The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Enoch111]

Those passages given by others on the other hand speaks of Jesus' sacrifice for atonement of sin of the world.

The problem with the cult of Calvinism is that its adherents have been so thoroughly BRAINWASHED, that they cannot adjust their minds to what is actually found in Scripture.

You could present 100 Scripture passages which clearly refute Calvinism, but it would be just like presenting Scriptures to the JWs. Not one of those verses actually registers, and breaks the bondage to false doctrine. That's how serious this affliction is.

So for those who are non-Calvinists, it is a total waste of time and energy to discuss Five Point Calvinism. Your efforts should be directed to other matters.

 

[FHII]

The difference is that you apparently think some are chosen to be saved and some are chosen to be the wicked

Well, yeah... Where would I get an idea like that?

Matthew 22:14 KJV
For many are called, but few are chosen.

And it doesn't say everyone is called.

 

[Renniks]

How do you define "few"? The sentence is a conditional, with the logical possibility that none will enter through the Jesus gate. Right? Jesus isn't saying one way or the other whether anyone will actually enter through the Jesus gate. His singular point is this. If perchance someone should enter through the Jesus gate, that person will be saved.

Jesus isn't saying anything about why someone would be motivated to enter through the Jesus gate. He isn't suggesting that the choice to enter is arbitrary or even based on personal preference. Remember, he tells us that the way is narrow and few go that way. In other words, the way is either hidden to most people or not desirable to most people.

It's like this. Sometimes our choices are easy because the reward for making the right choice is pleasant and immediately beneficial. But some of our choices are not pleasant and not immediately beneficial. If I choose to bench press 400 kg, I will need to suffer the pain and struggle of lifting weight over a long period of time and the reward of all that work comes years after I begin and maybe never.

Entering the Jesus gate is like weight lifting training. It's going to be painful for a long time and the reward is neither immediate or even located in this lifetime. I suppose we could say that it's a free-will choice but believe me, it's much more profound than deciding to take a walk in the park.

Well of course we have no way to know how many the few are. I believe he is simply saying that he is the narrow way, not that he meant the way is super difficult and we will have to work really hard to enter. But yes, the whole point as far as this discussion is that it's conditional, which many don't really believe. They believe God picked them and that's it.
I do think the reward is both in this life and the next. If it's like carrying a heavy weight we are making it harder than it should be. Jesus said his yoke is easy, his burden is light. Being a selfish nonbeliever is much harder and completely empty.

 

[Renniks]

Well, yeah... Where would I get an idea like that?

Matthew 22:14 KJV
For many are called, but few are chosen.

And it doesn't say everyone is called.

Matthew 22:14:"but few are chosen." The Greek word for "chosen" is eklektos. How are people “chosen”? 1 Peter 1:1-2 uses the same Greek word and explains that believers are chosen (eklektos) “according to the foreknowledge of God”. Foreknowledge is simply the Greek word proginosko and it means “to know beforehand”. It has been said that God chooses to save those who choose to believe. This parable in Matthew 22 supports this statement, as does the whole New Testament.
Why are so few chosen? They are unwilling to come (Matt. 22:3). This parable in Matthew 22 actually is emphasizing man’s choice more than God’s choice in the matter of salvation, although both are true - God chooses to save those who choose to believe. “For many are called, but few are chosen” is one sentence tacked on to the end of a whole section emphasizing man’s choices and responses to God and their consequences.

 

[Wrangler]

Why do you want to reduce it to a pre-chosen few?

One of the things my church emphasizes, one of their mantra's is, God's job is results; Our job is obedience. In context it means that our job is to spread the Good News. How many are saved is above our pay grade.

 

[FHII]

Foreknowledge is simply the Greek word proginosko and it means “to know beforehand”. It has been said that God chooses to save those who choose to believe. This parable in Matthew 22 supports this statement, as does the whole New Testament.

No, it doesn't. "It has been said that God chooses to save those who choose to believe"? Who said it? God? An Apostle?

John 10:27 doesn't say my sheep choose to hear my voice and choose to follow me.

As for foreknowledge... It also comes with being foreordained and predestinated.

 

[Renniks]

No, it doesn't

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

 

[Renniks]

John 10:27 doesn't say my sheep choose to hear my voice and choose to follow me.

But they choose to be sheep. Or not.

9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

 

[FHII]

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

That's right... Many are called. Few are chosen.

 

[FHII]

But they choose to be sheep. Or not.

9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

No, they don't choose to be sheep. Not only that, they don't get to chose whose sheep they are.

