22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

I realize you are fighting against a brand of Premill I do not subscribe to.

I firmly believe humanity's chance to get saved ends at the Second Coming. What you and I disagree about is you think there's a seamless Earthly transition from the here and now to the Earth made new - an unbroken, constant period of life and activity on Earth from Adam to eternity, and is why you are Amillennial.

Where in your scenario can be fitted the prophesied period of destruction, desolation, darkness, emptiness, silence, where a suffocating atmosphere leaves the planet devoid of humanity and the animal kingdom?

The only place this period fits is during the thousand years which separate the two resurrections, while the saints reign with Jesus in heaven, after which the capital of the universe is moved from there to here and as the City touches down, the wicked shall rise for Judgment, and the rest will be history.

The earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord at his return, you clearly avoided a response to post #1267 above, running from scriptural truth presented "Why"?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron for a thousand years on earth?

I do not agree with your premise that Revelation 20 must contain every detail concerning the end times; and I do not agree with your premise that single mention disqualifies an interpretation. You need to prove these predicates.

The Op rebuts your opinion.

Impossible since my opinion came after it. Were you traveling in a time machine?

Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that?

The Bible doesn't explicitly say that people will come to saving faith during the Millennial period. But neither does it rule that out. But Isaiah speaks about a time when children will live to at least 100, which strongly implies a mortal existence. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that children born during the Millennial period might hear the gospel and believe it.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation.

Who says that the Millennial period ends the concept of "now"? I don't think it does. As long as mortal life exists, faith and hope remain.

He describes the second coming as "the end." It is also "the end of the age." Same thing!

Of course, and?

The unindoctrinated Bible student should have no difficulty in understanding the meaning and weightiness of the phrases/events “the beginning” and “the end.” That is because they actually mean what they say. These expressions are often used on their own throughout Scripture because the Holy Spirit evidently expects the believer to take God literally at His Word and accept these plain and obvious statements at face value.

In my experience, nothing means what we think it means. Rather, it means what the Bible intended to convey.

Where does it say this is just the unsaved? Nowhere!

Where does it say that Jesus came during the time of the White Throne Judgment? Nowhere!

This is a general judgment when Jesus comes! It doesn't say they are only the unsaved dead anywhere. It says "the dead" were "judged."

That's right, but how did you conclude that a general resurrection of the living is contrary to a special resurrection of the martyrs? I don't get that.

The great white throne arrives at the one and only coming of Christ, which sees the removal of the current corrupt heavens and earth.

Revelation 20 says nothing about the coming of Christ. The term "coming" translates the Greek word "parusia" referring to a special celebration of Roman war generals who entered the capital city in triumph. The arena or venue for the final judgment is a location which is neither on this earth or on the new earth. One can't make a Triumphal entry into a place that doesn't exist. But what of Matthew 23:37-39? Jesus seems to think that he will some day return to Jerusalem. He will stay away until his people are ready to say, "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." The phrase "in the name of the Lord" indicates the moment that Jesus fulfills his role as the Messiah. When Jesus comes in the name of the Lord, he comes to live in Jerusalem and serve as the king of Israel during the Millennial period. The Jews have never said that Jesus was blessed to have that role. But they will in the Millennial kingdom.

Revelation 11:15-18

Imagine that. Jesus is not ruling from heaven after all. He doesn't begin to rule until the seventh trumpet. That kind of puts a kink in your allegorical view doesn't it?

The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.”

Sure. Okay, how many hours in a day again? Sure there is enough time?
By the way, what happens after chapter 11? Anything? Are the vial judgments poured out on the New Heavens and New earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

Being saved isn't a "Resurrection" as you claim, it appears you deny a future physical resurrection of the believer as seen in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

I have already told you that I do not deny it. Being saved and our blessed hope has everything to with Jesus own resurrection. We become acquainted with the power of HIS resurrection .The time now is for Those who believe in what he did to pass from death to life as Jn 5 states.

How can a passing from death to to life not be spiritualy understood as a resurrection?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do not agree with your premise that Revelation 20 must contain every detail concerning the end times

I agree. It’s not how prophecy works.

 

[CadyandZoe]

A literal Millennial Kingdom on this earth isn't seen in Revelation 20 as explained below.

I don't see how 2 Peter 3 relates to Revelation 20.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In my experience, nothing means what we think it means. Rather, it means what the Bible intended to convey.

I agree!

 

[Truth7t7]

I have already told you that I do not deny it. Being saved and our blessed hope has everything to with Jesus own resurrection. We become acquainted with the power of HIS resurrection .The time now is for Those who believe in what he did to pass from death to life as Jn 5 states.

How can a passing from death to to life not be spiritualy understood as a resurrection?

I apologize, I posted without viewing your response, my bad

I removed the post in question, thanks for the response!

