The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[brightfame52]

I see where you are coming from, I need to get my books out and study that and similar scriptures in the next few days, but for now, it is light out time. There are many strands in scripture and they all need to come together in unison as a complete whole. Good night.

Okay take your time

 

[justbyfaith]

Considering all the scriptures you posted, we find that the requirements of salvation are:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47 KJV)

On condition we remain steadfast until the end:
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6 KJV)

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:14 KJV)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Matthew 10:22 KJV)

Luke 8:13 tells us those who fall away initially believed.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13 KJV)

My conclusion from these scriptures is different from yours.

First of all, I consider that the nature of the life that is given is that it is everlasting.

So, the verses on enduring to the end are defined by this rather than this being defined by the verses on enduring.

Iow, if we have the life that is promised, we will endure to the end; not, if we endure to the end, we will have the life that is promised.

Conclusion:
1) No one can be certain of their salvation until they meet with the Lord in Glory.

Except that you are not taking into account John 5:24 (kjv)...which tells us that salvation begins at the moment of first faith...and/or 1 John 5:13...which tells us that we can know (right now) that we have eternal life.

Yes .. its what the Bible says - that the early Christian Churches spoke Greek - were in Greece - and were Greek - Letter the Corinthians - Greeks . Letter to the Thessolonians Greece Thessaloniki .. this is in northern Greece - Macedonia

By the time of Paul's ministry to them, Thessalonica was not any longer in the Grecian Empire but in the Roman Empire.

At the time of the Roman Empire, about 50 A.D.,

The Roman Empire did not begin in 50 A.D.

Basically, one side believes that salvation is instant and irrevocable.

The other side believes that salvation can be received and later forfeited.

Personally, I believe something in the middle...that salvation can be received and later forfeited...but that one can come to a place in their faith where they can no longer, ever lose their salvation.

This passage did not come from Paul's hand -

Would that not make it more inspired from your perspective, than if it were from Paul's hand?

 

[Renniks]

NO mention of every land creature being killed .. all good in the hood :) And only an idiot thinks someone has to know every passage in the Bible from Memory to "know the Bible"..

Uncalled for insulting again. Who said you have to know everything by heart? But if you studied it as much as you claim, you would know these basic facts.

 

[Renniks]

Your system of justice is quite warped .. violating Gods Law - that children are not to be killed for the sins of their parents .. This picture of Jesus turns him into a flip flopper as well. I just don't buy the irrational flip flopping God idea.

Still have no idea what you're talking about. What is my system of justice? Why would children be killed for parents sins? How and where is God changing? He changed tactics but not who he is. That's his perogative.

 

[Heyzeus]

So you ignored me question

I must have missed it .. what question was that ..

 

[Heyzeus]

Uncalled for insulting again. Who said you have to know everything by heart? But if you studied it as much as you claim, you would know these basic facts.

I didn't insult you .. I just defined a term.. if you fit this term .. not my fault. If you wish to debate the definition of term .. sure.. I see you have started.

" The basic facts" you say .. specific details about what Jesus claimed with respect to Genesis .. sure .. like everyone knows this .. and can recite chapter and verse.. ..

you insult yourself ... you throw out insults .. and then project your actions onto others when called out on your actions.. as I have done.

 

[BarneyFife]

When you make believing a condition of the application of justification/salvation then you make it a work.

Absolute rubbish. Ever hear of John 3:16?

 

[Heyzeus]

By the time of Paul's ministry to them, Thessalonica was not any longer in the Grecian Empire but in the Roman Empire.
The Roman Empire did not begin in 50 A.D.

HOLY Carp ... Either you are intentionally being disingenuous or .. " not nice is the other option"

Just because the Romans took over .. does not mean there were not Greeks living in Greece .. Many States still functioned as their former states under Rome in any case - relative autonomy as long as they paid taxes and allowed for conscription.

Done.. will no longer respond on this topic .. you should be ashamed for your unwillingness to accept correction.

Paul preached to the Greeks .. and some of the first Christian communities among the Gentiles were the people of Greece.

You are seething with anger ... and it is distorting your ability to accept reality.

 

[Cooper]

My conclusion from these scriptures is different from yours.

First of all, I consider that the nature of the life that is given is that it is everlasting.

So, the verses on enduring to the end are defined by this rather than this being defined by the verses on enduring.

Iow, if we have the life that is promised, we will endure to the end; not, if we endure to the end, we will have the life that is promised.



Except that you are not taking into account John 5:24 (kjv)...which tells us that salvation begins at the moment of first faith...and/or 1 John 5:13...which tells us that we can know (right now) that we have eternal life.



By the time of Paul's ministry to them, Thessalonica was not any longer in the Grecian Empire but in the Roman Empire.


The Roman Empire did not begin in 50 A.D.



Personally, I believe something in the middle...that salvation can be received and later forfeited...but that one can come to a place in their faith where they can no longer, ever lose their salvation.



Would that not make it more inspired from your perspective, than if it were from Paul's hand?

