If all of the Church is the Bride of Christ who are the guests?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to place that idea on a Pre-trib Rapture theory platform? Sounds like it.
John 3:28-30
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before Him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth Him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
KJV
John the Baptist did not say he was the bride, but the "friend of the bridegroom". So we (Christ's Church) are too.
The Bride--
Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV
Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV
Davy
Well-Known Member
Then it does... sound like you've been subjected to men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, for Darby's Dispensationalist theories with the secret rapture he taught created the idea that Israel is a restored nation on earth after Christ's coming while the Church is in Heaven reigning with Jesus. His ideas of course are not Biblical, and they try to encompass the salvation states of different peoples like you do.
Christ's Revelation shows that the new Jerusalem is His Bride and Wife. The marriage supper of the future when Jesus returns is about His marrying Jerusalem. The Father married earthly Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16, but she rebelled and played the harlot against Him. In Revelation, earthly Jerusalem is shown married to another, the Antichrist, for the end of this world just prior to Christ's return.
So even though there are small references in the NT about Christ's Church being like a bride, waiting on the marriage to Christ at His coming, the greater Message in God's Word is about His marriage to the new Jerusalem at His coming.
I am not trying to get in line with any platform. I am simply seeking to understand the difference, if there is one between the Bride and the Church as God sees it. Thanks for your input, but the waters remain muddy for me.
I have of course heard people speak of a rapture but I have never found sufficient reason to believe that such a catching away will occur in spite of the one verse often used to support it. I am simply wanting to understand the answers to the questions I have raised.
I am glad you have found things that seem to satisfy you. You have still, it seems to me, side stepped the problems I have addressed. You have however addressed other things which I don't really understand well enough to discuss. They do not seem to clear up the questions I have raised regarding the Church and the Bride.
That still says nothing about my questions.
And you are trying to find fault with Darby and company, when you cannot even interpret Scripture correctly?
The New Jerusalem is THE HEAVENLY CITY in which the Bride (the future Wife of the Lamb) will dwell. A city is a city and the inhabitants are not the city.
The New Jerusalem is a cubic city 1500 cubic miles in dimension. That would make it as large as a continent and as deep as at least 1500 continents stacked above each other. And that is where the saints will dwell for eternity, and that is where those mansions are. And we accept all this by faith, just like Abraham.
HEBREWS 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
As to the Bride, the Church is the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ.
The righteous are scarcely saved...into the nations in the next age. The saints are abundantly saved and rule over the nations in the next age from the holy city.
Also among the nations are the poor and they who died too young or were oppressed in this life. There are many many in the nations. Far fewer are in the holy city who are priests and kings to God. The priests serve in the city and the kings rule over the nations.
Also among the nations are the poor and they who died too young or were oppressed in this life. There are many many in the nations. Far fewer are in the holy city who are priests and kings to God. The priests serve in the city and the kings rule over the nations.
I think the church is the bride, but only metaphorically. The kingdom is the true bride. I doubt adopted children marry their brother.
dorian37grey
Member
who is the bride ?
who are the guests ?
ezekiel 23 *
Ezekiel 23 New International Version (NIV)
Two Adulterous Sisters
23 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother.A)"> 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt,B)"> engaging in prostitution" from their youth." In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed."> 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
who is the bride ?---------> its the they were mine
they are the 2 kingdoms of israel
Oholibah is Jerusalem -----------> the southern kingdom ( not hard to see )
Oholah is Samaria ------> the northern tribes ( remember the woman at the well - whose was her father ""our father ____ gave us this well ""?
*** john 4: 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well" and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
and the guests ? -------gave birth to sons and daughters.
here we have the verse : john one : 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed" in his name,R)"> he gave the right to become children of GodS)">— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
so who are the guests ? its us ; the children of God that Jesus made
who are the guests ?
ezekiel 23 *
Ezekiel 23 New International Version (NIV)
Two Adulterous Sisters
23 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother.A)"> 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt,B)"> engaging in prostitution" from their youth." In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed."> 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
who is the bride ?---------> its the they were mine
they are the 2 kingdoms of israel
Oholibah is Jerusalem -----------> the southern kingdom ( not hard to see )
Oholah is Samaria ------> the northern tribes ( remember the woman at the well - whose was her father ""our father ____ gave us this well ""?
*** john 4: 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well" and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
and the guests ? -------gave birth to sons and daughters.
here we have the verse : john one : 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed" in his name,R)"> he gave the right to become children of GodS)">— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
so who are the guests ? its us ; the children of God that Jesus made
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I wonder whether the question asked has an incorrect assumption namely that the bride and the guests are different. I wonder if in this story its point is to convey the same message in different ways a bit like the story of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom which was also not meant to be dissected and thereby miss the point.
We need to simply go to Revelation 19 to see that there are no guests at the Marriage of the Lamb.
And the parable regarding the Wedding Feast must be interpreted properly. The "guests" in this parable are all those invited through the Gospel to partake of Christ (the Bread and the Water of Life). Only those who received the wedding garment are the saints.
