22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

Hello! The building of the Church has been ongoing since the Garden. The ekklesia can be found in the OT and the NT. There is nothing you can do with that apart from reject the biblical evidence. That is what you do with each conclusive passage presented to you which exposes your theology.

The term ekklesia has more than one definition, which depends on the context.

The saved saints under the Mosaic covenant were simply the assembly of God of that day. Also, the kingdom which was repeatedly promised to the remnant of Israel developed into the New Testament gathering.

Negative. Those who followed Moses out into the desert were called "ekklesia", not because they were believers, but because they came out of Egypt.

Don't confuse or conflate the two meanings.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where did the name Israel come from?

Many Christians seem to conveniently overlook the fact that the origin of the name “Israel” is very much spiritual. It refers to the notable encounter Jacob had with God at Peniel and the spiritual transformation that resulted. It was there that Jacob wrestled with God until he was blessed. This incident caused his name to be changed from Jacob to Israel. We should therefore remember that the true and primary meaning of the word Israel refers to a spiritual experience.

Negative. God changed Jacob's name to Israel in order to indicate HIS personal, spiritual experience. The Bible never applies this name to anyone else who also had a spiritual experience.

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people . . . ."

No such thing as "true Israel." The term refers to the man, or it refers to the nation that was born of him. That's it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Bible says we part of the citizenship of Israel. You admit that. Which one - ethnic or spiritual?

It is time to cough up or shut up. You choose!

I did not say that we are part of the citizenship of Israel.

 

[Keraz]

You can use whatever terms you want to use, but the Bible doesn't speak about true Israelites. Gentile Christians are NOT spiritual Israelites because such a thing doesn't exist.

We see in each of the seven Church's of Revelation 2 and 3, the Overcomers. THEY are given the right to the Tree of Life, They will receive the hidden manna, They will have their names in the Book of Life, etc.
The word 'Israelite' literally means an overcomer for God.
Spiritual means; not physically apparent, or an inner state of being.

So people who overcome this world by their belief in God and their good works, are Spiritual Israelites.

The problem of the rejection of this truth, arises because so many Christians have been taught that the Jewish people will eventually come to accept Jesus and will be redeemed when He Returns. While the Church sits in heaven, strumming harps.
This belief is total nonsense and is never Prophesied to happen, we must endure until the end.

It the thread ' National Covenant', I have posted some of the Bible Prophesies that plainly state how the Jewish State of Israel will be virtually destroyed when the Lord strikes them on His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ephesians 2:14 makes clear: “For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.”

What parties were divided with a wall?

According to the statutes of the commonwealth of Israel, Gentiles were not allowed to go beyond a particular wall. Refer to The Acts of the Apostles 21:27-29 for instance




Through Calvary, the believing Gentile has been brought into a new dominion and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into:

· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world

This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ.

I disagree. The laws of the commonwealth disallowed the Gentiles from entering into the temple complex. The true source of Jew/Gentile unity is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather than gaining access to God via the Jewish temple, a place forbidden to a Gentile by law, the Gentiles gain access to God via his Spirit as Paul plainly says.

 

[WPM]

The term ekklesia has more than one definition, which depends on the context.


Negative. Those who followed Moses out into the desert were called "ekklesia", not because they were believers, but because they came out of Egypt.

Don't confuse or conflate the two meanings.

That is ridiculous and butchers the inspired text. It exposed the bias and ad-hoc way Premils approach biblical terms. You explain away and reject anything that exposes Premil. The consistent harmonious meaning of the ekklesia is rejected yet you deny remnant theology, which shows a true trans-national Israel throughout the generations.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have showed you and you have rejected the scriptural texts. You have to. The fact is: we are the true children of Abraham, not ethnic Israel. We are the children of promise, not ethnic Israel. We are true Israeli citizens, not ethnic Israel. We are the circumcision, not ethnic Israel. We are the spiritual Jews, not ethnic Israel.

Neither are we spiritual Israel, which is a concept foreign to the Bible.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We see in each of the seven Church's of Revelation 2 and 3, the Overcomers. THEY are given the right to the Tree of Life, They will receive the hidden manna, They will have their names in the Book of Life, etc.
The word 'Israelite' literally means an overcomer for God.
Spiritual means; not physically apparent, or an inner state of being.

So people who overcome this world by their belief in God and their good works, are Spiritual Israelites.

The problem of the rejection of this truth, arises because so many Christians have been taught that the Jewish people will eventually come to accept Jesus and will be redeemed when He Returns. While the Church sits in heaven, strumming harps.
This belief is total nonsense and is never Prophesied to happen, we must endure until the end.

It the thread ' National Covenant', I have posted some of the Bible Prophesies that plainly state how the Jewish State of Israel will be virtually destroyed when the Lord strikes them on His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

God made a promise to ethnic Israel, which has yet to be kept.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I read it in my own language. What you are really arguing is that it has been mistranslated and can only be understood in Hebrew. I don’t believe that.
I HAVE often thought, here or there, that a certain word might have been translated better, but I don’t think that whatever seems to not fit with my current understanding must mean the opposite of what it says in my language. I instead think my current understanding is not complete.