John 10:25-27 KJV
believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. [26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Verse 26 did not say ye are not my sheep because ye believe not. It says they believe not because they are not Jesus's sheep. But they are still sheep: not goats, not camels, not kitty cats, not elephants. They aren't even leopards who can't change their spots. They are sheep.

 

[FHII]

While Renniks and I are going round and round on this, I want to say 2 things: 1st, I appreciate your efforts and dedication, Renniks. A disagreement is certainly not a disapproval.

2nd: I've said this many times on this topic and I want to say it again... Whether you believe in predestination or free will: it really doesn't matter one bit! It should in no way impact your walk in Christ or your belief overall. The reason why is simple to me, but rarely am I able to explain it so people understand.

If you believe in free will (which I don't for the most part) you are of the mindset that you must contend daily for the faith delivered. Fine! That is biblical.

If you believe in predestination (as I do), its really no different. You still must contend daily for the faith that was delivered. HERE IS WHY: God doesn't give diplomna's or class rings early! Even if you believe in predestination and you are currently hot for God, you don't know what state you will be in tomorrow. Matthew 10:22 says we have to endure to the end to be saved.

In short, God does predestinate, he works all things according to his will and he has declared the end from the beginning. Those are all Biblical statements; however, he doesn't tell us who is predestinated. He gives the despription and qualifications, but not the names. So overall, the knowledge of predestination is useless in terms of our faith and walk.

Jesus chose 12 men. He told them, " you didn't choose me; I chose you!" Just 12... That's about as close to God revealing predestination as it gets. Yet one was predestinated as a devil, and they all wondered in their hearts if it was them.

So, I hope that at least one person gets it. Yes, there is predestination, but nobody is told what their predestination is. Thus, we must have faith and walk with him as if it is critical every day.

 

[Charlie24]

While Renniks and I are going round and round on this, I want to say 2 things: 1st, I appreciate your efforts and dedication, Renniks. A disagreement is certainly not a disapproval.

2nd: I've said this many times on this topic and I want to say it again... Whether you believe in predestination or free will: it really doesn't matter one bit! It should in no way impact your walk in Christ or your belief overall. The reason why is simple to me, but rarely am I able to explain it so people understand.

If you believe in free will (which I don't for the most part) you are of the mindset that you must contend daily for the faith delivered. Fine! That is biblical.

If you believe in predestination (as I do), its really no different. You still must contend daily for the faith that was delivered. HERE IS WHY: God doesn't give diplomna's or class rings early! Even if you believe in predestination and you are currently hot for God, you don't know what state you will be in tomorrow. Matthew 10:22 says we have to endure to the end to be saved.

In short, God does predestinate, he works all things according to his will and he has declared the end from the beginning. Those are all Biblical statements; however, he doesn't tell us who is predestinated. He gives the despription and qualifications, but not the names. So overall, the knowledge of predestination is useless in terms of our faith and walk.

Jesus chose 12 men. He told them, " you didn't choose me; I chose you!" Just 12... That's about as close to God revealing predestination as it gets. Yet one was predestinated as a devil, and they all wondered in their hearts if it was them.

So, I hope that at least one person gets it. Yes, there is predestination, but nobody is told what their predestination is. Thus, we must have faith and walk with him as if it is critical every day.

Predestination is not that God picks or chooses who will be saved, He already knows who will be saved, He knew exactly who would choose Christ and who will not before man was created.

We are predestined to the plan of God to be conformed into the image of Christ. This is the plan the Godhead planned before man was created. Man must come by way of this plan, he must come through Christ.

Predestination has been taken completely out of context to the nature of God!

The premise of "whosoever will" runs like a river from Genesis through Revelation. The invitation for all mankind is undisputable.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Predestination is not that God picks or chooses who will be saved, He already knows who will be saved, He knew exactly who would choose Christ and who will not before man was created.

We are predestined to the plan of God to be conformed into the image of Christ. This is the plan the Godhead planned before man was created. Man must come by way of this plan, he must come through Christ.

Predestination has been taken completely out of context to the nature of God!

The premise of "whosoever will" runs like a river from Genesis through Revelation. The invitation for all mankind is undisputable.