A CERTAIN KING = GOD THE FATHER
HIS SON = THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
HIS SERVANTS = PROPHETS, APOSTLES, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, TEACHERS
THOSE WHO WERE BIDDEN AT FIRST AND DID NOT COME = ISRAEL
THOSE THAT WERE ON THE HIGHWAYS = THE WORLD (MANY CALLED)
BOTH GOOD AND BAD = UNREGENERATE HUMANS
THE MAN WITHOUT THE WEDDING GARMENT= THE UNBELIEVERS
THOSE WITH THE WEDDING GARMENT = THE SAINTS (FEW CHOSEN)
I posted my view of this question in post's (42-43). I have gone back and reread it to see if I still agree with what I have written, and I do.
Stranger
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I don't think parables are intended to walk on all fours so to speak. They are intended to convey a pertinent message, for example, the message in the parable of Lazaras in Abrahams bosom clearly conveys the message 'if they do not believe Moses and the prophets neither will they believe if one rose from the dead'....that's his point in telling the story.
With the the parable being addressed here, the bride and the guests, the point is the necessity of having the wedding garment which I see as righteousness imputed to us or as another scripture says, made white in the blood of the lamb.
The expression 'made white in the blood of the lamb' only makes sense if we understand the intent of the expression. If we misunderstand it we end up trying to figure out how blood can have a bleaching effect on garments and in so doing totally miss the point. It could be erroneously pushed further by attempting the development of a theology to that end....ridiculous I would say.
So to address your question, yes, literal was not intended.
so, in speaking of the bride, and marriage etc in a spiritual sense, we are not to think of it as a literal marriage? So it is a metaphor you think of the intimacy that God desires between Himself and His people? What then if the marriage supper? A literal meal? But not too celebrate marriage as we understand it, but to celebrate the long awaited full union between God and his church?
And the difference between bride and guest? No difference perhaps? Metaphorically both equally cherished and desired by the 'Groom'?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Yes, you could put it in those terms. That being said, the employment by Jesus of terms we understand, terms of intimacy which are the closest of human relationships that we know even falls short of what God has prepared for those that love him.....even reflecting on Lazarus in Abrahams bosom, another illustration of intimacy....peculiar language.
The immediate events that will unfold for the saints post Jesus's return, scripture says little about. If a meal or celebration of some sort will unfold all the merrier, I have no problems with that whatever form it will take. What a time that will be!! We do have a record of the created order exuberantly praising God when evil is finally defeated. I find it even now as I sing of God's kindness I get overwhelmed and the tears flow easily let alone trying to imagine myself in that great throng.
In regards to the bride/groom thing as we understand it I think your description fits well. Pushing it further is fraught with all sorts of scenarios that pursuing as I see it, is not the best choice and unless it is revealed to me otherwise I am content to let this unspeakable wonder unfold in God's time.
Davy
Well-Known Member
A study in Ezekiel 16 and Isaiah 54:1 (linked to Luke 23:26-31) should un-muddy them for you.
And in 2 Cor.11, Apostle Paul used the metaphor of "a chaste virgin" for the Church waiting on Christ's coming.
So the actual subject you're touching upon is a spiritual metaphor, a type parable. It involves the faithfulness of Jerusalem which God married but she becomes a harlot at the end, and also the faithfulness of Christ's Church awaiting His coming, where many will instead fall away at the end.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, I've given you enough Scripture evidence to settle the matter, but it appears you're listening to doctrines outside God's Word, and that is what has confused you. As long as you're doing that instead of admitting the actual Scripture proof on the subject, you'll never understand the matter.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Darby's Dispensationalist theories say the Church and Jesus are in Heaven ruling off the earth, when Revelation 5:9-10 admits that the Church will reign on the earth, and Psalms 2 shows Jesus will reign on earth, and you claim I'm not following Scripture? You're simply mad with Darby's false doctrines and cannot discern the truth in God's Holy Writ.
It is you... that has not come to grips with what God's Word actually points to about that time...
Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
Who are... those "synagogue of Satan" that will come to worship at the feet of Christ's elect in that future time? And since all false worship will be over in that time, we know it ain't His Church they are worshiping then. So how is it those enemies of Christ are where the Church is? since you claim the Church will be up in the heavenly cube? How is it Revelation 5:10 says the Church will reign "on the earth"?
The Revelation 20:9 passage shows the Church on earth throughout Christ's Millennial reign also. That's what that "camp of the saints" is about, Christ's Church reigning with Jesus ON EARTH during the "thousand years". And at the end of that period, Satan is loosed to tempt the nations one last time to go up against that "camp of the saints" on earth.
The city of Hebrews 11 is indeed about the new Jerusalem that will begin to be established ON EARTH after Christ's return. The last nine chapters of Ezekiel are about that, specifically showing its location on earth with the Millennial temple. It is in that temple complex where the "mansions" (abodes) of John 14 will be located, not up in the sky like pre-trib rapture theorists like to falsely teach.
Even Revelation 22:14-15 reveals that time with Christ's elect on earth inside the gates of the beloved city, while outside it are the wicked.
Thank you. At your suggestion I have read each selection of verses but came across nothing new to me. Perhaps in God's time there will be more clarity.
My present vision is that each of us should be seeking to be a part of His Bride. All must strive but some who fall short will still be saved even if not a part of the Bride. I try not to be drawing any lines between those in one place and those in another.
I read and I study and when and if it is His time He will increase me in this or whatever He sees as needful. Don't ask me for more scriptures than I have already given. I opened this thread to share where I and to perhaps receive more through others. If you cannot see my vision, there is nothing I can do to change that. If I am in error, but my heart is sincere and my search continues rightly without prolonged let up will not God correct me?
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6
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