14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[Phoneman777]

You noticed that huh? I did too. To some extent at least. What I concluded after pondering it and praying about it was this:

It is indeed a Parable, however, it illustrates very important Biblical Truths and biblical principles. What does it show us in that parable?

They have their five senses. They can feel thirst, they can see and smell and all that stuff.

It is very uncomfortable for them. They souls in there now are all awaiting judgment. They stay there in their temporary holding place until the great white throne judgment. After which they go into the Lake of fire.

After Jesus died on the cross, He set the captives free and they are no longer going there. Jesus came and paid the price to rescue them. Now when Believers die, absent from the body means present with the Lord!

The Lord told me one time that the reason for the increased Volcanic activity all around the globe and tectonic plates shifting around giving us earthquakes and all that is because it is late in the age and people have been dying for a long time now and hell has had to expand to house them all! So no wonder more earthquakes and volcanos erupting is happening everywhere. So they are expanding hell underneath the surface of the earth.

Whoa.

Actually, since the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body andthe Breath of Life, at death, when the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, the Soul CEASES to exist. It GOES OUT OF existence...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

 

[MA2444]

There were others named Lazarus too. Plenty of Joseph's and Mary's, and Jacob's. Its a fact, that Jesus didn't use real names in Parables. Its a real story.

Hi my name's John Smith. (LOL). Please to meet'cha'.

The story is an illustration. The truths expressed are a reality and truth.

 

[Taken]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

Jesus was SENT to earth to accomplish a mission.

Jesus SPEAKING in “parables” WAS in part HOW He was to accomplish His mission.

Generally, broadly men hearing a PARABLE…scrutinize the “moral, lesson, the Parable “ intends….whether or not the “story” is true or fictional.

HOWEVER…it HAS ZERO consequence regarding WHATEVER “category” (parable, fable, poem, song, bedtime story, rhyme, etc.) JESUS SPOKE….

BeCAUSE….He could NOT LIE! Period.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Skovand]

Jesus never used real names in parables. This is a true story. Do not go to the old testament for scriptures, because in the new testament Jesus set the captives free. Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection, and all others who are in Jesus are resurrected also.

Parables did routinely use names. It was very common in the iron age for parables to include names. Parables is often a “fits one” term. For example the book of Jonah is a satirical longer parable.

As for why Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.

Is the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus a Fable about the Afterlife?

Luke’s parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is remarkable for several reasons. It is the only Gospel parable in which a character is named. It seemingly has no parallel in the other Synoptics. It is…

isthatinthebible.wordpress.com

This also digs into it a bit.

intertextual.bible | Luke 16:19 | Jerusalem Chagigah 2.2.6

Explore intertextual connections in biblical literature

intertextual.bible

Now one of the most comprehensive scholarly writings on this is “ The Fate of the Dead” by Bauckham. Paperback is roughly $50. That’s for the supplements to Novum Testanmentum.

Amazon.com

Now the actual Novum Testanmentum is typically around $60. It’s a critical commentary and translation of the New Testament. There are currently around 10 supplements to it each around $50.

 

[Rockerduck]

I think it has to be a parable. What is the rich man's name?

But it spells out a spiritual reality and biblical principles, so it is very true.

The Lord had told me of events that happened and only named His own, not the others. So the Lord's own are named, no one else even tho' others were present. You see, Jesus knows His own and their names, if they don't belong to Him, they aren't mentioned. The rich man wasn't His, but Lazarus was.

 

[Rockerduck]

Parables did routinely use names. It was very common in the iron age for parables to include names. Parables is often a “fits one” term. For example the book of Jonah is a satirical longer parable.

As for why Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.

Is the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus a Fable about the Afterlife?

Luke’s parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is remarkable for several reasons. It is the only Gospel parable in which a character is named. It seemingly has no parallel in the other Synoptics. It is…

isthatinthebible.wordpress.com

This also digs into it a bit.

intertextual.bible | Luke 16:19 | Jerusalem Chagigah 2.2.6

Explore intertextual connections in biblical literature

intertextual.bible

Now one of the most comprehensive scholarly writings on this is “ The Fate of the Dead” by Bauckham. Paperback is roughly $50. That’s for the supplements to Novum Testanmentum.

Amazon.com

Now the actual Novum Testanmentum is typically around $60. It’s a critical commentary and translation of the New Testament. There are currently around 10 supplements to it each around $50.

I don't believe that at all. I believe God's word over anything else.