Once again, my apology

Jesus Is The Lord!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't see how 2 Peter 3 relates to Revelation 20.

More to rev 21. Not 20

 

[jeffweeder]

I apologize, I posted without viewing your response, my bad

I removed the post in question, thanks for the response!

Once again, my apology

Jesus Is The Lord!

Not a problem Bro' Thankyou so much.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't see how 2 Peter 3 relates to Revelation 20.

2 Peter 3:8 states one day is with the Lord as a thousand years?

It explains that there isn't literal earthly time in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm

2 Peter 3:8 below gives the clear interpretation, one day is a "thousand years" in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm in Revelation 20:1-6 its that simple "No Literal Earthly Time" is seen, No Kingdom On This Earth Is Seen, No Humans On Earth Are Present in Revelation 20:1-6

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

That seen in Revelation 20:1-6 is the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, not this earthly realm as Millennialist "Falsely Claim"

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Earthly Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2 Peter 3:8 states one day is with the Lord as a thousand years?

It explains that there isn't literal earthly time in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm

2 Peter 3:8 below gives the clear interpretation, one day is a "thousand years" in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, its that simple "No Literal Earthly Time" is seen

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

That seen in Revelation 20:1-6 is the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, not this earthly realm as Millennialist "Falsely Claim"

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Earthly Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is just showing how patient God is.. talk about twisting the word of God!

 

[WPM]

I do not agree with your premise that Revelation 20 must contain every detail concerning the end times; and I do not agree with your premise that single mention disqualifies an interpretation. You need to prove these predicates.

Exactly. Premil is based on scriptural silence and the dumping of unrelated details into that chapter.

The Bible doesn't explicitly say that people will come to saving faith during the Millennial period. But neither does it rule that out. But Isaiah speaks about a time when children will live to at least 100, which strongly implies a mortal existence. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that children born during the Millennial period might hear the gospel and believe it.

Here we go again! Again, Premil is based on scriptural silence and the dumping of unrelated details into that chapter. Isaiah 65 makes no mention of your imaginary future millennium. It relates to the NHNE. When does Revelation say it arrives? After, the millennium. We are currently in Revelation 20.

Who says that the Millennial period ends the concept of "now"? I don't think it does. As long as mortal life exists, faith and hope remain.

More private opinion and zero evidence. This is Premil in a nutshell!

Of course, and?

It s not the end in Premil. Life, time, sin and sinners, the curse and all corruption, hatred, and rebellion, crying and dying, hospitals and funerals, war and terror, Satan and his minions, carry on unabated. Premil nullifies the whole meaning of the end. Once again you duck around the Scripturess that forbid your teaching.

In my experience, nothing means what we think it means. Rather, it means what the Bible intended to convey.

Not in Premil. It is whatever allows your imaginary sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This occurs at the second coming. There is only one judgment.

Of course, but I take issue with your view that the second coming of Christ marks the climatic end of history.

It doesn't say that. They judge unbelieving Israel at the final judgment.

A comparison between verse 4 and verse 11 might be helpful. The differences between the two are so striking I am unclear how you missed the distinction.

I am not interested in your bias and faulty man-made Premil videos.

Yeah? Well you aren't the only one. :) Your original post was man-made I assume.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

I do not agree with your assumption that his coming and the end are coincidental. The idea that it might take a thousand years to deliver up the kingdom to God sounds reasonable.

There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end.

So you say.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The text doesn't say he delivers it up at his coming does it? I don't think it does. You seem to be reading that into the text. It seems just as likely that subjugating an entire world might take some time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament.

Aren't you the one who allegorizes the scriptures?

It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise.

Oh, it isn't so hard. Jesus understood it; the disciples understood it; his followers understood it. Doesn't seem that hard to me. But if you are talking about hidden meanings, I see your point. Apparently I haven't been show these hidden meanings.

I disagree. Premil is an unsupported doctrine. The mistake you make is to interpret the rest of Scripture by your opinion of one lone highly-symbolic much-debated chapter in scripture. The evidence of the error of your position is the fact you lack any corroboration for every tenet of Premil. All you have is your private opinion of one chapter.

This is 40 miles of bad road and my fingers are getting tired.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is just showing how patient God is.. talk about twisting the word of God!

It's showing God is outside of earthly time, one day is a thousand years, Jesus Christ is the Alpha/Omega the First and The Last

Revelation 20:1-6 is outside of time, 100% in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm "No Earthly Time", No Kingdom on this earth or mortal humans are seen and you know it!

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Earthly Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

Where does it say that Jesus came during the time of the White Throne Judgment? Nowhere!

Not so. Revelation 20:11-15 says, “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming. Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

That's right, but how did you conclude that a general resurrection of the living is contrary to a special resurrection of the martyrs? I don't get that.

