Romans

[bbyrd009]

I have no idea how you would answer those questions. Or what they even mean to you.

well how bout you then
:)

 

[bbyrd009]

Okay you win. Jesus kept Gods law so we don't have to be law abiding.

narf

 

[Enoch111]

It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.

That is definitely NOT what the book of Romans teaches. Quite the opposite.

ROMANS 4: THE LAW WORKETH WRATH (v 15)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have NO idea where this comment came from.

Jesus fulfilled the law in us, doesn't mean we don't follow the law of the Spirit. It means ALL the Old Testament laws were fulfilled in Jesus.

Do you want to keep all the 600 laws of the Israelites? Of course not, that's why they were all fulfilled in Christ and now we follow the law of the Spirit.

No Christian should ever say they follow the law (Mosaic and they should never say they are "under law"). We are free in Christ, in Christ is how we walk as Jesus walked.

The spirit of the law is MORE stringent than an outward keeping of the law.
Which is more difficult - to make sure you never shoot or bludgeon someone to death or to not have anger in your heart?

Which is more stringent- to make sure you never sleep with anyone who is not your spouse or to never even have the thought or daydream of it?

 

[Agios]

The spirit of the law is MORE stringent than an outward keeping of the law.
Which is more difficult - to make sure you never shoot or bludgeon someone to death or to not have anger in your heart?

Which is more stringent- to make sure you never sleep with anyone who is not your spouse or to never even have the thought or daydream of it?

Exactly. Standards are Christ high.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Exactly. Standards are Christ high.

So then, how did He fulfill the law in you if you do not keep the law? Unless you are saying you never get angry...

 

[Agios]

So then, how did He fulfill the law in you if you do not keep the law? Unless you are saying you never get angry...

God reconciled us back to Him through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, through the blood of Christ. By faith, we now have His power in us to walk as Christ did. We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. It is the only way we can be empowered to walk as Jesus walked, there is no other way to reach the level of righteousness that is Christ's. We can do nothing without Christ.

The New Covenant law is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus, by faith, clothed in His righteousness.

In contrast, the written law is holy and just but it can never take a person to any sort of level of righteousness that God requires in a believer. A believer has His Spirit which can empower us, through faith, to now walk as Christ did (because Jesus fulfilled the written law). Jesus is our righteousness, for those who believe, this is the grace of God, again, we can not do anything without Christ.

It's all in Romans chapter 3 and 7, and 8. lol Paul talks about the written law, the law of sin and death - and the new law, the law of the Spirit (this is who we follow - not what).

We have the new law as a direct result of Christ fulfilling it, never before did this "new creation" exist - which is the believer. Never before were people empowered by the Spirit, NOW we have the ability to walk as Christ walked, riding us of the old man (not without struggle as we put to death our old nature, the old man). It's cool! We are truly a new creation!

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[FollowHim]

Okay you win. Jesus kept Gods law so we don't have to be law abiding.

There is a difference between trying and being. A beautiful painting does not have to try to be beautiful, it already is.

Scripture lays out stories of men transformed by the encounter with God. Faith or the relationship with Him changes us. Light reveals reality around us, the more you look the more you see. If you see, the delusions disappear, become pointless.

Sin has its root cause in if only..... How we value others has an affect. The law shows us our failings not our solution. Jesus laid out dwelling in Him, letting His light to let us see emotionally, spiritually, intellectually. C S Lewis put it as turning from ghosts to reality.

The cross heals, because it empowers love in our hearts to overwhelm all the other trauma and issues. Why do we strive for others recognition, when Jesus has given us His. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

well, my guess would be bc the world is not pleased with being shown up for what they rep or whatever?
I mean, why was Christ crucified, marks? And why are we called to follow by picking up our own cross?

Is it true you guys have no answer to this?
Christ was crucified to show us God forgives, at a fundamental level of who He is, and a promise of transformation that is real, that we can live and die for.

Jesus forgave people in His ministry so forgiveness is not the issue. He warned people to not sin again or things get worse. In a sense this was impossible, but it proves the point being forgiven is not the issue, change is. This is the power of love, of the foundation in Jesus, of being loved by the King.
When Christ died he was given the worst a man can receive and not die. And he got it from the best and worst man can offer. Even Peter ran away. Yet He forgave them. Very, very personal, very profound, very brutal. Imagine the disciples seeing this and yet their Lord forgave them.

This love once planted needs to show its power, by carrying others sin and pain and not flinching but forgiving. The forgiveness comes because it is love overcoming slavery to sin.

Why should anyone trust transformation if our own is meaningless?

I wonder how many of you see this? It is in your hearts, but maybe you need to put praise and love to work to see God's life to flow. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

So then, how did He fulfill the law in you if you do not keep the law? Unless you are saying you never get angry...

An emotional answer to Jesus for some is confusing, because feelings have been used as a weapon to manipulate and not to express truth and light.