 

[MA2444]

Actually, since the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body andthe Breath of Life, at death, when the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, the Soul CEASES to exist. It GOES OUT OF existence...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

Oh, who told you that? I'd ask for my money back. Sure, man becomes a "Living soul" by being born into a human body. But if you remember your scripture, the spirit and soul are tied together and inseparable by man. Only by the word of God (If He says so!) So when he gives you your new spirit when you are "Born Again" (!!) The spirit and soul get tied together and consequently begin to fight. The two wolves with us.

Who get's to control the flesh body? That's what they fight over! It is us that listen to the spirit and listen to the soul and decide what action we will take in the flesh.
The soul always sides with the flesh and wants everything it wants. The best food, the best women total debauchery. The spirit always want to do what is right and your spirit accuses you when your doing wrong thru your conscience. Scripture be led by the spirit. Overcome the flesh. Surrender the flesh to the Lord!

I make my soul pi**ed sometimes. He will open his mouth like say when I am fasting and he says a handful of chocolate chips wouldn't hurt much...? And I tell him to sit down and shut up or I will fast an extra day! Boy! (LOL). He shuts up after that I've noticed. Hunger goes away!

And if your spirit leaves the body, the soul goes with it. The body gets buried.

 

[MA2444]

The Lord had told me of events that happened and only named His own, not the others. So the Lord's own are named, no one else even tho' others were present. You see, Jesus knows His own and their names, if they don't belong to Him, they aren't mentioned. The rich man wasn't His, but Lazarus was.

It's still a parable though. It's just a real parable that's what! Truth.

 

[Taken]

Actually, since the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body andthe Breath of Life, at death, when the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, the Soul CEASES to exist. It GOES OUT OF existence...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

Will have to (somewhat) disagree.

Everything God Created Will EXIST Forever…
It simply changes “FORM” that it becomes “unrecognizable” as being it’s Original form.

Living souls….Yes ARE Alive, because of the LIFE God gave it….His Breath.
If and when His Breath is departed From a SOUL….that soul IS DEAD….and will ultimately be destroyed…burned up.

What human man “KNOWS” what a Living soul “looks like”….?? Or would “KNOW” what a destroyed, burned up soul would look like?

ManKind can see a tree…burn it and see the ash.

ManKind can see a body….burn it and see fine particles….(primarily whitish in color)…(from the color of the massive amount of whitish color bones that make up a human.

But a lifeless dead soul, destroyed by fire….no clue what that would look like.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Presently…….NO SOULS…IN or OUT of their body; IN Heaven, IN Hell…ARE LIFELESS, (ie without Gods Breath).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Skovand]

I don't believe that at all. I believe God's word over anything else.

No. You choose to believe your interpretation of it over other interpretations. We all do. The difference is not that we choose to believe gods word, but that some of us have a very uninformed opinion. Opinions are not all developed equally even if they all potentially hold equal power.

All the links I just posted… are people who believe in gods word so much they went to college for 10+ years to learn it and have made a career out of critical research.

Yall really struggle with this.
When you say you accept God’s words what you actually mean is that you ACCEPT YOUR OWN PEROSNAL OPINION OF WHAT YOU THINK OS THE BEST INTERPRETATION OF IT.

You need to repeat that again and again. When I say I believe gods words I mean I believe what I presume they mean. Which is what I do too. I believe what I believe because of the Bible. I think you are the one who’s ignoring what the Bible says because you ignore contextual analysis in favor of face value westernized readings.

 

[Rockerduck]

No. You choose to believe your interpretation of it over other interpretations. We all do. The difference is not that we choose to believe gods word, but that some of us have a very uninformed opinion. Opinions are not all developed equally even if they all potentially hold equal power.

All the links I just posted… are people who believe in gods word so much they went to college for 10+ years to learn it and have made a career out of critical research.

Yall really struggle with this.
When you say you accept God’s words what you actually mean is that you ACCEPT YOUR OWN PEROSNAL OPINION OF WHAT YOU THINK OS THE BEST INTERPRETATION OF IT.

You need to repeat that again and again. When I say I believe gods words I mean I believe what I presume they mean. Which is what I do too. I believe what I believe because of the Bible. I think you are the one who’s ignoring what the Bible says because you ignore contextual analysis in favor of face value westernized readings.

The words written by man can never save you. Only the Word of God and Jesus can save you. Don't believe those books written by flawed humans. "Westernized" readings have sent missionaries from the USA to the world for the last 3 hundred years and interpreted the language of the world from the same "westernized" readings. I will never except a book about the bible, only the Word of God. It's not my interpretation, its God's.

