Me saying that Rev 1:5-6 is believing Israel is not saying the book is written to them
Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture
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Maybe they are different because they used corrupt texts
I would say we have plenty of KJV verses to determine that once we delve into it....dont need greek
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We're talking about history here, so in that case you have to look at historical evidence not only in scripture, but also outside of scripture. But, there is scriptural evidence for there being actual churches in Ephesus, Laodicea and Thyatira.
Scriptural references to the church in Ephesus:
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. 17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Scriptural reference to the church in Laodicea:
Colossians 4:13 For I bear him record, that he hath a great zeal for you, and them that are in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis. 14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. 15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Also, the following doesn't refer to the church in Thyatira per se, but does mention a Christian who lived there along with other Christians in her household.
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Here is a site that gives some information on the seven churches and what ended up happening to them: What Happened to the Seven Churches of Revelation? - IMB
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
John referred to "us" in that passage, implying that he was including himself as well as the ones he was writing to.
Can you show me where the whole remnant, according to you being ethnic Jews, are all called a priesthood? The office of priesthood of Old Covenant Israel was given exclusively to Levites, the sons of Aaron.
Through the death and resurrection of Christ those belonging to the churches on earth, called to be saints have been made kings and priests unto God through Christ who loved us and washed us from sins in His own blood.
Revelation 1:4-6 (KJV) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
John is shown a vision of Christ, as the Lamb as it had been slain having redeemed a people unto God by His blood, out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation, making them unto our God kings and priests who shall reign on the earth. Not this earth that shall be burned up, but the new earth that shall come after this first earth passes away.
Revelation 5:6-10 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Every believer, through Christ are called priests and kings of the earth. Nowhere can we find Jews of Old, who are not of the Levitical line, sons of Aaron being a priesthood of believers.
So there is no verse to identify these churches......just because there were churches doesnt mean there isnt future churches
John will be in the kingdom on the throne judging the twelve tribes as far as I know..............[Mat 19:28 KJV] 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Who do you think the captives set free from the lower parts of the earth (hades/grave) are? Of course, as you've said, those whom through the spirit of Christ returned to God the spiritual body of believers, called "living souls"! Ephesians clearly shows us that after Christ defeated death and the grave through His cross, those faithful saints waiting in the grave (Abraham's bosom) for the promise of the Messiah to come ascended to heaven spiritually alive as living souls. None could ascend to heaven before Messiah came to defeat sin and death. After Christ defeated both sin and death through His cross and resurrection, the place of Old called the bosom of Abraham was emptied. Now every believer who dies in faith of Christ ascends to heaven as spiritual body, living souls, while the mortal, corruptible body of flesh returns to the earth and will not be resurrected immortal and incorruptible until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, and time shall be no longer.
How do you explain the majority of the nation of Israel dying in the wilderness in unbelief? As you are aware the Covenant promises to Israel of Old is conditioned upon their faithfulness to God. We know from the New Covenant what people of God shall be unto Him a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you not read my post? I showed verses from other parts of scripture identifying 3 of them as actual churches that existed in the first century. I also give you a link that gives historical information on all 7 churches.
What?!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to change the subject? We're talking about something that was a reality when he wrote Revelation 1:5-6, not something that will happen in the future.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Take your Dispensatanist glasses off and you will see it in the text and elsewhere. Rev 5:9-10: "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
It is hard to take you serious. You twist every passage to support your Zionism. Who needs the Holy Spirit.
Exactly bro. Those who have eyes to see can see it. Those who are led by the doctrines of men will not.
[Eph 4:8-10 KJV] 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Here is the scripture it says nothing about captives set free
again sorry but you have not shown any scripture to say those in Abraham's bosom were set free and went to heaven
Who do you believe "ascended up on high"? And how was it that the one who ascended up on high "led captivity captive"? Why did this same one that ascended up on high "first descend into the lower parts of the earth"? What gifts did the one that ascended up on high give unto men?
After ascending up on high with those captives held in captivity in the lower parts of the earth, the one who ascended up on high established leadership for the body of Christ on earth that they might all come to unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.
Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I did read it....thats why I say ok there were churches in these locations in other passages but that does not mean John was writing at that time to them but to future churches who would read it going into the tribulation
I am not saying any thing more than these churches cant be absolutely identified
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