Interesting that some believe that a hundred years old is living forever. :)

 

[WPM]

According to the statutes of the commonwealth of Israel, Gentiles were not allowed to go beyond a particular wall. Refer to The Acts of the Apostles 21:27-29 for instance




Through Calvary, the believing Gentile has been brought into a new dominion and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into:

· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world


I disagree. The laws of the commonwealth disallowed the Gentiles from entering into the temple complex. The true source of Jew/Gentile unity is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather than gaiirl to God via the Jewish temple, a place forbidden to a Gentile by law, the Gentiles gain access to God via his Spirit as Paul plainly says.

Even you know, you are explaining away the obvious. You are talking in riddles and walking in circles. Stop fighting the text and attempting to explain away the wording of the Bible. We are now integral to the citizenship of Israel. The wall is gone since the cross.

We have entered the NT temple. The old covenant temple is gone forever. Why would you even bring this into the discussion when it is an irrelevancy?

 

[WPM]

I did not say that we are part of the citizenship of Israel.

The text says it. Hello! What citizenship does the text say we are part of? Please quote Scripture.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is there weeping in your millennium - yes or no?

You’ve asked that so many times, like you think it proves something. All it proves to me is that the verses that allow for ANY death, even if greatly reduced, cannot be NHNE verses.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

attempting to explain away the wording of the Bible.

You mean like…saying a verse talking about death doesn’t really mean death…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Interesting that some believe that a hundred years old is living forever. :)

Well is is really any wonder? The only way to eternal life is to receive Gods Spirit, yet men are taught even those who don’t will have eternal life. An eternal life of torment, but nevertheless, eternal life. How can they not be confused?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ lumped in a lot of events in a short passage. Things which appear to follow immediately after other things only do so apparently because of the testimony of other verses.

That's quite a convenient way for you to interpret that passage. It's quite clear that all people will be gathered before Christ on His throne just after He comes with His angels and then all people will be judged. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that there will be any kind of significant time gap between His second coming and the judgment of all people.

Where does the coming period of total darkness of an emptied destroyed silent Earth fit into a scemlnario where activity takes place now, Jesus comes to outshine the Sun and destroys the wicked and much activity continues to ensue with the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth and all that is made new here? Can you find somewhere on that prophetic timeline for this to fit?

Why do you think it would take long for Him to create the new heavens and new earth? I don't see that as something that will take much time for Him to do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, but as I say, in order to hold your position, you need to ignore and toss out important verses.

That's a lie. I don't ignore any important verses and I also don't twist verses like Romans 9:6-8 and 1 Peter 2:9 to fit my doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I’ve said, the place where I can clearly see a jump backwards has been made is where it begins to talk of death. There will be absolutely no more death (not even a little bit) on the new heavens and earth. So I read it and say, that sounds greatly improved but cannot be NHNE. You read it and say, it HAS to be NHNE so it must not really be speaking of death even if it sounds that way.

So, you see it as talking about the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65:17-19 and then you think the subject changes in verse 20, right? But, you were shown how verse 20 refers back to verse 19, which means it's directly related to verse 19. Does that not matter to you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is there weeping in your millennium - yes or no?

She thinks Isaiah 65:17-19 is about the new heavens and new earth, but then the subject is changed and it starts talking about the supposed earthly millennium after that. Yet, it's very clear that verse 20 refers directly to what was just talked about in the previous verses (17-19).

Isaiah 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. 20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reacha]">[a] a hundred will be considered accursed.

This is what she's reading. Notice that verse 19 says regarding (the new) Jerusalem, the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. Then verse 20 says "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days...". Never again will be there be in what an infant who lives but a few days? Or, in other words, what is "IT" referring to in verse 20 when it says "Never again will there be in IT an infant who lives but a few days..."? Obviously, "it" is Jerusalem. It's clearly still talking about the same subject in verse 20 as in verses 17-19, but she stubbornly does not acknowledge this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean like…saying a verse talking about death doesn’t really mean death…?

Your inability to recognize that Isaiah was speaking figuratively when talking about a 100 year old child is amazing to me. A 100 year old child? Really? That's nonsense when taken literally. It's clearly figurative text. He was describing eternity in a figurative way that people back then could understand. The concept of eternity was foreign to people back then, so that's why Isaiah wrote about it figuratively.

Here is another passage about the new heavens and new earth:

Isaiah 66:22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Do you think we will be literally going out and looking at dead bodies on the new earth or do you think Isaiah was speaking figuratively here?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Interesting that some believe that a hundred years old is living forever. :)

Do you believe that Isaiah 65:18-19 is about the new heavens and new earth?