 

[MatthewG]

The words written by man can never save you. Only the Word of God and Jesus can save you. Don't believe those books written by flawed humans. "Westernized" readings have sent missionaries from the USA to the world for the last 3 hundred years and interpreted the language of the world from the same "westernized" readings. I will never except a book about the bible, only the Word of God. It's not my interpretation, its God's.

Hello @Rockerduck,

The written word doesn't save anyone if you are suggesting that the bible is "The Word of God." It's a collection of Yahavah and his dealing with mankind. The Word of God, is the spoken Word of God, which as an example when Yahavah said "Let there be light." That was the Word of God, in action thus then creating the light. By reading the written record called the "Apostolic Record." People can find out that the "Word of God" was made flesh. It does not say "The Word of God, was a book." There are some issues there. The Old Testament is, a collection pertaining to the dealing with mankind and Yahavah, and the "Apostolic Record" is another dealing with Yahavah, and mankind through his sent Word, made flesh. Yahavah saves people, from their old ways by and through the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, even the Spirit of Christ. Those who seek out the Lord in faith, are saved unto the kingdom. However, even proclaimed Christians can fall away, and leave the faith.

 

[Skovand]

The words written by man can never save you. Only the Word of God and Jesus can save you. Don't believe those books written by flawed humans. "Westernized" readings have sent missionaries from the USA to the world for the last 3 hundred years and interpreted the language of the world from the same "westernized" readings. I will never except a book about the bible, only the Word of God. It's not my interpretation, its God's.

Well then it’s not my interpretation either but God’s own interpretation as well. The Holy Spirit put it on my heart that im right and you are wrong.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello @Rockerduck,

The written word doesn't save anyone if you are suggesting that the bible is "The Word of God." It's a collection of Yahavah and his dealing with mankind. The Word of God, is the spoken Word of God, which as an example when Yahavah said "Let there be light." That was the Word of God, in action thus then creating the light. By reading the written record called the "Apostolic Record." People can find out that the "Word of God" was made flesh. It does not say "The Word of God, was a book." There are some issues there. The Old Testament is, a collection pertaining to the dealing with mankind and Yahavah, and the "Apostolic Record" is another dealing with Yahavah, and mankind through his sent Word, made flesh. Yahavah saves people, from their old ways by and through the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, even the Spirit of Christ. Those who seek out the Lord in faith, are saved unto the kingdom. However, even proclaimed Christians can fall away, and leave the faith.

Faith (salvation) comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Romans 10:17.

 

[Rockerduck]

Well then it’s not my interpretation either but God’s own interpretation as well. The Holy Spirit put it on my heart that im right and you are wrong.

The Holy Spirit audibly tells me. What did the Holy Spirit tell you? exact words please.

 

[MatthewG]

Faith (salvation) comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Romans 10:17.

Hello @Rockerduck,

And how does Yahavah speak to people?

Psalm 19:1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Your point is moot. The Bible is not "The Word of God" it's a collection of books concerning the dealings of Yahavah and mankind. The "Word of God" was never made a book. "The Word of God" was made flesh... and today we go by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, and the Spirit of Christ. Who is the "glory of God?" The Lord Yeshua, the "Word of God."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

YOu tossed out all integrity by your not subtle accusation against millions of believers.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

Who said anything besides you about disemobied bodies? I know they are souls and by what authority do you declare that teh souls of men do not have a recognizable form?

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

So sad. Abrahams bosom was a well recognized place also known as Paradise. You are straining at gnats to swallow a camel. Jesu sdiod not declare Abes bosom was a fiction, all but the Sadducees knew of paradise/Abrahams bosom. and sorry you have a hard time recognizng euphemistic language.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

Well the place of the dead is not th ekingdom so you shot down your own point! IN the New TEstament , yes paradise was brought to heaven. but not in the old. It was also called Abrahams bosom. Don't take my word for it, go ask some rabbis or look up old rabbinic writings.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

And yet Paul said when we are (present tense) absent from the body, we are present (present tense) with the Lord. Seems the dead know something. Remember, many thins were not revealed in the Old.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's “reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished”.

Well if you understood how words were usaed by the original authors and not solely from a 21st Century mindset you wouldn't think that way.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello @Rockerduck,

And how does Yahavah speak to people?

Psalm 19:1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Your point is moot. The Bible is not "The Word of God" it's a collection of books concerning the dealings of Yahavah and mankind. The "Word of God" was never made a book. "The Word of God" was made flesh... and today we go by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, and the Spirit of Christ. Who is the "glory of God?" The Lord Yeshua, the "Word of God."

In the Old Testament, Numbers 12:6 -
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.

In the New Testament, John 16:13 -However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.