I have to laugh at the though people think it ,just be predestination or free will and it can’t be both,

predestination is in the word, it’s real, for someone to say it is not real is just wrong

but free will is there also, whoever calls, whoever answers, whoever believes.

it’s all over, god predestines based on our free will, not inspite or against it,

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception

Myth, or no myth?
When Christ died, He "died for all", and tasted "death for every one". (2 Cor. 5:14; Hebrews 2:9) It had to be the second death that He "tasted", because what we call death, the Bible calls "sleep", which everyone experiences except those who will be translated (John 11:11-13; 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). Therefore there is no reason why anyone should at last die the second death except that he has resisted or rejected the salvation already given him "in Christ" (Hebrews 2:3; the Greek word 'neglect' in the KJV means 'despise' ...see Matthew 22:5)
At Christ's baptism, the Father accepted the human race in His Son. (Matt. 3:17) Thus He is already the Savior of all men (John 4:42) no one can any longer doubt that the Lord has accepted him or her 'in Christ'. But Christ is "especially" the Savior "of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).
Our salvation does not depend on our initiating a relationship with Him, it depends on our believing/responding to the relationship He has already initiated with us.
Christ has abolished death, the second death, (2 Timothy 1:10) for "every one", believers and unbelievers, for He has brought life, and for those who believe, He has also brought "immortality".
In Romans 5:15-18 Paul sets forth what Christ accomplished on the cross. Let me offer an analogy. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 illustrates that "verdict of acquittal" or "justification" for "all men" . Lincoln granted every slave in the confederate territories a legal freedom. But no-one could experience it until
1. He heard the good news and
2. Let it motivate him to walk out into liberty.
So the blood of the cross has brought everyone legal freedom from sin and its eternal consequences. Our part is to believe.
So Christ has accomplished something for every human being that has ever lived. He died the second death for "every man" and thus elected "all men" to be saved. In that sense, it is true that "He saved the world".
As one writer put it...with His own blood Christ has signed the emancipation papers for the whole race.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

What is the gospel???

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

When we shar the gospel, with whomsoever will hear, we can be confident that Christ died for that person, and that by simple faith he or she may lay hold of eternal life. We need have no fear that the person we are sharing the gospel with may be a part of some group of people who God in His infinite wisdom set aside and has predetermined to punish and destroy. Such a duplicitous God is not the God we serve.

 

[Renniks]

That's right... Many are called. Few are chosen.

Because they chose not to come.

 

[Renniks]

No, they don't choose to be sheep. Not only that, they don't get to chose whose sheep they are.

John 10:25-27 KJV
believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. [26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Verse 26 did not say ye are not my sheep because ye believe not. It says they believe not because they are not Jesus's sheep. But they are still sheep: not goats, not camels, not kitty cats, not elephants. They aren't even leopards who can't change their spots. They are sheep.

Whose sheep are they then? I think you are taking a parable too literally.
They aren't his sheep because they ( the jews) were not taught by the Father. Whose fault was that?

 

[FHII]

Predestination is not that God picks or chooses who will be saved, He already knows who will be saved, He knew exactly who would choose Christ and who will not before man was created.

"Foreknowledge" is God knowing who will be saved. "Predestination" is not the same. Break down the word: "pre" means before. "Destination" is a planned journey. Ephesians 1 is an important chapter in understanding predestination, and it says God woks all things according to the council of his own will.

Predestination has been taken completely out of context to the nature of God!

I absolutely disagree. It is totally in line with the Biblical account of God's nature. It is not in line with the traditional nature that man says is God's nature... Which basically makes God to resemble Mr. Rogers.

The premise of "whosoever will" runs like a river from Genesis through Revelation. The invitation for all mankind is undisputable.

And that "whosoever will" is an identification mark, not some kind of open invitation. Yes, it applies to everyone Especially after Paul's ministry, but its meant to more so show the qualities of the Children of God. In other words, its more of an identification; less of an invitation.

all over, god predestines based on our free will, not inspite or against it,

Again, predestination is based on God's will; not ours.
Ephesians 1:11 KJV
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[FHII]

Because they chose not to come.

No... The Bible says they don't come because they are not his sheep. If they were his sheep, they would hear his voice and follow.

John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"

Again, predestination is based on God's will; not ours.

it is Gods will that whoever calls out, whoever believes whoever allows him in, whoever recieved him, is predestined to be his child

your right it is based on Gods will, Gods will is that we chose to say yes, vs choosing to say no

 

[Renniks]

No... The Bible says they don't come because they are not his sheep. If they were his sheep, they would hear his voice and follow.

John 10:26-27 KJV
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

He was telling the Jews this because they had had every opportunity to understand he was the messiah but most didn't see it. You think he was just tormenting them for being destined for hell? No, he was being evangelistic, even if they were too hardened to understand at that time, some would get it later, after the resurrection. They were not predestined for hell, they were hardened by thier choices. And when he calls the diciples his chosen, that's not about us.