I know my heart wants recognition of spiritual insight, and to be dismissed can be painful, but truth stands alone, and hurts are forgiven. We are called to follow, the next step and to learn to be open and not defend but let love overcome. It is a choice and a work of God. God bless you

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it true you guys have no answer to this?

well im sure even...marks? Has some "answer," prolly agrees with yours too, but i suggest that just for grins yall entertain the possibility that your answer may not be the right one. Now ill go read yours...

 

[FollowHim]

well im sure even...marks? Has some "answer," prolly agrees with yours too, but i suggest that just for grins yall entertain the possibility that your answer may not be the right one. Now ill go read yours...

The great thing about faith is our answers are our answers. Too many think that sharing is about agreeing or disagreeing as if there is one answer. Imagine if when we met God He gave us the answer to everything. So there would be no point in searching or discovery or even the infinite variation of expression. What I think we find hard to comprehend is an infinite answer can never by understood, encompassed, limited or defined, because it has no end. So by definition, that which is God will always have more things to experience and discover.

It is also why I do not hold the truth, definitive, but an expression of love filtered through language and my limited experience, which at best is a reflection of the infinite coloured by who I am. Paul put it we are part of Gods building, all joined together to make a whole. And I am glad we are different with our own particular nuances. God bless you

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ was crucified to show us God forgives

Jesus forgave people in His ministry so forgiveness is not the issue.

um, guess ill have to ask for a rephrase, not sure what to do with these

He warned people to not sin again or things get worse. In a sense this was impossible,

well, so you say anyway...so, in what sense is that possible?

but it proves the point being forgiven is not the issue, change is. This is the power of love, of the foundation in Jesus, of being loved by the King.
When Christ died he was given the worst a man can receive and not die. And he got it from the best and worst man can offer. Even Peter ran away. Yet He forgave them. Very, very personal, very profound, very brutal. Imagine the disciples seeing this and yet their Lord forgave them.

so wadr twice now you have said forgiveness is not the issue, and then gone on to demonstrate how it is, to my ear, so im floundering here, sorry.

This love once planted needs to show its power, by carrying others sin and pain and not flinching but forgiving. The forgiveness comes because it is love overcoming slavery to sin.

not disagreeing there, even if you seem to be contradicting yourself; i think i get where youre tryna go

Why should anyone trust transformation if our own is meaningless?

on that note i would say that in my experience those who tended toward forgiveness or "being the bigger man" in a matter were not especially benefitted by pursuing the standard "Christian" model of salvation, and those who did not tend to forgive were only made worse by it, as Scripture even reveals?

I wonder how many of you see this? It is in your hearts, but maybe you need to put praise and love to work to see God's life to flow. God bless you

hmm, that is maybe in some hearts, and i agree that what i would characterize as Gratefulness works miracles, but i gotta tell ya it is still work for me! What is usually in my heart is "why isnt every single thing perfect!" lol

anyway, some good points imo, ty

The great thing about faith is our answers are our answers.

hmm you think? I am more of a question guy, i guess; or at least my faith seems to be better expressed in questions now, dunno...i used to have answers fwiw, but now i prefer questions

It is also why I do not hold the truth, definitive, but an expression of love filtered through language and my limited experience, which at best is a reflection of the infinite coloured by who I am. Paul put it we are part of Gods building, all joined together to make a whole. And I am glad we are different with our own particular nuances. God bless you

well nice imo, nice sentiments anyway; but im pretty sure you would fail the test on that first phrase there, but maybe not

Too many think that sharing is about agreeing or disagreeing as if there is one answer. Imagine if when we met God He gave us the answer to everything. So there would be no point in searching or discovery or even the infinite variation of expression. What I think we find hard to comprehend is an infinite answer can never by understood, encompassed, limited or defined, because it has no end. So by definition, that which is God will always have more things to experience and discover.

"like"

 

[bbyrd009]

It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.

That is definitely NOT what the book of Romans teaches. Quite the opposite

so maybe a discussion in the diff in good works (pEnoch's Romans ref) and obeying the law--as opposed to being under the law even--might be in order

 

[bbyrd009]

It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.

i would agree; as opposed to "doing good works," maybe. Even though we will all be judged for our works!

iow the Puritans thought they were "doing good works" by burning "witches," the Prohibition ppl thought they were doing good by outlawing alcohol, the Suffragettes thought they were doing good by getting women the vote, The Methodists thought missions were good, etc. All surely undertaken with "good" intent right

 

[FollowHim]

um, guess ill have to ask for a rephrase, not sure what to do with these
well, so you say anyway...so, in what sense is that possible?
so wadr twice now you have said forgiveness is not the issue, and then gone on to demonstrate how it is, to my ear, so im floundering here, sorry.
not disagreeing there, even if you seem to be contradicting yourself; i think i get where youre tryna go
on that note i would say that in my experience those who tended toward forgiveness or "being the bigger man" in a matter were not especially benefitted by pursuing the standard "Christian" model of salvation, and those who did not tend to forgive were only made worse by it, as Scripture even reveals?
hmm, that is maybe in some hearts, and i agree that what i would characterize as Gratefulness works miracles, but i gotta tell ya it is still work for me! What is usually in my heart is "why isnt every single thing perfect!" lol

anyway, some good points imo, ty

hmm you think? I am more of a question guy, i guess; or at least my faith seems to be better expressed in questions now, dunno...i used to have answers fwiw, but now i prefer questions
well nice imo, nice sentiments anyway; but im pretty sure you would fail the test on that first phrase there, but maybe not

"like"

Some argue forgiveness is all that is required for eternity. But if that was the case everyone would be in Christ and no judgement. Change of the heart is essential through faith. Again some suggest we are just vessels thrown away and tortured for eternity or accepted and changed to be with Christ.

