The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS
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How did I insult you ? and what Chapter and verse were you looking for.
I think you completely missed the boat here ... Your story and the lady sitting next to you in the Church aisle - are going to have different beliefs on the topic of "God's Story" - never mind moving to a different church - to a different denomination .. and so on.
Most of Christianity does not even share a similar version of your story - in fact most of Protestantism does not share your love for Literalism..
From a Global Perspective - the fundamentalist Bible belt in the US- and a small following in other nations - Pentecostals have managed to get a presence in most places where religion is allowed - but they are not the majority in any of these places .. and most a small minority..
It's not if one wishes, it's what scripture says is true. The Word was God. In the beginning. Always, one with the Father. And if the Genisis account is wrong, then Jesus was wrong for treating Genisis as literal history.
The one you keep going on about ...killing children.
And you either don't read what you wrote, or you don't see your constant putting others down which is kinda scary.
not putting you down - explaining what follows from your belief.. do you want me to go step by step ?
I am the one who gets constantly demonized in here .. as the majority share your literalist perspective - but I can handle the heat.
You want to say that Jesus and God are the same - equal in all ways - no difference .. OK .. then that was Jesus - doing the dirty deeds. You can't handle the thought of Jesus dolling out OT style punishment ? .. Ohh .. but Jesus isn't like that anymore now is he .. turned a new leaf e did ... and good thing too. Jesus didn't love the world so much back then tho did he ?
Not much love was felt when supposed Church of Jesus got power now was there. ... was this God's grand Plan ? .. was Jesus back to his old ways ?
OK .. hmmm .. once Jesus is elevated to the status of the Most High .. and my Church gets power .. then will the 1000 years of horror begin .. led by my Church ... surely this was God's grand Plan ... and from this era comes the dogma you worship..
cept one branch of Christianity .. What is referred to today as Orthodox - who managed to not engage in the horrors of the Catholic branch of the Universal Church.
This branch also believes in Faith - but works are there too
This branch also believes in the Trinity .. but slightly different than the Catholic version .. and they have maintained a little of the mysticism of the old church .. the last remnants of subordinatism just under the surface.
Perhaps there are not more than one way to skin a cat .. perhaps there are .. spin the wheel .. which one do you choose ?
What literal history in genesis did Jesus treat as such ? Don't recall Jesus mentioning much about the Flood . you have brought up an interesting point though..
What does Jesus mention about the OT that you were thinking about ?
Rom 1:21, Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22, Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Jde 1:14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jde 1:15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jde 1:16, These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Rom 1:22, Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Jde 1:14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jde 1:15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jde 1:16, These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Once a man has humbled himself before the Lord in this way, he becomes a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)) and the love of the Lord is shed abroad in his heart (Romans 5:5). Sin is rendered dead within him (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over his behaviour (Romans 6:14). I do believe that Christ cleanses the inside of the cup and platter so that the outside may also be clean (Matthew 23:25-28)
That was not my claim exactly. I claimed that Paul did not preach in the islands of Greece. There were most assuredly Greeks who lived in Turkey where Paul preached.
Yes (John 5:24 (kjv)).
Abraham himself was justified by faith alone (Genesis 15:6).
You have also said that the majority do not believe in the literalist perspective. Which one is it?
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It is only those who are of the good soil who can lay hold of specific promises in God's word that promise eternal security.
Those who are of the other three kinds of soil, while they may believe, they do not believe with a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22).
The Luke 8:13 believer has a shallow, nominal, or lukewarm faith...not the John 6:47 type of faith that secures everlasting life.
Faith in Jesus is something that produces righteousness in the heart...and that righteousness is salvation.
The works that I do because of that righteousness do not save me; but I am saved through the faith that produces the righteousness...and the righteousness is salvation.
If someone has that righteousness which is of God by faith (see Philippians 3:9), whether their lives produce works or not is a secondary issue and even a moot point.
What matters is whether or not they have the righteousness of faith.
If I call upon the name of the Lord, and live fifty years but in that fifty years there is no good work that the Lord has prepared for me to walk in...I will have no reward as concerning good works that I have done...but I will still be "saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).
Take it a step further. If there was a work that Jesus prepared for me to walk in, but I do not walk in it; but I walk in other works that Jesus prepared for me...does the work that I failed to walk in exclude me from the kingdom? What if I walk in no other good works? Why is there a difference if there is one?
How many good works does it take before I can say that my works have saved me? What happens if I know to do something good but fail to do it? Am I condemned for that reason? What if I do other good works later? Do those good works save me? Why does my failure to do the first good work not condemn me?
If I do many good works and there is one last work that Jesus wanted me to do and then I fail to do it, does that exclude me from the kingdom?
Are we 'saved by grace, after all that ye can do"?
How does John 5:24 (kjv) apply to that concept?
How does Ephesians 2:8-9 apply to that concept?
The works that I do because of that righteousness do not save me; but I am saved through the faith that produces the righteousness...and the righteousness is salvation.
If someone has that righteousness which is of God by faith (see Philippians 3:9), whether their lives produce works or not is a secondary issue and even a moot point.
What matters is whether or not they have the righteousness of faith.
