confused about the origins of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory and attribute that false idea to Premill, then it shows they don't understand what The Bible teaches about at all.

The 1st century Church fathers believed in a Premill idea, which is the actual order of the written Bible Scripture. It means on the day of Christ's future return AFTER the tribulation, at that point Christ's LITERAL "thousand years" reign with His elect begins. Premill means understanding that "thousand years" as a LITERAL period, not an allegory like Origen and occultists try to claim.

Since the 1st century Church fathers held to a Premil belief, then how could they believe in a false Pre-trib Rapture theory, simply because the Pre-trib Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby?!?

I didn't know John Darby was around in the 1st century A.D. to preach that false Pre-trib Rapture Theory to the 1st century Church fathers; did you know that?? Yet that is exactly the STUPID idea that Amillennialist try to use against Premils, because they well know the 1st century Church fathers were all Premillennialists!

1. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described sin existing on a future millennial earth?
2. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described corruption existing on a future millennial earth?
3. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the wicked existing on a future millennial earth?
4. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described mortals existing on a future millennial earth?
5. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described decay existing on a future millennial earth?
6. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the curse existing on a future millennial earth?
7. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described Satan existing on a future earth?
8. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium which involved the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups as Premil does?
9. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system as Premil does?
10. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come as Premil does?
11. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
12. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
13. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?
14. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that taught that Christ would be reigning in earthly Jerusalem over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne as Premil does?

 

[Davy]

You avoided every point above and resorted to your usual frustrated and petty name-calling. That is alone speaks volumes to the impotence of your position. When are you going to actually address Amil arguments that forbid Premil? You have been avoiding them for long enough.

You are happy to spiritualize "one hour" as a short period of time but are adamantly against spiritualizing "a thousand years" as a long period of time. Hmmmm!

Why should I want to continue your 'advertising' of a false doctrine by responding to just any little point you 'try'... to bring up as evidence against Premil? To know the Truth all one need do is simply read their Bible, and not just the Revelation 20 Chapter either. Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that begins at His future coming is pointed to in many other Bible Scriptures besides Rev.20, just not using that specific "thousand years" term.


One of the things NOT written in God's Word, which deceived followers of Amill believe, is the destruction of all wicked on the day of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord". That includes 'their wrong belief' that day of Christ's coming also is the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20, which assigns the wicked, hell, and death all into the "lake of fire". That is the ONLY way that the time of God's new heavens and a new earth time can manifest, with all the wicked, and hell, and even the concept death, destroyed.

The following is just one Bible Scripture, a major one, that reveals not all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That above Bible Scripture is for AFTER... Christ has returned to the Mount of Olives with all His saints, on the last day of this world, called the "day of the Lord". That's how that Zechariah 14 Chapter starts out. The Zechariah 14:8 verse even reveals in that time right after Christ's return, God's River of the Waters of Life will be there manifested on earth, even while those UNSAVED of the nations that came against Jerusalem will still be there!

Zech 14:7-9
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Brethren, do you recall what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse that no man knows the day or hour of His future coming, but The Father only? That's what that above Zechariah 14:7 is referring to.

That Zechariah 14:8 verse is pointing to God's River of Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47. Per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, the Tree of Life is manifested along with that River of the Waters of Life. So that proves beyond all... doubt that these Zechariah 14 events are for immediately AFTER Christ's future return after having gathered His Church on the last day of this world. Even Revelation 22:14-15 reveals the wicked still existing outside the gates of the "beloved city" at that time.

That Zechariah 14 Scripture is NOT... God's new heavens and a new earth time, simply because God's Great White Throne Judgment that determines who will perish in the "lake of fire" must occur first so that ONLY the SAVED will exist in God's Eternity.

So Brethren in Christ, don't fall for the OP's crying excuses like, "I used to believe Premil, but then I saw the light" type of emotional ploy. That's all it is, just a PLOY to deceive you using emotional sensationalism. Stick to what God's Word as written reveals.

And if you want yet another proof the wicked will still be here after Christ's future coming, look at the Revelation 3:9 verse where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make His greatest enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect. That will never happen during this present world time. That is yet another Biblical pointer to Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why should I want to continue your 'advertising' of a false doctrine by responding to just any little point you 'try'... to bring up as evidence against Premil? To know the Truth all one need do is simply read their Bible, and not just the Revelation 20 Chapter either. Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that begins at His future coming is pointed to in many other Bible Scriptures besides Rev.20, just not using that specific "thousand years" term.


One of the things NOT written in God's Word, which deceived followers of Amill believe, is the destruction of all wicked on the day of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord". That includes 'their wrong belief' that day of Christ's coming also is the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20, which assigns the wicked, hell, and death all into the "lake of fire". That is the ONLY way that the time of God's new heavens and a new earth time can manifest, with all the wicked, and hell, and even the concept death, destroyed.

