The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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FHII

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Whose sheep are they then? I think you are taking a parable too literally.
I am taking "the parable" too literally? First off, its not a parable. A simile perhaps. Jesus used parables, but he wasn't here. We aren't sheep with whool, cute ears, running around on all fours and going "baa".... But we are likened to sheep in that we hear his voice and follow, because we are his sheep. They will not follow another (John 10)

But I am taking it too literally when Jesus said, "man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word of God"? Rest assured, I don't take it so literally that I believe we are actually 4 legged creatures with wool. But I so properly understand the simile.

Whose sheep are they? Well they can be little Bo Peep's sheep for all I know, but Jesus said they weren't his! Is it ok with you if I take that seriously?

They aren't his sheep because they ( the jews) were not taught by the Father. Whose fault was that?
They weren't taught by the Father? Well that inplies that it was the Father's fault because he didn't teach them. But that isn't true! Jesus said these things after telling them. Their unbelief was because they were not his sheep. That is what the Bible says.
 

Renniks

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They weren't taught by the Father? Well that inplies that it was the Father's fault because he didn't teach them. But that isn't true! Jesus said these things after telling them. Their unbelief was because they were not his sheep. That is what the Bible says
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.


44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me

Why would Jesus tell them to believe if they couldn't?

They didn't believe because they didn't learn what they should have from the Father through the Torah.
 

FHII

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your right it is based on Gods will, Gods will is that we chose to say yes, vs choosing to say no
well then the Bible needs to be amended. Here is what it says:

John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Here is what it should say:

John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye [chose] not [to be] my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep [choose to]hear my voice, and I know them, and they [choose to] follow me:

No... I ain't buying it!
 

Enoch111

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John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
All that this verse is saying is that those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are not His sheep. But the reason they "believe not" is because they chose not to believe (John 3:18,19).
 

FHII

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Why would Jesus tell them to believe if they couldn't?
The scripture you quoted provides the answer:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him," Yea... Jesus told them, they just didn't hear him.
 

FHII

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All that this verse is saying is that those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are not His sheep. But the reason they "believe not" is because they chose not to believe (John 3:18,19).
No... That is not what it says. It says they believed not BECAUSE they were not his sheep. Its not the same thing.
 

Renniks

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The scripture you quoted provides the answer:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him," Yea... Jesus told them, they just didn't hear him.
Not then they didn't. Doesn't mean that they never did. I see no reason to believe that God's drawing is unconditional.
 

Enoch111

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No... That is not what it says. It says they believed not BECAUSE they were not his sheep. Its not the same thing.
It is the same thing. How does one become a sheep and how is one excluded from the sheep? I gave you the Scriptures, which you disregarded. So here they are: He that believeth on him is not condemned: [INCLUDED IN THE SHEEP] but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [EXCLUDED FROM THE SHEEP] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who believe are born again, become children of God, and become sheep of the Great Shepherd. Those who do not believe are excluded. But they excluded themselves. Which again shows that if we isolate verses from the entire Gospel narrative, we arrive at a false gospel. and that is the gospel of Calvinism.

What Jesus was saying is simply confirmation. They did not believe because they were not included in the sheep. Not because God barred them from believing.
 

CadyandZoe

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Well of course we have no way to know how many the few are. I believe he is simply saying that he is the narrow way, not that he meant the way is super difficult and we will have to work really hard to enter. But yes, the whole point as far as this discussion is that it's conditional, which many don't really believe. They believe God picked them and that's it.
I do think the reward is both in this life and the next. If it's like carrying a heavy weight we are making it harder than it should be. Jesus said his yoke is easy, his burden is light. Being a selfish nonbeliever is much harder and completely empty.
I want to challenge the assumption you bring to the text. You are assuming that Jesus' conditional promise implies contingency. When the talk is about God's promises, however, not all promises depend on the recipient. Sometimes God meets the conditions himself. Do you agree with that?
 