If I call upon the name of the Lord, and live fifty years but in that fifty years there is no good work that the Lord has prepared for me to walk in...I will have no reward as concerning good works that I have done...but I will still be "saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).
Take it a step further. If there was a work that Jesus prepared for me to walk in, but I do not walk in it; but I walk in other works that Jesus prepared for me...does the work that I failed to walk in exclude me from the kingdom? What if I walk in no other good works? Why is there a difference if there is one?
How many good works does it take before I can say that my works have saved me? What happens if I know to do something good but fail to do it? Am I condemned for that reason? What if I do other good works later? Do those good works save me? Why does my failure to do the first good work not condemn me?
If I do many good works and there is one last work that Jesus wanted me to do and then I fail to do it, does that exclude me from the kingdom?
Are we 'saved by grace, after all that ye can do"?
How does John 5:24 (kjv) apply to that concept?
How does Ephesians 2:8-9 apply to that concept?
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You claimed that Corinthians - Thessolonians -- and so on . were not Greeks .. and not in Greece - now you are trying to backtrack .. but how does this relate to the Eastern Orthodox Church ?? you have completely lost yourself in your own ignorance. The Greeks are the original Church of Paul -- was Greeks and Greek speaking people to whom he preached to ..mostly .. sure there were others .. but again .. how is The Greek Orthodox Church not way older and more connected to the sources that Luther who comes out of the 1000 yr horror show 1300 years later..
You simply don't know what you are talking about with respect to the early church - and you have not done your homework..
This was already proven false - you have no clue what you are talking about. Prove your claim .. quote the passage and show how this supports your claim .. ..
What do you mean "which one is it ? .. I have never stated the majority holds the literalist perspective because they don't .. not even the majority of Protestantism holds the strict literalist perspective that the Fundamentalists do.
Member one time when we had to ex communicate one dem Churches that went rogue - went Pentecostal.. speaking in tongues ..
real lively bunch though. Then one day one interpreter said one thing about some question relating to God's will .. and another said something contradictory .. church split on 2 sides .. one of my relatives had to go in and break up the fight .. issue was resolved .. but a few years later the church was booted from the Missouri Synod.
Jesus said to The a Sinful woman who used her hair to wipe her tears from His feet......” Your FAITH has Saved you....go in peace. ” NOT included here was , “ now make sure you stop sinning “ nor “ hurry up now and get water baptized , lest you die of a heart attack first and then “ can’t “ get baptized and find yourself damned”, nor did he say, “ make sure you keep your “ Repentance Checklist “ up to date, because if you die without having repented Of ALL of your sins...you will go to Hell , despite the fact that I just told you that your Faith alone Saved you.....”
That is not support for faith alone - one lonely passage .. against a backdrop of all kinds of examples of deeds being a requirement.. it was her faith in what that saved her ? in Christs death ? obviously not as he had not died yet.. so it was her belief in the divinity of Jesus .. that allowed her sins to be forgiven .. nice .. because Jesus can forgive sins of those who are truly repentant.
There is no free pass through the pearly gates .. all must pass judgement.
I may not know everything about church history, but I know what my Bible says...
It says that the Holy Spirit forbad Paul to go and preach to Bithynia (Acts of the Apostles 16:7)...which was in the east...the descendants of those who lived in Bithynia would be the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Gen 15:6, And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This clearly says that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness...so the claim is found to be true rather than false. How you don't see this is beyond me.
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Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Cooper
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Considering all the scriptures you posted, we find that the requirements of salvation are:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47 KJV)
On condition we remain steadfast until the end:
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6 KJV)
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:14 KJV)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Matthew 10:22 KJV)
Luke 8:13 tells us those who fall away initially believed.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13 KJV)
Conclusion:
1) No one can be certain of their salvation until they meet with the Lord in Glory.
2) The faint-hearted believer who did not continue long in the faith still believed initially.
3) The unbeliever, (the atheist) CANNOT fall away because they never believed and are already lost. The people in peril are believers who lose faith, their end is worse than their beginning, it would have been better if they had never been born. As they did once believe they cannot be accused by OSAS of never believing. The teaching of OSAS that people cannot fall by the wayside as taught by Jesus in parable is false.
In summery, we are warned against losing faith, we are enjoined to believe until the end, and neither can we be certain of our salvation until we meet the Lord in Glory.
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Ferris Bueller
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James 2:22-24
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness (aka 'justified'): and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not (justified) by faith only.
Do you agree with the insertion of the words in parenthesis that I have added to these verse for clarity?
James 2:22-24
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness (aka 'justified'): and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not (justified) by faith only.
Of course .. that is what James is saying - and this is clear in the text with out insertions but - yes that is what the text means.
After discussing good works - and the "Royal Law" - Cross reference to Matt 7:12 - Golden Rule that sums up the law and the prophets - and Paul says the same somewhere in rare agreement with Brother James
James starts out with what question - ? 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
Now sure how he could have been more clear what the subject matter is. Clearly there are early Christians who have adopted such ideology - and James wants none of it... His answer is an emphatic NO.. calling such people Foolish - and stating that such a position is dead/useless -a number of times ... closing with - One is saved through works - and not by "faith only".
Even Demons believe that God is one ... and shudder.
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