The following is just one Bible Scripture, a major one, that reveals not all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That above Bible Scripture is for AFTER... Christ has returned to the Mount of Olives with all His saints, on the last day of this world, called the "day of the Lord". That's how that Zechariah 14 Chapter starts out. The Zechariah 14:8 verse even reveals in that time right after Christ's return, God's River of the Waters of Life will be there manifested on earth, even while those UNSAVED of the nations that came against Jerusalem will still be there!

Zech 14:7-9
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Brethren, do you recall what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse that no man knows the day or hour of His future coming, but The Father only? That's what that above Zechariah 14:7 is referring to.

That Zechariah 14:8 verse is pointing to God's River of Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47. Per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, the Tree of Life is manifested along with that River of the Waters of Life. So that proves beyond all... doubt that these Zechariah 14 events are for immediately AFTER Christ's future return after having gathered His Church on the last day of this world. Even Revelation 22:14-15 reveals the wicked still existing outside the gates of the "beloved city" at that time.

That Zechariah 14 Scripture is NOT... God's new heavens and a new earth time, simply because God's Great White Throne Judgment that determines who will perish in the "lake of fire" must occur first so that ONLY the SAVED will exist in God's Eternity.

So Brethren in Christ, don't fall for the OP's crying excuses like, "I used to believe Premil, but then I saw the light" type of emotional ploy. That's all it is, just a PLOY to deceive you using emotional sensationalism. Stick to what God's Word as written reveals.

And if you want yet another proof the wicked will still be here after Christ's future coming, look at the Revelation 3:9 verse where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make His greatest enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect. That will never happen during this present world time. That is yet another Biblical pointer to Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved.

Even so, New Testament apostle Paul tells us all unbelievers will be destroyed at the return of Christ.
Paul and the apostles like Peter teach this.
They should know being close to the Son of God Christ.

Christ teaches this in the parable of the tares at the harvest.
So, we have Christ, Paul Peter teaching the sudden destruction of all the wicked on the great Day of the Lord.
Malachi 4 in the OC teaches this also.

The Great Day of God​

1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

 

[Scott Downey]

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Perhaps the wrong emphasis has been placed on how this scripture is read!

An assumption is being made that all of the people of these nations went to fight God, and some wicked rebels survived.

Everyone who is left of all the nations, are the born of God Christian believers in Christ.
Not everyone of all those nations went into battle to fight against the Lord
Their relatives, fellow citizens of those nations did, but they did not. God redeemed them by the Blood of Christ

Rev says

Worthy Is the Lamb​

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

 

[Davy]

1. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described sin existing on a future millennial earth?
2. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described corruption existing on a future millennial earth?
3. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the wicked existing on a future millennial earth?
4. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described mortals existing on a future millennial earth?
5. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described decay existing on a future millennial earth?
6. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the curse existing on a future millennial earth?
7. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described Satan existing on a future earth?
8. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium which involved the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups as Premil does?
9. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system as Premil does?
10. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come as Premil does?
11. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
12. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
13. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?
14. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that taught that Christ would be reigning in earthly Jerusalem over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne as Premil does?

I got an easier challenge for YOU.

Let's see YOU... quote ONLY 1st century Church fathers that showed belief on man's false Amil theory. And FYI, 1st century does NOT mean past the year 100 A.D.

 

[WPM]

One of the things NOT written in God's Word, which deceived followers of Amill believe, is the destruction of all wicked on the day of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord". That includes 'their wrong belief' that day of Christ's coming also is the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20, which assigns the wicked, hell, and death all into the "lake of fire". That is the ONLY way that the time of God's new heavens and a new earth time can manifest, with all the wicked, and hell, and even the concept death, destroyed.

The following is just one Bible Scripture, a major one, that reveals not all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That above Bible Scripture is for AFTER... Christ has returned to the Mount of Olives with all His saints, on the last day of this world, called the "day of the Lord". That's how that Zechariah 14 Chapter starts out. The Zechariah 14:8 verse even reveals in that time right after Christ's return, God's River of the Waters of Life will be there manifested on earth, even while those UNSAVED of the nations that came against Jerusalem will still be there!

Zech 14:7-9
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Brethren, do you recall what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse that no man knows the day or hour of His future coming, but The Father only? That's what that above Zechariah 14:7 is referring to.

That Zechariah 14:8 verse is pointing to God's River of Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47. Per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, the Tree of Life is manifested along with that River of the Waters of Life. So that proves beyond all... doubt that these Zechariah 14 events are for immediately AFTER Christ's future return after having gathered His Church on the last day of this world. Even Revelation 22:14-15 reveals the wicked still existing outside the gates of the "beloved city" at that time.

