Paul differs.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
The Galatian Church was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.
22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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Paul differs.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
The Galatian Church was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.
Keraz
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What gives; is that the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations ARE the true Israel, the ones that Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24
What if WE are Israelites?
Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9 The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10
Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26, 1 Peter 2:9-10
Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?
The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His people when they go back into the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27, Revelation 7:1-14
The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite {Christian] and Gentile [non Christian] nations. The detailed prophesies of what will happen, then His people’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 49:8
The truth about the Lord’s plan for all who qualify to be Israelite’s is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people, all faithful Christian believers who will live in His Land, as He originally intended. Isaiah 62:1-5, Amos 9:13-15 His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and the Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8
Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you came. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.
Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.
When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to God’s holy people, who are now every faithful Christian believer: scattered among every race nation and language, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is: the short period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come.
It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirm that their fulfilment is imminent.
The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of all His people into their heritage of the holy Land.
Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:7, Romans 9:24-26, +
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Keraz
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The people in Galatia at that time were a Celtic race, who are descendants of the Northern ten tribes of Israel.
Proved by the historical record and by language similarities to Hebrew. Paul could understand their speech. Ezekiel also:
Ezekiel 3:4-6 I am not sending you to a people whose speech is hard and strange, but to the House of Israel....
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, it indicates that someone 100 years old would be considered a child. That would be the literal interpretation. You're saying young instead of a child, so you're not taking it literally that a 100 year old would be considered a child. Young compared to some others is not the same as being a child.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I would think a section in Thessalonians and Corinthians that are relevant to the matter.
1 Thess 4:15-17,
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This says we will meet Jesus in the air. It does not say he will come to earth at this time. Where does this fit in with the chronology of the events in Revelation?
1 Cor 15:51-53,
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
What part of Revelation covers this rather unique event?
There is actually another section in the Epistles that seems out of place with events in Revelation.
Col 3:4,
When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Jesus doesn't make his appearance on earth until the 19th chapter. The white horse in Rev 6:2 is a false Messiah who Jesus warned would came in the end (Matt 24:11 & 24). We don't see Jesus actually coming to earth until that 19th chapter, and we'll appear with him in glory. In other words, both he and us, having met in the air, will arrive on the earth at the same time.
Rev 19:14,
And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jesus will be coming with an army. Who are those armies? Are Christians then the ones appearing with him in glory, especially when Thessalonians informed us that we would meet him in the air before he comes to the earth? Could that be why Romans 5:9 tells us we are saved from the wrath to come?
In any case, the verses in Paul's epistles must align with those in Revelation, so i was just wondering where you see them fitting in.
I think it also very important to understand the mystery that was hid in God until He revealed it to Paul.
Eph 3:3-6,
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Verse 5 is clear that the truth of verse 6 was not known in the OT. God dealt with Israel in the OT. The Gentiles were with God and without hope at that time (Eph 2:12). A Gentile could become a proselyte, but that is another thing altogether. As verse 6 clearly states, the truth that the Gentiles would become fellow heirs and of the same body was kept secret throughout the entire OT. It was critically important for God to keep this secret to himself.4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
1 Cor 2:7-8,
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Had the princes of this world know the mystery, they would not have crucified Jesus. There is a good reason for that, but for now it's just important that nobody, but nobody knew about it before God revealed it to Paul.8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I would suggest that the Revelation has nothing whatsoever to do with the Christian church. Instead it is the final fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel in the OT. God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a physical kingdom. God didn't tell Abraham to look up into the heavens and that it would be his inheritance. He told him to look at the land. Nothing whatsoever even suggesting it would be some "spiritual" inheritance. That obviously didn't happen when Jesus made his first appearance. Enter stage right the Revelation. That is when the promise of a physical kingdom will receive it's complete fulfillment. Since the Christian church is decidedly not mentioned in the OT (the mystery), it also has nothing to do with Revelation. I submit that the church will have been gathered together with the Lord in the air, some time before any of the events of Revelation occur.