Eternally Grateful

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well then the Bible needs to be amended. Here is what it says:

John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Here is what it should say:

John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye [chose] not [to be] my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep [choose to]hear my voice, and I know them, and they [choose to] follow me:

No... I ain't buying it!
No my Bible makes it clear

he who believes shall never perish

It is the will of the father whoever sees and believes shall have eternal life

whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved

your stuck on one passage and trying to force it into the rest of the passages, that does not work.

Your not special, so special God chose you and rejected others, you should change your thinking my friend
 

CadyandZoe

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Matthew 22:14:"but few are chosen." The Greek word for "chosen" is eklektos. How are people “chosen”? 1 Peter 1:1-2 uses the same Greek word and explains that believers are chosen (eklektos) “according to the foreknowledge of God”. Foreknowledge is simply the Greek word proginosko and it means “to know beforehand”. It has been said that God chooses to save those who choose to believe. This parable in Matthew 22 supports this statement, as does the whole New Testament.
Why are so few chosen? They are unwilling to come (Matt. 22:3). This parable in Matthew 22 actually is emphasizing man’s choice more than God’s choice in the matter of salvation, although both are true - God chooses to save those who choose to believe. “For many are called, but few are chosen” is one sentence tacked on to the end of a whole section emphasizing man’s choices and responses to God and their consequences.
11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I see this passage differently. In the parable, what do the wedding clothes represent?

What do we see here? The wedding reception was filled with people who made the free-will choice to attend. If you like, this represents man's choice. Those who came to the reception represent "the called." They were called and they chose to attend.

The King came to look over the dinner guests. This represents God's choice. The contrast between being called and being chosen is both striking and profound. Not all those who make the free-will choice to attend the wedding were allowed to stay. Those who were allowed to stay, are "the chosen", illustrated by the King's evaluation of the dinner guests. And the criteria for staying depends, not on a single choice made in a moment, but on some other factor represented by wedding clothes. The final choice of who stays and who goes is God's.
 

brightfame52

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brightfame52

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Myth, or no myth?
When Christ died, He "died for all", and tasted "death for every one". (2 Cor. 5:14; Hebrews 2:9) It had to be the second death that He "tasted", because what we call death, the Bible calls "sleep", which everyone experiences except those who will be translated (John 11:11-13; 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). Therefore there is no reason why anyone should at last die the second death except that he has resisted or rejected the salvation already given him "in Christ" (Hebrews 2:3; the Greek word 'neglect' in the KJV means 'despise' ...see Matthew 22:5)
At Christ's baptism, the Father accepted the human race in His Son. (Matt. 3:17) Thus He is already the Savior of all men (John 4:42) no one can any longer doubt that the Lord has accepted him or her 'in Christ'. But Christ is "especially" the Savior "of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).
Our salvation does not depend on our initiating a relationship with Him, it depends on our believing/responding to the relationship He has already initiated with us.
Christ has abolished death, the second death, (2 Timothy 1:10) for "every one", believers and unbelievers, for He has brought life, and for those who believe, He has also brought "immortality".
In Romans 5:15-18 Paul sets forth what Christ accomplished on the cross. Let me offer an analogy. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 illustrates that "verdict of acquittal" or "justification" for "all men" . Lincoln granted every slave in the confederate territories a legal freedom. But no-one could experience it until
1. He heard the good news and
2. Let it motivate him to walk out into liberty.
So the blood of the cross has brought everyone legal freedom from sin and its eternal consequences. Our part is to believe.
So Christ has accomplished something for every human being that has ever lived. He died the second death for "every man" and thus elected "all men" to be saved. In that sense, it is true that "He saved the world".
As one writer put it...with His own blood Christ has signed the emancipation papers for the whole race.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

What is the gospel???

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

When we shar the gospel, with whomsoever will hear, we can be confident that Christ died for that person, and that by simple faith he or she may lay hold of eternal life. We need have no fear that the person we are sharing the gospel with may be a part of some group of people who God in His infinite wisdom set aside and has predetermined to punish and destroy. Such a duplicitous God is not the God we serve.
Yes its a myth, and Im showing why with scripture.
 

FHII

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It is the same thing. How does one become a sheep and how is one excluded from the sheep? I gave you the Scriptures, which you disregarded. So here they are:
Enoch, if you can't see or refuse to acknowledge that what you say John 10:27 is different than what the Bible actually says, I will not dwell on it. I will however, stay with what it actually says.