That Zechariah 14 Scripture is NOT... God's new heavens and a new earth time, simply because God's Great White Throne Judgment that determines who will perish in the "lake of fire" must occur first so that ONLY the SAVED will exist in God's Eternity.

So Brethren in Christ, don't fall for the OP's crying excuses like, "I used to believe Premil, but then I saw the light" type of emotional ploy. That's all it is, just a PLOY to deceive you using emotional sensationalism. Stick to what God's Word as written reveals.

And if you want yet another proof the wicked will still be here after Christ's future coming, look at the Revelation 3:9 verse where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make His greatest enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect. That will never happen during this present world time. That is yet another Biblical pointer to Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved.

Where is a "millennial kingdom" mentioned here? You have to add into unto the biblical texts.

There is rarely a theological argument presented by Premils explaining their position on Revelation 20 that does not submit Zechariah 14 as supporting evidence for their position. Premils talk as if these two texts fit together neatly to support their viewpoint. The only problem is, careful study of both will find there is no correlation between the detail in Zechariah 14 and that in Revelation 20. Trying to associate one with the other is like putting a square peg into a round whole. The detail is completely different.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now worship God in spirit and in truth John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God.

 

[WPM]

Why should I want to continue your 'advertising' of a false doctrine by responding to just any little point you 'try'... to bring up as evidence against Premil? To know the Truth all one need do is simply read their Bible, and not just the Revelation 20 Chapter either. Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that begins at His future coming is pointed to in many other Bible Scriptures besides Rev.20, just not using that specific "thousand years" term.


One of the things NOT written in God's Word, which deceived followers of Amill believe, is the destruction of all wicked on the day of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord". That includes 'their wrong belief' that day of Christ's coming also is the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20, which assigns the wicked, hell, and death all into the "lake of fire". That is the ONLY way that the time of God's new heavens and a new earth time can manifest, with all the wicked, and hell, and even the concept death, destroyed.

The following is just one Bible Scripture, a major one, that reveals not all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That above Bible Scripture is for AFTER... Christ has returned to the Mount of Olives with all His saints, on the last day of this world, called the "day of the Lord". That's how that Zechariah 14 Chapter starts out. The Zechariah 14:8 verse even reveals in that time right after Christ's return, God's River of the Waters of Life will be there manifested on earth, even while those UNSAVED of the nations that came against Jerusalem will still be there!

Zech 14:7-9
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Brethren, do you recall what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse that no man knows the day or hour of His future coming, but The Father only? That's what that above Zechariah 14:7 is referring to.

That Zechariah 14:8 verse is pointing to God's River of Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47. Per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, the Tree of Life is manifested along with that River of the Waters of Life. So that proves beyond all... doubt that these Zechariah 14 events are for immediately AFTER Christ's future return after having gathered His Church on the last day of this world. Even Revelation 22:14-15 reveals the wicked still existing outside the gates of the "beloved city" at that time.

That Zechariah 14 Scripture is NOT... God's new heavens and a new earth time, simply because God's Great White Throne Judgment that determines who will perish in the "lake of fire" must occur first so that ONLY the SAVED will exist in God's Eternity.

So Brethren in Christ, don't fall for the OP's crying excuses like, "I used to believe Premil, but then I saw the light" type of emotional ploy. That's all it is, just a PLOY to deceive you using emotional sensationalism. Stick to what God's Word as written reveals.

And if you want yet another proof the wicked will still be here after Christ's future coming, look at the Revelation 3:9 verse where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make His greatest enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect. That will never happen during this present world time. That is yet another Biblical pointer to Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved.

Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

 

[WPM]

I got an easier challenge for YOU.

Let's see YOU... quote ONLY 1st century Church fathers that showed belief on man's false Amil theory. And FYI, 1st century does NOT mean past the year 100 A.D.

More avoidance. You have obviously not done your research, and do not know what you are talking about. This is so typical of Premils when it comes to the ECFs. They repeat what they have been taught, not what they have discovered, and what is actually factual.

As you read the early Christian writers you quickly see that they had a big God and a small devil. They are constantly emphasising a victorious Christ and a defeated devil. This is obviously in keeping with the New Testament narrative. They portrayed Satan as conquered, bound, subdued and subjugated.

In the modern millennial debate regarding the power and influence of Satan today, Premils, whether they intend it or not, always seem to be highlighting the clout of the devil on this earth and elevating the scope of his influence. They tend to make Satan bigger than he is. They miss the curtailment upon our arch-enemy and fail to grasp the binding that allowed the Gentiles to come to Christ.

Amils on the other hand always seem to be promoting the clout of Christ and the injury that Satan has sustained since the cross. They believe that Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection.

The early church fathers borrowed certain Old Testament Scriptures to support their view on the binding of Satan relating to the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. They then linked that to Christ overcoming sin, death, Hades and Satan. Three of the most common passages used were Job 41:1-5, Psalm 91:13 and Isaiah 45:1-3.

