The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[FHII]

So, do you discount 1 Timothy 2:4 with similar reasoning?

Yes, because I don't read 1 Timothy 2:4 in a vacuum, nor did Paul intend it to be read as such.

So you tell me: will all men be saved? Will all men come to the knowledge of truth? Jesus himself said that ain't going to happen.

 

[Tong2020]

In my view, Jesus, by giving His life and dying at the cross, had done a lot of things through it. Among others, was offer it as a sacrifice of atonement for the sin of the world, and as a sin offering for the forgiveness of sin of those whom the Father had given Him (both the Jew and the Gentile).

With regards atonement, He died for all the world. With regards forgiveness of sin, He died for His sheep, His church, His people, the elect, the chosen, the children of God, those born of the Spirit, the children of promise.

Tong
R1972

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes. Why would I not? Eapecially if the preacher spent 2/3rds of the sermon railing on ungodly men who's damnation lingereth not.

Have you read the whole book? Seriously, because Peter spent the entire 2nd chapter railing on people and a good portion of the 3rd chapter doing the same. He even said they are going to be judged and damned.

Jesus's death is enough for all of mankind, but its for his own... Not everyone is going to be saved.

Yes, because I don't read 1 Timothy 2:4 in a vacuum, nor did Paul intend it to be read as such.

So you tell me: will all men be saved? Will all men come to the knowledge of truth? Jesus himself said that ain't going to happen.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He gave Himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6). He wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

However, He has also given a degree of sovereignty to man, i.e. free will (Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17).

So not everyone appropriates what Jesus did for them.

That He did it for them whether they appropriate it or not is a fact of holy scripture.

 

[Renniks]

Yes. Why would I not? Eapecially if the preacher spent 2/3rds of the sermon railing on ungodly men who's damnation lingereth not.

Have you read the whole book? Seriously, because Peter spent the entire 2nd chapter railing on people and a good portion of the 3rd chapter doing the same. He even said they are going to be judged and damned.

Jesus's death is enough for all of mankind, but its for his own... Not everyone is going to be saved.

That makes no sense. Of course everyone isn't going to be saved, because not everyone responds to God. And he spent a lot of time railing on false teachers to assure that the people knew what to do to be saved and remain saved. The " they" is us if we fall into falsehoods or fail to understand the gospel.

 

[marksman]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

That is one way of looking at those verses. And it is not too difficult to come to that conclusion. The problem is that you have focussed on one aspect only regarding salvation. As we know, there are plenty more verses in scripture that would deny what you said is right. This is a case of where we need the whole counsel of God, not just part of it.

There are such things as foreknowledge and predestination that come into the equation and have to be included in any discussion of salvation and the church.

Plus the topic of free will. So you see one cannot say that verse says/means this or this verse says/means this until you have explored the whole counsel of God. Once you have done this invariably you end up with a different view to the one you already hold.

With all due respect, a topic of this nature needs a comprehensive look into it as to do otherwise may mean leaving the wrong impression of what is actually being taught.

A friend of mine came to me and said he believed that everyone is going to be saved. What did I think? Knowing this guy as I do, I said that the scriptures says that God is not willing that any should perish so that might indicate yes, he is going to save everyone. However, that is totally insufficient to do justice to the topic as we need to know all that the scripture teaches on this subject, not just one verse.

I would suggest that your verses and comment are a good introduction to the subject matter but you need to go further and search the whole counsel of God.

 

[Tong2020]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Going through the thread, many here have shown you passages that speaks of Jesus dying for the whole world. Now, scriptures don't contradict scriptures. That only means that the passages you quoted speaks of Christ's sacrificial death accomplishing one thing and the others accomplishing another. In my view, the passages you considered speaks of Jesus' sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin for His sheep, the church of God, His people. Those passages given by others on the other hand speaks of Jesus' sacrifice for atonement of sin of the world.

Tong
R1973

 

[kcnalp]

The vast majority will burn in Hell. Jesus said so!

MT 7 Narrow is the way to life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[brightfame52]

Why don't you tell me...

Duh I have already, read the post.

 

[brightfame52]

It makes perfect sense and is no contradiction.

Sounds unreasonable.

 

[brightfame52]

Correct which means there is a choice.

You seeing things, nothing there about choice. Since when does a sheep choose it's shepherd anyway? What you are saying isn't there and doesnt make sense.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If we do not believe in the Jesus Christ, that by His obedience alone, many shalll be made righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of Holy scripture. His obedience alone, as in the obedience of ONE, shal make many to be righteous.

