Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[1stCenturyLady]

go with that then, i didn't say i don't like the answers, i said they will not hold up to the other Scripture that you have already glossed and still are not acknowledging, and congrats on your salvation

I haven't glossed scripture, I just haven't taken it out of context like those who make false doctrine out of 1 John 1:8 who want to justify their own lack of power over sin.

 

[bbyrd009]

I haven't glossed scripture, I just haven't taken it out of context like those who make false doctrine out of 1 John 1:8 who want to justify their own lack of power over sin.

and congrats on your salvation then,
if you want to go that direction.
Say you haven't, maybe it will then become true, and nevermind the previous page
ask where you haven't, and maybe you will see
see where you haven't, and then you can stop making declarations that are so easily refuted i'm not even bothering

 

[1stCenturyLady]

****

So you are saying you no longer sin in the flesh, right! Or is that power you have been given limited.

You really need to listen to what Paul said in Romans 7. There is a war between the flesh and the spirit in a child of God. But the child of God already has the victory but not by their power but by God's power in His Son's work on the cross. That does not mean his/her flesh has stopped sinning.

When a person thinks they have stopped sinning in their flesh they have become self-righteous. The spirit is what counts in a child of God. The flesh counts for nothing. It is pride that makes people think they are better than others because they think they no longer sin in the flesh.

The Child of God knows that the only relief they have is in the work of Jesus on the cross where He provided a way for those in sinful flesh to become children of God. That is why Paul thanks God that through Christ he has been saved from his sinful flesh. God does not save the flesh.

Read Romans 7 in context starting at verse 7, not verse 14, and read through to chapter 8:9. Paul is talking about the LAW ever since the first chapter. This is his conclusion on this lesson of the Old Covenant LAW, and WHY it didn't make us righteous - the sin nature. The LAW was holy, but our sin nature made it impossible to keep and caused the Jews a constant battle between their flesh and their knowledge of the LAW.

Romans 8 starts his teaching on the SPIRIT. The Spirit conquers the sin nature/the flesh. Romans 8:9 shows us that we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF we have the Spirit of God in us.

The Church has taught the false doctrine that 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10; and Romans 7 are about Christians for so long, it almost seems like fact. But the power of the Holy Spirit, and the power of the blood of Jesus is supernatural. You are only seeing through natural eyes, and with carnal understanding. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm doing God's will!

:)

 

[bbyrd009]

Just saying 1 John 1:8 has no application to a Converted man.

God Bless,
Taken

not sure where we got sideways on this, but see that this is what i have been saying from the first; those who say they have no sin are not saved; i agree

 

[H. Richard]

David repented and God forgave him.

***

Show the scripture reference or are we to just accept your word for it.

 

[H. Richard]

Read Romans 7 in context starting at verse 7, not verse 14, and read through to chapter 8:9. Paul is talking about the LAW ever since the first chapter. This is his conclusion on this lesson of the Old Covenant LAW, and WHY it didn't make us righteous - the sin nature. The LAW was holy, but our sin nature made it impossible to keep and caused the Jews a constant battle between their flesh and their knowledge of the LAW.

Romans 8 starts his teaching on the SPIRIT. The Spirit conquers the sin nature/the flesh. Romans 8:9 shows us that we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF we have the Spirit of God in us.

The Church has taught the false doctrine that 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10; and Romans 7 are about Christians for so long, it almost seems like fact. But the power of the Holy Spirit, and the power of the blood of Jesus is supernatural. You are only seeing through natural eyes, and with carnal understanding. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

***

I said Romans 7 not 8. You don't seem to want to take all of scriptures just the ones hat you think say God changes out sinful flesh.

Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Verse 24 - 25 is what I am saying. It is Jesus' work on the cross that saves me. My flesh is still serving the law of sin.

But it seems that you can't see what Paul is saying in these verses.

Rom 8:1-3
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
NKJV

Note verse 3. The flesh is still weak through the flesh. But the child of God walks in the spirit (Spirit = faith) . The child of God walks in faith that Jesus paid for their sins on the cross. The words spirit and faith has no physical material substance. In simple words I have placed my trust, faith in what Jesus did on the cross to save me. I will not get on a forum and try to sell others on the idea that I am sinless in the flesh since that detracts from what Jesus did on the cross.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

Just like Paul, I place no confidence in my flesh. But if that is what others wish to do that is their business.