It is very difficult to engage with you with all your man-made teaching, theories and terminologies. Where in Scripture does it teach "a special resurrection of the martyrs"? Nowhere! Your teachers have taught you wrong.

Revelation 20 says nothing about the coming of Christ. The term "coming" translates the Greek word "parusia" referring to a special celebration of Roman war generals who entered the capital city in triumph. The arena or venue for the final judgment is a location which is neither on this earth or on the new earth. One can't make a Triumphal entry into a place that doesn't exist. But what of Matthew 23:37-39? Jesus seems to think that he will some day return to Jerusalem. He will stay away until his people are ready to say, "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." The phrase "in the name of the Lord" indicates the moment that Jesus fulfills his role as the Messiah. When Jesus comes in the name of the Lord, he comes to live in Jerusalem and serve as the king of Israel during the Millennial period. The Jews have never said that Jesus was blessed to have that role. But they will in the Millennial kingdom.

See above

Imagine that. Jesus is not ruling from heaven after all. He doesn't begin to rule until the seventh trumpet. That kind of puts a kink in your allegorical view doesn't it?.

I do not know what you're talking about.

Sure. Okay, how many hours in a day again? Sure there is enough time?
By the way, what happens after chapter 11? Anything? Are the vial judgments poured out on the New Heavens and New earth.

Amils believe at this juncture we are now into eternity. So, time will be terminated. Time shall be no more. You are trying to examine Amillennialism with your peculiar form of eisegesis.

 

[WPM]

Of course, but I take issue with your view that the second coming of Christ marks the climatic end of history.


A comparison between verse 4 and verse 11 might be helpful. The differences between the two are so striking I am unclear how you missed the distinction.

Yeah? Well you aren't the only one. :) Your original post was man-made I assume.


I do not agree with your assumption that his coming and the end are coincidental. The idea that it might take a thousand years to deliver up the kingdom to God sounds reasonable.

So you say.


The text doesn't say he delivers it up at his coming does it? I don't think it does. You seem to be reading that into the text. It seems just as likely that subjugating an entire world might take some time.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

You are in a constant fight with the wording of Scripture. This proves my point in the Op: it is actually Amils that take Scripture literally, not Premils. They are always explaining away the literal straightforward reading of the inspired pages.

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

 

[Phoneman777]

First, please do not talk on my behalf. I can tell you what I believe and why I am an Amil.

I can't accurately summarize what you profess?

Are you saying that your future millennium is "destruction, desolation, darkness, emptiness, silence, where a suffocating atmosphere leaves the planet devoid of humanity and the animal kingdom?"

Look, if I can take the time to read (for the most part) your giant mega-posts, you ought to be willing to read a couple paragraphs that comprise mine, OK? I'll spell it out for you again: Your eschatological interpretation has life and activity beginning in Eden and unfolding throughout history through unceasing eternity. It leaves no room for that prophesied period of no life or activity on Earth.

The truth is that life and activity begin in Eden and ends at the Second Coming.

Then, the resurrected and living saints leave to reign with Christ in heaven for 1,000 years while the Earth lies in ruins for the 1,000 year millennium, desolate, destroyed, in darkness, without atmosphere or elements, empty, devoid of human and animal life (except for Satan and his demons).

When the 1,000 expire, New Jerusalem touches down and the wicked are raised in the Resurrection of the Damned and cast into the Lake of Fire, after which life and activity on Earth continues for all eternity in the Earth made new.

 

[jeffweeder]

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.
Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Spot on Paul. I cannot emphasize enough how you have rightly divide the truth here.
May we all see it.

 

[WPM]

I can't accurately summarize what you profess?
Look, if I can take the time to read (for the most part) your giant mega-posts, you ought to be willing to read a couple paragraphs that comprise mine, OK? I'll spell it out for you again: Your eschatological interpretation has life and activity beginning in Eden and unfolding throughout history through unceasing eternity. It leaves no room for that prophesied period of no life or activity on Earth.

The truth is that life and activity begin in Eden and ends at the Second Coming.

Then, the resurrected and living saints leave to reign with Christ in heaven for 1,000 years while the Earth lies in ruins for the 1,000 year millennium, desolate, destroyed, in darkness, without atmosphere or elements, empty, devoid of human and animal life (except for Satan and his demons).

When the 1,000 expire, New Jerusalem touches down and the wicked are raised in the Resurrection of the Damned and cast into the Lake of Fire, after which life and activity on Earth continues for all eternity in the Earth made new.

Why did you not explain this earlier? This is obviously not a typical view. Notwithstanding, it does not add up. The earth in Revelation 20 is full of billions of wicked inhabitants as the sand of the sea who surround the camp of the saints near the end. You totally ignore that. Where is this happening in your theory - heaven or hell? Or is in an illusion?