I know it talks about the "seven churches" in Revelation, but the word "church" is the Greek word "ekklesia" and means and assembly of any sort, not just a Christian "church." There is even a riotous mob in Acts that is called an "ekklesia." Besides a few of the "churches" in Revelation didn't exist when John wrote, so he was not writing to an already established church in those cases. Also, it is important to notice all the references those 7 letters make to the OT. In general, as I recall, there are as many references to the OT in Revelation than the entire NT put together. Revelation is chock full of references to the OT. Remember, the Christian church was nowhere to be found in the OT, so none of those references can refer to Christians. The Chrisitan church at that time was a secret that only God knew.
In general, God spoke to different peoples at different times. He said things to one people that are often radically different, indeed, totally opposite, to what he said to another people. To whom God spoke as well as when He spoke it are critical if we want to rightly divide the word of truth.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
All people from all-time. That lines up with Acts 17:30-31 which says a day has been set when He will judge "all people everywhere"/"everyone" in the world.
The Greek word translated as "nations" there is "ethnos" and that can also mean people in general. It's clearly not talking about nations being judged in that passage, so a better translation of the word "ethnos" in this case is people.
The dead would be resurrected first, of course, you silly goose.
That is all incomprehensible nonsense that can't be supported by scripture.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Changing scrpiture means to change the meaning of scripture. Obviously, the Jerusalem that will exist when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in will be the new Jerusalem. So, I'm not changing scripture, I'm interpreting it in a way that lines up with the rest of scripture.
There isn't more than one new heavens and new earth, so you are completely wrong about that. You apparently believe in two new heavens and two new earths, but that is obviously nonsense. Almost everything you say is nonsense. I have to wonder if you are even for real or just putting us all on.
Spiritual Israelite
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
When Jesus ascended into heaven 10 days before Pentecost, an angel told the disciples that Jesus would return. I would think it odd to take this to mean he'd return anywhere but from whence he was, i.e., the earth.
Rev 19:19,
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
We see the beast and the kings of the earth fighting Jesus and his armies. I don't think they fought on a battleground that was anywhere but the earth.
No need to spiritualize any of this. The literal events of Revelation are in perfect accord with God's promise to Israel of a kingdom in a land that Abraham could see with his eyes, i.e., a physical kingdom.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
If we begin to spiritualize scripture, it is dangerously close to treading on Gnostic ground. Not saying you're a Gnostic, but that is what they did.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.
The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.
If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:
"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."
This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.
Thus we see:
Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:
Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.
There is none greater.
We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:
Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.
If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.
His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Such as:
Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Additional promissory clauses in...:
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.
But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...
Who is not in Christ.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Where does the mystery that God kept secret until he revealed it to Paul (Eph 3:19, et.al) fit in?
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Way out of context. It's never good to build an entire doctrine on one isolated verse while ignoring the context as well as the overall message of scripture.
If we're going to spiritualize the scriptures, the sky is the limit as to what doctrines we can conjure up. It's Gnosticism at it's finest to do so.
Ephesians 3:6
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Along with all other promises, fulfilled, realized, actualized, and accomplished in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:20)
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Christ speaking in the gospel that the Dispensationalists say was written solely to the Jews – Matthew – confirms how the term ekklesia was related to the gathering of God’s people in His day, rather than some post-Pentecost New Testament period of time, as some would try and argue. Jesus said, in Matthew 18:15-17, “if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the ekklesia: but if he neglect to hear the church [Gr. ekklesia], let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”
Here, in this supposed Jewish gospel, the disciples are carefully counseled in the proper way to deal with matters of discipline within the local assembly. Expressly, if the transgressor does not receive the private admonition from a brother, with a witness, or from the ruling elders, the issue should be brought before ‘the congregation’ of God’s people – the ekklesia – for public exposure. This is historically before Pentecost, where Dispensationalists suggest “the Church” began.
Stephen goes back even further. He takes us back to ancient Israel in the wilderness. He taught in Acts 7:36-38, “he (Moses) had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church [Gr. ekklesia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.”
Stephen classifies Old Testament Israel in this text as the ekklesia (or Church or assembly or congregation). This correlates with our previous findings. No one could surely deny this. This passage shows the existence of the Church long before Pentecost. Nothing could be clearer. To deny that is to fight with Scripture.