 

[H. Richard]

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

IMHO this is saying 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the works of the flesh, but according to their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BoL,

Faith and belief in the Greek language are the same word, pistis.

Let's check what James 2:14-20 (NLT) teaches:

14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

This section teaches:

• Faith the is not followed by actions is not saving faith (v. 14). However, actions follow faith; they do not precede faith.
• What kinds of actions? The example given is ministering food or clothing to a Christian in need (vv 15-16).
• Unless faith produces good deeds it is 'dead and useless' (v 17). So, a person does not have genuine faith if it is not followed by good works. James is clear that actions come AFTER faith to demonstrate faith's genuineness.
• How can I show my faith in Christ for salvation? 'I will show you my faith by my good deeds' (v. 18). If a Christian is not doing good deeds, then the faith is not genuine. James is definite that good deeds demonstrate faith - AFTER faith for salvation.
• Having faith in one God (without actions) is what the demons have and that is not genuine belief (v. 19).
• 'faith without good deeds is useless', i.e. we have useless faith if not followed by good deeds (v. 20).

James is not teaching that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone does not bring salvation. He teaches that genuine faith is demonstrated by actions.

I ask all of us: What good deeds of ministering food and clothing to Christians and non-Christians have you done in the last month?

Oz

Good works, as such, can also be done by many unsaved people. Some of the kindest and most generous people I have known have been unsaved. I believe people are born with their own "personal" nature (apart from the sin nature) or, maybe I should use the word personality, there are those who are naturally kind and gentle, then there are those who are more on the gruff side. So, have you witnessed in yourself, since becoming saved, a desire to serve other people that you never had before? In turn of course, God is served. And, I will not answer your last question

WRONG.

What James is teaching is that faith is NOT simple belief. In James 2:19 – he stresses this by telling his readers that even the DEMONS believe (pistis) - and they DON'T have true faith.

James goes on for the next several verses pounding home the fact that TRUE faith is a marriage of belief + good works – and that you CANNOT have one without the other.

What YOU believe (in RED) is not important to the rest of us. We are interested in what the BIBLE teaches – NOT OzSpen. And the Bible teaches that “good” works apart from God are nothing of the sort. In fact – they are like filthy rags to Him if they are not done for HIS glory (Isa. 64:6).

 

[ScottA]

He draws them by giving them the Holy Spirit.
“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)

Say what [you will], but that is not the way He said it.

 

[ScottA]

Correct. The Godhead works as one God.

Now we have come full circle.

This all started when Dave singled out the Holy Spirit as being the main focus of salvation and saving faith, even though Jesus stated it differently. God is One, but the order of things is not how Dave has been preaching it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

***

I said Romans 7 not 8. You don't seem to want to take all of scriptures just the ones hat you think say God changes out sinful flesh.

Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Verse 24 - 25 is what I am saying. It is Jesus' work on the cross that saves me. My flesh is still serving the law of sin.

But it seems that you can't see what Paul is saying in these verses.

Rom 8:1-3
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
NKJV

Note verse 3. The flesh is still weak through the flesh. But the child of God walks in the spirit (Spirit = faith) . The child of God walks in faith that Jesus paid for their sins on the cross. The words spirit and faith has no physical material substance. In simple words I have placed my trust, faith in what Jesus did on the cross to save me. I will not get on a forum and try to sell others on the idea that I am sinless in the flesh since that detracts from what Jesus did on the cross.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

Just like Paul, I place no confidence in my flesh. But if that is what others wish to do that is their business.

I know you said Romans 7. That is what I was talking about. Did you honestly miss that fact? You cannot understand chapter 7 without 8. All of 7, not just verses 23-25, but starting with verse 7 as I pointed out! You saying to me "You don't seem to want to take all of scriptures just the ones hat you think say God changes out sinful flesh," belongs blatantly on your foot. Romans 7 and 8 is a contrast of the LAW and the SPIRIT - before and after Christ, which is why I included both. It is the difference between the old man and the new man. Your making your letters bigger doesn't mean your understanding is any bigger, just making your lack of understanding glaringly obvious. The last words you made bigger were "condemned sin in the flesh." Do you even know what Paul meant? Evidently not, if you believe Jesus left us weak, just forgiven! By the Spirit we are no longer in our sinful flesh. That is why in verse 9 he says, we are NOT in the flesh - or sin nature - but in the Spirit. One or the other - saved or unsaved. I don't know how Paul could make it any plainer, but you certainly didn't understand what he meant. If you can't understand this, you will twist the rest of scripture into a weak gospel and turn the grace of God into licentiousness, Jude 1:4