Now in regards to your charge that I disregarded scripture: I did not, but I do disregard an attempt to use one scripture to trump another. The scripture you gave does NOT change what Jesus said in John 10. Yes, he that believeth on Him is not condemned: absolutely! But John 10:27 explains why they believe on him: the reason is because they are his sheep.

They did not believe because they were not included in the sheep.
YES! Absolutely! They did not believe. Why? Because they were not his sheep! That's what I said from the beginning.

Not because God barred them from believing
Well then you are really going to have a problem with Matthew 13:10-16.

Enoch, we have gone in enough circles with this. Therefore, I will let it be.
 

FHII

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No my Bible makes it clear

he who believes shall never perish

It is the will of the father whoever sees and believes shall have eternal life

whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved

your stuck on one passage and trying to force it into the rest of the passages, that does not work.

Your not special, so special God chose you and rejected others, you should change your thinking my friend
Eternally Grateful: I have already discussed the "whosoever" issue. It is an identification mark more than it is an open invitation. Now if you want to claim I am stuck on one scripture and am trying to force it into other, you are incorrect. I simply believe what it says, as it says it. I am not trying to explain the verse to change its meaning, nor am I trying to use "whosoever" to trump it.

As for me not being special: you are right: I am not! If I am called of God and predestined before the foundations of the world, I don't deserve it. I fully agree!
 

justbyfaith

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11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I see this passage differently. In the parable, what do the wedding clothes represent?

What do we see here? The wedding reception was filled with people who made the free-will choice to attend. If you like, this represents man's choice. Those who came to the reception represent "the called." They were called and they chose to attend.

The King came to look over the dinner guests. This represents God's choice. The contrast between being called and being chosen is both striking and profound. Not all those who make the free-will choice to attend the wedding were allowed to stay. Those who were allowed to stay, are "the chosen", illustrated by the King's evaluation of the dinner guests. And the criteria for staying depends, not on a single choice made in a moment, but on some other factor represented by wedding clothes. The final choice of who stays and who goes is God's.
So, what do you make of John 6:37?
 

Renniks

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I want to challenge the assumption you bring to the text. You are assuming that Jesus' conditional promise implies contingency. When the talk is about God's promises, however, not all promises depend on the recipient. Sometimes God meets the conditions himself. Do you agree with that?
Sometimes, but not in regard to obedience. God promises that spring and fall and harvest time will never cease until the end. That's not conditional on us. But it also seems that in some sense it was. Because if there had been no Noah to obey and save humanity, would we even exist today? To try and read the Bible in a way that says our actions don't change things is to create a false religion.
 

Renniks

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11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I see this passage differently. In the parable, what do the wedding clothes represent?

What do we see here? The wedding reception was filled with people who made the free-will choice to attend. If you like, this represents man's choice. Those who came to the reception represent "the called." They were called and they chose to attend.

The King came to look over the dinner guests. This represents God's choice. The contrast between being called and being chosen is both striking and profound. Not all those who make the free-will choice to attend the wedding were allowed to stay. Those who were allowed to stay, are "the chosen", illustrated by the King's evaluation of the dinner guests. And the criteria for staying depends, not on a single choice made in a moment, but on some other factor represented by wedding clothes. The final choice of who stays and who goes is God's.
He was tossed out because he wasn't clothed in Christ.
"I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels." (KJV)

"7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God." (KJV)

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy." (KJV)
The symbolism in Matt. 22:11-13 of the one who was not clothed with the proper wedding garments is of one who is not clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.…

God chooses based on whether we have genuine faith.
 
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Renniks

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Like I said, you seeing things. The Sheep dont have a choice in having a Shepherd, thats not in scripture friend.
If we have no choice, then why is Jesus nothing to preach to people who will go wherever they were programmed to go?
Of course it says we have a choice, it's all through scripture.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

In your theology that should read: "If God forces you through the narrow gate, you'll be saved, otherwise you're damned."
We are constantly told to enter, to put on Christ, to have faith, all which we can't do in your twisted theology.
 
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