For the faithful it is life everlasting correct, but nobody has taken into account our own free will as exemplified by the Israilites who turned to false gods and Adam and Eve who exercised their own free will. That is what the backsliders with the stony hearts did and this is why OSAS is a nonsense because it does not take into account our wayward nature.
.

 

[brightfame52]

Absolute rubbish. Ever hear of John 3:16?

That verse doesn't make believing a condition to get saved. That's salvation by works by what a person does!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

There is no free pass through the pearly gates .. all must pass judgement.

I would beg to differ.....there just happens to “ be” a “ free pass” through them Gates.....” Salvation is a GIFT ( gifts are free, right?) GIVEN to those that DO NOT WORK for it.....strike one...
You want to talk about “Judgement?—— If you are Believer in Paul’s Gospel, given to him by Jesus, God put all of the Judgement due to you , and put it upon His Son, and then He did even more —- He took Christ’s Perfection and put it on your Account——- He got your Sin and you got His Righteousness .....some kind of deal, huh? To “ cash in” on this incredible Deal , all you have to do is REST in the Gospel Of Grace. Plus Nothing. You don’t even know what I am talking about , though.....that is why you are Lost....You don’t really Believe the Gospel That Saves, If just simply believed....That Gospel says that “ Jesus died for your Sins”..... you don’t believe that.You need to pray for God to “ open your eyes”, Blindman.......

 

[justbyfaith]

Done.. will no longer respond on this topic .. you should be ashamed for your unwillingness to accept correction.

If only that were true. I am certain that you will continue to post in this thread.

Also, I wanted to respond: "As if the concept of whether the Bible lands were in Greece or Rome were a matter of spiritual importance, in such a manner as to affect our eternity."

Correction is something that is done to put someone back on the straight and narrow path when they have gone astray...

My belief that Paul lived in the age of the Roman Empire is in no way indicative of having departed from the narrow way. It is merely and only a matter of getting your facts straight.

 

[justbyfaith]

For the faithful it is life everlasting correct, but nobody has taken into account our own free will as exemplified by the Israilites who turned to false gods and Adam and Eve who exercised their own free will. That is what the backsliders with the stony hearts did and this is why OSAS is a nonsense because it does not take into account our wayward nature.

Those who have their hearts as good soil have honest and good hearts (Luke 8:15).

So our wayward nature is not a factor in their lives.

They have bee sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

The indwelling Holy Spirit motivates us to live the way that the Lord would have us live all the way to the end of our lives and into eternity (1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

I would beg to differ.....there just happens to “ be” a “ free pass” through them Gates.....” Salvation is a GIFT ( gifts are free, right?) GIVEN to those that DO NOT WORK for it.....strike one...
You want to talk about “Judgement?—— If you are Believer in Paul’s Gospel, given to him by Jesus, God put all of the Judgement due to you , and put it upon His Son, and then He did even more —- He took Christ’s Perfection and put it on your Account——- He got your Sin and you got His Righteousness .....some kind of deal, huh? To “ cash in” on this incredible Deal , all you have to do is REST in the Gospel Of Grace. Plus Nothing. You don’t even know what I am talking about , though.....that is why you are Lost....You don’t really Believe the Gospel That Saves, If just simply believed....That Gospel says that “ Jesus died for your Sins”..... you don’t believe that.You need to pray for God to “ open your eyes”, Blindman.......

In order to "cash in", you must repent of your sins.

Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees.

Eze 33:11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15, If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17, Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18, When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19, But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

I think that you owe me $1,000...but I do not require it of you...because to do so might be a sin.

Now aren't you glad that I am of the opinion that the one who is born again of the Holy Spirit "doth not" and "cannot" commit sin (1 John 3:9)?

 

[K9Buck]

This thread is needed because eternal security advocates tend to ignore relevant biblical contexts and verse clusters. The thread will initially focus on the 2nd half of the first century (Revelation and then Hebrews) and then shift to Paul and finally to Jesus. In the process, it will be demonstrated that the election and perseverance texts cited by the OSAS advocates are actually irrelevant to the issue. To avoid chaotic discussion please follow my lead and focus your remarks on the biblical book currently under discussion.

1. THE BOOK OF REVELATION

The case against OSAS in Revelation is clearcut and decisive.

“If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes and I will not erase your name from the Book of Life (3:6).”

The threat of erasure implies that the church of Sardis already has their names written in the Book of Life! To prevent the loss of their salvation, they must “conquer,” that is, they must heed the Lord's threat: “Remember then what you have received and heard; obey it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief (3:3).” These Christians must persevere in their faith like “those who have not soiled their garments (3:4).”

In the letter to the church of Smyrna the need to “conquer” is again stressed as the way to avoid losing one's salvation: “Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death (2:11).” And how can Christians conquer? “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life (3:10).” Again, the implication is that if they are not faithful, their names that are already written in the Book of Life will be erased and they will forfeit “the crown of life.” Remember, the Greek word for “faith” also means “faithful.”

 

[Heyzeus]

If only that were true. I am certain that you will continue to post in this thread.

Also, I wanted to respond: "As if the concept of whether the Bible lands were in Greece or Rome were a matter of spiritual importance, in such a manner as to affect our eternity."

Correction is something that is done to put someone back on the straight and narrow path when they have gone astray...