I can do all things through Christ, WHO STRENGTHENS ME. The strength comes from the SPIRIT. We are full of the power of the Spirit, IF we have the Spirit. Those who do not have the power of the Holy Spirit in them, cannot relate to what Paul is saying, still need to repent from all sin in order to be given this power, and be saved. Acts 2:38

John confirms Paul by telling us in 1 John 3:5 that Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin. That is take away our sin nature! But we must have the Spirit. We must be born again. The Spirit is the seed in 1 John 3:9 and why we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, and are new creatures in Christ. This message is all throughout the gospel and the epistles, so if you find Jesus leaving us weak, then His words of making us free indeed, is a lie. But Jesus is not the liar here.

 

[Taken]

What you are describing is the sacrifice of animals, not Jesus. The blood of bulls and goats merely covered sin, while it was still there.

No.
Animal Blood provided temporary Forgiveness.
Jesus Blood provides permanent Forgiveness.

The Blood of animals provided a temporary Covering.
The Blood of Jesus provides a Permanent Covering when the Converted receives the Indwelling LIGHT, of the Holy Spirit, that Overcomes Darkness.

The blood of Jesus TAKES AWAY sin.

I agree WHO takes away sin.

And "WHEN" is the SIN TAKEN AWAY?

According to scriptural revelation, the RESULT will be revealed, WHEN, the body is Glorified and the body is no longer subject to SORROW.......WHEN HE WILL....
Rev 12:4

Are you in a denomination that was begun in the Reformation? It sounds like it.

I have been pretty clear, I have given the Lord "domination" over the whole of my life.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

so you say, yes. So then if one decides they are "converted"

it is then ok to say they have no sin,

I don't, nor do I believe that would be correct FOR the Converted to claim that.

rather than contemplating that it is just very few who are actually in Christ and sinless

Sinnless? I do not believe Forgiven sin, makes a person "sinnless". I don't claim that, so can not answer for those who would claim that.
Mostly what I see, Is people making that absurd claim "for others".

as are being spoken of, and of course the "seven worse spirits" and "twice the sons of hell" mean other people too right, we shouldn't even be considering them at all in this perspective lol, they're obviously "unconverted" too right

No clue what you are talking about.

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us

That verse is pretty direct, that it requires someone to MAKE that CLAIM, BEFORE the consequence of DECEPTION and VOID of the Truth "TO BE" a consequence.

is speaking directly to you, imo,

Speaking directly to me? Are you attempting to convey, that verse APPLIES directly to me?

Let me know what you are conveying and then I will respond.

whoever you are, converted or not, so i do agree that if you say you have no sin you are not converted; maybe we agree there, not sure

Again, that verse has a glaring caveat....
The Claim has to be made, of one saying they have no sin...BEFORE the rest of the Verse is applicable.

Me, personally, I have made no such claim.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

not sure where we got sideways on this, but see that this is what i have been saying from the first; those who say they have no sin are not saved; i agree

Agree.

And will add, those who MAKE CLAIMS for others, (as repeatedly happens on this forum) are irrelevant and often False claims.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No.
Animal Blood provided temporary Forgiveness.
Jesus Blood provides permanent Forgiveness.

The Blood of animals provided a temporary Covering.
The Blood of Jesus provides a Permanent Covering when the Converted receives the Indwelling LIGHT, of the Holy Spirit, that Overcomes Darkness.



I agree WHO takes away sin.

And "WHEN" is the SIN TAKEN AWAY?

According to scriptural revelation, the RESULT will be revealed, WHEN, the body is Glorified and the body is no longer subject to SORROW.......WHEN HE WILL....
Rev 12:4



I have been pretty clear, I have given the Lord "domination" over the whole of my life.

God Bless,
Taken

You still believe the sin is still there. Read your Bible. For instance, 1 John 3:5 Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY (not just covers) our sin, and in Him THERE IS NO SIN. And it isn't after we are dead.