Speaking on Acts 7:36-38, Peter Ditzel writes: “Like the New Testament ekklēsia that God called out of this world of sin, God called Israel out of Egypt. In a physical, typological way, Israel was God’s special people, physically assembled before Him. In those places in the Old Testament where English versions refer to Israel as an assembly or a congregation, the Greek Septuagint uses the word ekklēsia” (What is the relationship between the Old Covenant assembly of Israel and the New Covenant assembly of believers?).
The Roman Catholic Church was the first to change the meaning of ekklesia from the congregation of God’s people to a religious institution of man replacing physical Israel. This was highly advantageous in reinforcing its apostate religious system. It allowed its clergy to lord over the people. This strategy likewise rubber stamped the whole foundation of its global religious system, its “Holy” Roman Empire, its papal state and its false teaching. But this construal was totally out of kilter with the common usage of the word in ancient times.
William Tyndale recognized this when translating his early English Bible. Despite intense pressure from the Roman Catholic powers that be, he stood strong on his interpretation, suitably and consistently translating ekklesia as congregation. The Coverdale Bible (1535), The Great Bible (1540), Matthew Bible (1549) and The Bishops Bible (1568) all followed suit, using the word “congregation” to describe God’s New Testament people.
The writer of the Hebrews also quotes and applies the word ekklesia, as it literally reads in Psalm 22:22 in the Greek Septuagint, to the Old Testament saints, saying: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church [Gr. ekklesia] will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:12).
Psalm 22:22 reads, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”
This quote is taken directly from the Greek Septuagint, the Bible that was used by Jesus, and Paul, and the disciples in the first century AD. It proves that the ekklesia (the Church) was alive, kicking, and written about throughout the Old Testament. Wherever people of faith are found or written about in history, the “Church” (ekklesia) is revealed. Dr. Michael Milton (President, Reformed Theological Seminary) tells us that “Psalm 22 [verse 22] uses the Hebrew word qahal for congregation … This same verse appears in Hebrews … the Holy Spirit has replaced qahal with ecclesia” (Engrafted, Not Replaced).
Just like with Israel in the Old Testament, the New Testament assembly has a visible and an invisible aspect. Those who profess a faith in Christ, and participate in Christian worship, are recognized as the outward visible congregation, but only those who have a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are recognized as being part of the true invisible Church – that which Christ sees and knows – His redeemed. The visible congregation are those who are typically outwardly committed to the Christian faith, whereas, the redeemed invisible congregation are those that have “passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).
When Jesus states in Matthew 16:18, “I will build my church [Gr. ekklesia]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” He is only referring to the elect of God. He is describing the faithful remnant that have entered into spiritual union with God. This is the invisible ekklesia.
The Church describes those who he has redeemed with his own precious blood. It describes all those that have a personal relationship with Christ! Paul instructs the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:28: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church [Gr. ekklesia] of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
The visible ekklesia is that which gives outward adherence to the Lord and which congregates together in public worship. For example, we see the local churches in Asia Minor mentioned in Revelation chapter 2 and 3. These were local congregations that evidently included believers and unbelievers. We know that because the Lord exposed those that were playing at it in these gatherings. There was “the church [Gr. ekklesia] of Ephesus” (Rev 2:1-7), “the church [Gr. ekklesia] in Smyrna” (Rev 2:8-11), “the church [Gr. ekklesia] in Pergamos” (Rev 2:12-17), “the church [Gr. ekklesia] in Thyatira” (Rev 2:18-29), “the church [Gr. ekklesia] in Sardis” (Rev 3:1-6), “the church [Gr. ekklesia] in Philadelphia” (Rev 3:7-13) and “the church [Gr. ekklesia] of the Laodiceans” (Rev 3:14-22). This was the visible outward face of the Church, but it did not denote the true elect ekklesia of God who existed within those congregation.
Yeah, I just don’t have time for this kind of….it just seems silly to me. Sorry, I just don’t find this kind of argument to be of any real importance. Sorry.
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