It is important for us living in a day of firmly established and maturely developed doctrine not to foist our understanding of Scripture or of terminologies automatically onto the teachings of the early church fathers. We need to grasp what they were saying and why they were using such arguments/Scriptures in order to piece together their theology. If we don’t do this, we will quickly become confused with the early writers and end up bringing our own understanding to the table.

Unravelling history is not manipulating the ancient writings to support our view-point of Scripture, but, rather, letting the ancient writers speak and explain for themselves what they held and mean.

Modern Bible students will be amazed at the remarkable uniformity of beliefs of early Chiliasm and early Amillennialism in regard to the defeat of Satan 2000 years ago. Many of their views are similar. They are certainly starkly different from modern-day Premillennialism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't be deceived brethren by the above FALSE posts against the Biblically written "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus Christ and His elect that only begins on the day of His future return (See Revelation 20 which is about Christ's future Millennium reign over the nations.)

Premill means exactly... what is written in The Bible about the "thousand years" period that starts immediately after Christ's future return.

Man's Amillennialism theory instead began to creep into the Christian Church in the 2nd century A.D. The 1st century Church fathers were all Premill believers, simply because that is the order of events actually written in The Bible. Origen at the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt was most likely the original founder of the false doctrine of Amillennialism, because Origen often 'spiritualized' literal events written in The Bible, turning literal Truths into allegories only. And he was ex-communicated for doing that. Origen's problem was his following Greek philosophy, which pagan philosophy was the majority of doctrines circulated around Alexandria at that time.

Most on man's false Amill theory are simply deceived, and don't actually study all their Bible, so they make easy targets by the occult pagans who well understand how Amill theory helps them to setup their future globalist one-world beast kingdom they are preparing for their 'lord', Satan himself.

I have even argued with Amill liars on this Forum that tried to claim some of the early 1st century Church fathers were Amillennialists when a look at their writings show they believed the Premill order of Christ's future 1,000 years reign that starts on the day of Christ's return.

LOL. Nothing but made up lies that you can't back up. Notice, everyone, how Davy does not even attempt to refute even one of the points made by WPM. He tries to distract from the topic with his personal insults and unfounded lies about the origin of Amillennialism. He knows he can't refute it with scripture, so he resorts to that instead. His childishness adds nothing of substance to this forum and everyone can see that.

No one respects you, Davy. Your messages to the brethren are laughed at by everyone because no one respects you. You argue angrily with everyone who disagrees with anything you believe in, which would be everyone here on this forum. It's a joke.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I got an easier challenge for YOU.

Let's see YOU... quote ONLY 1st century Church fathers that showed belief on man's false Amil theory. And FYI, 1st century does NOT mean past the year 100 A.D.

You think you can just ignore his requests and demand that he answer your request? Is this your way of saying that you have no answer to any of his requests? Apparently so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Also Brethren in Christ...

Who are the Brethren in Christ who you imagine care at all about anything you have to say? Not only do you insult all Amills here but you also insult all Premills whenever they disagree with anything you believe in. So, there is NO ONE here who cares what you think.

Don't pay attention to any Amillennialist that tries to claim that all Premill believers are on man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory. If Amillennialists are confused about the origins of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory and attribute that false idea to Premill, then it shows they don't understand what The Bible teaches about at all.

What Amill has ever claimed that all Premills believe in pre-trib? None have. You are paranoid.

 

[Davy]

Where is a "millennial kingdom" mentioned here? You have to add into unto the biblical texts.

There is rarely a theological argument presented by Premils explaining their position on Revelation 20 that does not submit Zechariah 14 as supporting evidence for their position. Premils talk as if these two texts fit together neatly to support their viewpoint. The only problem is, careful study of both will find there is no correlation between the detail in Zechariah 14 and that in Revelation 20. Trying to associate one with the other is like putting a square peg into a round whole. The detail is completely different.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now worship God in spirit and in truth John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God.

Brethren in Christ:

Beware of vain strategies like the above.

The Zechariah 14 Scripture as a witness proving the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 will be a LITERAL period is not the ONLY Bible Scripture that points to that future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect. WPM of course knows this, but he doesn't want you... to know about it.

Like God's Word says, let every word be confirmed by at least 2 witnesses, and I have well done that about the future "thousand years" LITERL reign by Lord Jesus that begins on the day of His future coming:

Zechariah 14
Revelation 3:9
Revelation 22:14-15
Isaiah 24:19-23
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Psalms 2
1 Corinthians 5:5
Isaiah 2:4-21

And of course, the Revelation 20 Chapter which literally... declares Christ's future reign over His enemies, they're being made His footstool, will be a literal "thousand years" period. And Jesus said His elect overcomers will reign over those unsaved nations with Him, with His "rod of iron".