My belief that Paul lived in the age of the Roman Empire is in no way indicative of having departed from the narrow way. It is merely and only a matter of getting your facts straight.

Now you are projecting - you were the one making a big deal .. crying NO NO NO .. in your effort to distance the Eastern Orthodox Church from Paul .. in desperate hopes of putting Martin Luther above the priority of this Church .. the Church founded by Paul rather than Martin.

If Sola Fide is no longer a matter of spiritual importance to you - that is your concern .. not mine.

 

[Cooper]

Those who have their hearts as good soil have honest and good hearts (Luke 8:15).

So our wayward nature is not a factor in their lives.

They have bee sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

The indwelling Holy Spirit motivates us to live the way that the Lord would have us live all the way to the end of our lives and into eternity (1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6).

This is God's promise to us who will never leave us or forsake us. God is faithful and by selecting certain passages and rejecting those scriptures that warn against backsliding and apostasy the cults have fallen into the hands of Satan who has lulled people into a false sense of security by which they can lead lives of licencesness. This is Satan's trap and that is why it is so important to study the whole of scripture. God is faithful, but we are not and as God has not put us in chains we are able to break the seal, believing falsely that we will be all right. Do not forget that we need to walk in paths of righteousness the whole of our life.

Combine your teaching on eternal security with your teaching in post 1374 and you will be getting nearer to the truth.
.

 

[Heyzeus]

My belief that Paul lived in the age of the Roman Empire is in no way indicative of having departed from the narrow way. It is merely and only a matter of getting your facts straight.

What the freak are you talking about .. accusing me of something I never said - completely made up absurd nonsense in hopes of deflecting from your own ineptitude. A case study in projection - of your failings onto others.

Your claim that the Church of the Thessalonians that Paul was writing to was not the Greeks .. was simply false. You continuing to defend this claim is absurd, obtuse and disingenuous.

You have been corrected ... along with weighed and measured - and found wanting.. desperate to run from the teachings of Jesus - and down the broad path of Man made dogma.

 

[justbyfaith]

What the freak are you talking about .. accusing me of something I never said - completely made up absurd nonsense in hopes of deflecting from your own ineptitude. A case study in projection - of your failings onto others.

Your claim that the Church of the Thessalonians that Paul was writing to was not the Greeks .. was simply false. You continuing to defend this claim is absurd, obtuse and disingenuous.

You have been corrected ... along with weighed and measured - and found wanting.. desperate to run from the teachings of Jesus - and down the broad path of Man made dogma.

How is the issue of whether they belonged to the Greek Empire at that time, or the Roman Empire, a salvational issue?

You presume that you have corrected me on something...I get that.

But if you have indeed corrected me, the issue on which you have corrected me on has nothing to do with wisdom; but rather it is a mere correction concerning bare facts that have nothing to do with salvation or how I am going to live my life.

Iow, it is a correction that has no relevance to anything that I care about.

And also, it is no correction...

Because the true history of the matter bears out that while the people that Paul preached to were at one time part of the Grecian Empire and even spoke and wrote and read koine Greek...yet they existed in the Roman Empire and not the Greek Empire. For it was the Roman Empire that was in the control of the world at the time of Paul's preaching.

I know this because I understand my history from the book of Daniel.

Rome was the final Empire that ruled the world before the first advent of our Lord...The Grecian Empire before that...The Medo-Persian Empire before that...and the Babylonian Empire before that.

 

[Heyzeus]

How is the issue of whether they belonged to the Greek Empire at that time, or the Roman Empire, a salvational issue?

You presume that you have corrected me on something...I get that.

But if you have indeed corrected me, the issue on which you have corrected me on has nothing to do with wisdom; but rather it is a mere correction concerning bare facts that have nothing to do with salvation or how I am going to live my life.

Iow, it is a correction that has no relevance to anything that I care about.

And also, it is no correction...

Because the true history of the matter bears out that while the people that Paul preached to were at one time part of the Grecian Empire and even spoke and wrote and read koine Greek...yet they existed in the Roman Empire and not the Greek Empire. For it was the Roman Empire that was in the control of the world at the time of Paul's preaching.

I know this because I understand my history from the book of Daniel.

Rome was the final Empire that ruled the world before the first advent of our Lord...The Grecian Empire before that...The Medo-Persian Empire before that...and the Babylonian Empire before that.

Of course they existed in the Roman Empire - that has nothing to do with the issue .. the Greek people were also part of the Bryzantine Empire which came later .. as was the Eastern Orthodox Church no one disputes that.

You were claiming that these Churches were not in what is now known as Greece .. and claiming these were not Greek peoples.. in an effort to show that the Church .. that same Eastern Orthodox Church .. was not preached to by Paul .. in a huge effort to minimize the importance of this Church with Respect to Paul ...

Yet .. poor Luke .. we find out that this was one of the first Christian communities founded by Paul .. but alas .. they do not abide by your beloved man made Sola Fide doctrine ..

and why on earth you are talking about Daniel in a sola fide conversation .. only the winds of the spirits know .. them voices you got going on .. but methinks they are not good spirits.