To become a new creation something substantial has to take place. And I know the hatred of those who say only faith matters, change is irrelevant.

Fools argue these points, because if we are not like Jesus we are lost. The disciples had no problem with this because they knew Jesus as a man, not a distant ideal illusion. Jesus is other, but not as the world thinks, because only with the Holy Spirit do things change. And this reality only matters to the elect, because only they see it. A little ironic but it stops arguing, because this is either real or it's not seen. God bless you

 

[charity]

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works,
lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Ephesians 2:8-10)

Hello @stunnedbygrace,

The word of God expresses this better than any man can. No disputation needed.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Enoch111]

so maybe a discussion in the diff in good works (pEnoch's Romans ref) and obeying the law--as opposed to being under the law even--might be in order

1. The nation of Israel was UNDER the Law of Moses for about 1500 years. And Christ came to fulfil the Law, and establish the New Covenant. Thus the Law of Moses is now null and void.

2. However, sinners were always justified by grace through faith, as illustrated by Abraham long before the Law came into existence. And Abel long before Abraham (Hebrews 11)

3. In spite of that many Jews (particularly the Pharisees) believed that observing the works of the Law (e.g. tithing, Sabbath observance, etc) would make them righteous (justified) before God. They were clearly mistaken.

4. The core of the Law is the Ten Commandments. And they are there to establish THE GUILT of every human being. There is not one human being who has not broken one or more of the Ten Commandments.

5. Therefore it is only by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption that sinners are saved (justified) by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9) And that leads to the New Birth.

6. Those who are saved by grace must DEMONSTRATE their genuine faith (and their New Birth) through good works, but good works do not save them (Eph 2:10). Salvation is God's GIFT to the one who believes.

This is all summed up in Ephesians 2:8-10
1. For by grace are ye saved through faith;
2. and that not of yourselves:
3. it is the gift of God:
4. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
5. For we are his workmanship,
6. created in Christ Jesus
7. unto good works,
8. which God hath before ordained
9. that we should walk in them.

 

[bbyrd009]

Some argue forgiveness is all that is required for eternity. But if that was the case everyone would be in Christ and no judgement. Change of the heart is essential through faith. Again some suggest we are just vessels thrown away and tortured for eternity or accepted and changed to be with Christ.

To become a new creation something substantial has to take place. And I know the hatred of those who say only faith matters, change is irrelevant.

Fools argue these points, because if we are not like Jesus we are lost. The disciples had no problem with this because they knew Jesus as a man, not a distant ideal illusion. Jesus is other, but not as the world thinks, because only with the Holy Spirit do things change. And this reality only matters to the elect, because only they see it. A little ironic but it stops arguing, because this is either real or it's not seen. God bless you

the disciples had no probs with that? Are you sure?

Some argue forgiveness is all that is required for eternity. But if that was the case everyone would be in Christ and no judgement.

but little kids get a pass, huh
how come?

 

[bbyrd009]

1. The nation of Israel was UNDER the Law of Moses for about 1500 years. And Christ came to fulfil the Law, and establish the New Covenant. Thus the Law of Moses is now null and void.

2. However, sinners were always justified by grace through faith, as illustrated by Abraham long before the Law came into existence. And Abel long before Abraham (Hebrews 11)

3. In spite of that many Jews (particularly the Pharisees) believed that observing the works of the Law (e.g. tithing, Sabbath observance, etc) would make them righteous (justified) before God. They were clearly mistaken.

4. The core of the Law is the Ten Commandments. And they are there to establish THE GUILT of every human being. There is not one human being who has not broken one or more of the Ten Commandments.

5. Therefore it is only by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption that sinners are saved (justified) by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9) And that leads to the New Birth.

6. Those who are saved by grace must DEMONSTRATE their genuine faith (and their New Birth) through good works, but good works do not save them (Eph 2:10). Salvation is God's GIFT to the one who believes.

This is all summed up in Ephesians 2:8-10
1. For by grace are ye saved through faith;
2. and that not of yourselves:
3. it is the gift of God:
4. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
5. For we are his workmanship,
6. created in Christ Jesus
7. unto good works,
8. which God hath before ordained
9. that we should walk in them.

DISCUSSION sir, i meant discussion ok, not wise guys popping off ty
doesnt mean that you arent maybe almost half right tho i guess