If we include, our Faith, our repentance, anything we do, water baptism and etc, or any act of obedience of ours, to constitute us righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of scripture and the accomplishment of His obedience unto death.129

 

[brightfame52]

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Concerning this verse, there are some that miss a very important point. The Lord has a promise, in which he is not slack in. He is longsuffering. He wants all to come to repentance. That's true, but who is it for? The answer is "us-ward". That's not everyone. Peter addressed this letter to a specific audience: those of like, precious faith. (See the first two verses of the epistle).

"All" means all, UNLESS a condition is placed upon it. Peter clearly placed a condition on "all". If you have doubt about that read the full chapter and the previous one wher Peter is describing the punishment for ungodly men.

Exactly ! The Elect of God 1 Pet 1:1-2 or them who will be given like precious faith 2 Pet 1:1

 

[Renniks]

You seeing things, nothing there about choice. Since when does a sheep choose it's shepherd anyway? What you are saying isn't there and doesnt make sense.

The verse says that whoever can enter through Christ 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.
Why do you want to reduce it to a pre-chosen few? That's something you are adding to scripture because of your own presuppositions.

 

[Renniks]

The vast majority will burn in Hell. Jesus said so!

MT 7 Narrow is the way to life and FEW there be who find it.

The fact that people can find it contradicts Calvinism. That's plain as day. If Calvinism is correct, no one seeks and finds God, he just irresistibly implants faith in them.

 

[FHII]

And he spent a lot of time railing on false teachers to assure that the people knew what to do to be saved and remain saved. The " they" is us if we fall into falsehoods or fail to understand the gospel.

That is close to accurate. It was actually Peter telling his audience to be aware of false prophets so they wouldn't infect them. The "they" isn't us; its the false prophets (whom are described as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed). We are to stay away from them.

Even so, it does not change the fact that the promise is to "us-ward".

 

[justbyfaith]

Sounds unreasonable.

And yet, it isn't.

 

[Renniks]

That is close to accurate. It was actually Peter telling his audience to be aware of false prophets so they wouldn't infect them. The "they" isn't us; its the false prophets (whom are described as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed). We are to stay away from them.

Even so, it does not change the fact that the promise is to "us-ward".

And Us is anyone. And if we can't become "them" then what is the reason for warning us?

 

[FHII]

And Us is anyone. And if we can't become "them" then what is the reason for warning us?

No, "us" isn't anyone, and more to the point, us isn't everyone. Now, I will agree that the only qualification is to be chosen by God. Its not based on what we do and who we are except that we will respond to the call (remember Matthew 22:14. Many are called but few are chosen) and endure to the end.

You are correct in that 2 Peter 2 is a warning to not become like the false prophets. In the interest of keeping the post short, I did not elaborate. However, the difference between what you are saying and what Peter was saying is that Peter was warning that we should stay away from false teachers/prophets ro begin with. There was still an us and them.

 

[Renniks]

No, "us" isn't anyone, and more to the point, us isn't everyone. Now, I will agree that the only qualification is to be chosen by God. Its not based on what we do and who we are except that we will respond to the call (remember Matthew 22:14. Many are called but few are chosen) and endure to the end.

You are correct in that 2 Peter 2 is a warning to not become like the false prophets. In the interest of keeping the post short, I did not elaborate. However, the difference between what you are saying and what Peter was saying is that Peter was warning that we should stay away from false teachers/prophets ro begin with. There was still an us and them.

The difference is that you apparently think some are chosen to be saved and some are chosen to be the wicked. We get to decide whether we will be " us" or " them"

 

[CadyandZoe]

The verse says that whoever can enter through Christ 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.
Why do you want to reduce it to a pre-chosen few? That's something you are adding to scripture because of your own presuppositions.

How do you define "few"? The sentence is a conditional, with the logical possibility that none will enter through the Jesus gate. Right? Jesus isn't saying one way or the other whether anyone will actually enter through the Jesus gate. His singular point is this. If perchance someone should enter through the Jesus gate, that person will be saved.

Jesus isn't saying anything about why someone would be motivated to enter through the Jesus gate. He isn't suggesting that the choice to enter is arbitrary or even based on personal preference. Remember, he tells us that the way is narrow and few go that way. In other words, the way is either hidden to most people or not desirable to most people.

It's like this. Sometimes our choices are easy because the reward for making the right choice is pleasant and immediately beneficial. But some of our choices are not pleasant and not immediately beneficial. If I choose to bench press 400 kg, I will need to suffer the pain and struggle of lifting weight over a long period of time and the reward of all that work comes years after I begin and maybe never.

Entering the Jesus gate is like weight lifting training. It's going to be painful for a long time and the reward is neither immediate or even located in this lifetime. I suppose we could say that it's a free-will choice but believe me, it's much more profound than deciding to take a walk in the park.