You still believe we are in the flesh. Read your Bible. For instance, Romans 8:9 But we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is in you.

That's the question - IS the Holy Spirit in you?

 

[Taken]

You still believe the sin is still there. Read your Bible. For instance, 1 John 3:5 Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY (not just covers) our sin,

I am familiar with my Bible and what it says.
Yes Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY SIN.

And? I am fully confident the Light of the Holy spirit Dwells IN ME, Covers my sin, HAS recorded MY NAME IN the Lambs Book of LIFE, SHALL raise up my body "IN Glory" thus, By and Through Christ, the POWER of God, my sin SHALL Be TAKEN AWAY....DONE, ACCOMPLISHED, and ... Sorrow NO MORE.

and in Him THERE IS NO SIN.

No one is disputing WHAT IS IN Him.

And it isn't after we are dead.

I am not physically dead, nor has my body been RAISED in Glory.

You still believe we are in the flesh.

I believe, my body is spiritually crucified, and I have the authority to walk IN the spirit, BECAUSE of WHAT Jesus FINISHED, and I chose.
ALSO I believe WHEN my body IS glorified, What the Lord promised WILL BE DONE.

Read your Bible.

You read your Bible. All has not YET come to pass, come into fruition.

For instance, Romans 8:9 But we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is in you.

So, what is YOUR understanding?
Is your flesh Physically dead?
Has your body been glorified?
Do you still have emotions of sorrow?
Because...while I am forgiven of my sin, covered in His Light....I am Accomplished IN HIM....
Luke 22:37

But the rodeo isn't over yet.

Scripture notifies you...Jesus came to Accomplish Certain things.
And when He accomplished those things;
He said. It is finished.
John 19:28
John 17:4
John 19:30

Rev 21:6 When more that has been foretold, is accomplished, It will be DONE.

That's the question - IS the Holy Spirit in you?

Why is that the question?...When on more than one occasion I have expressly testified to that fact.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Enoch111]

You still believe we are in the flesh. Read your Bible. For instance, Romans 8:9 But we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is in you.

It is unfortunate that the word "flesh" can be applied one of two ways: (1) the body itself and (2) the old Adamic sin nature which is part and parcel of humanity. Some people are unable to distinguish between the two.

When Paul says "But we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is in you", what he means is that those who possess the Holy Spirit are no longer under the domination or dominion of their old natures ("the flesh"). The Holy Spirit empowers believers to overcome their sinful tendencies (from within) and walk according to the Spirit. But since no Christian is sinlessly perfect, there will be times when Christian allow the flesh to take control. And that can manifest itself as follows:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred (enmity), variance (strife, quarrels), emulations (jealousy), wrath, strife (rivalry and ambition), seditions (dissensions), heresies (factions), envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I am familiar with my Bible and what it says.
Yes Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY SIN.

And? I am fully confident the Light of the Holy spirit Dwells IN ME, Covers my sin, HAS recorded MY NAME IN the Lambs Book of LIFE, SHALL raise up my body "IN Glory" thus, By and Through Christ, the POWER of God, my sin SHALL Be TAKEN AWAY....DONE, ACCOMPLISHED, and ... Sorrow NO MORE.



No one is disputing WHAT IS IN Him.



I am not physically dead, nor has my body been RAISED in Glory.



I believe, my body is spiritually crucified, and I have the authority to walk IN the spirit, BECAUSE of WHAT Jesus FINISHED, and I chose.
ALSO I believe WHEN my body IS glorified, What the Lord promised WILL BE DONE.



You read your Bible. All has not YET come to pass, come into fruition.



So, what is YOUR understanding?
Is your flesh Physically dead?
Has your body been glorified?
Do you still have emotions of sorrow?
Because...while I am forgiven of my sin, covered in His Light....I am Accomplished IN HIM....
Luke 22:37

But the rodeo isn't over yet.

Scripture notifies you...Jesus came to Accomplish Certain things.
And when He accomplished those things;
He said. It is finished.
John 19:28
John 17:4
John 19:30

Rev 21:6 When more that has been foretold, is accomplished, It will be DONE.



Why is that the question?...When on more than one occasion I have expressly testified to that fact.

God Bless,
Taken

It is already taken away. Read your Bible.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is unfortunate that the word "flesh" can be applied one of two ways: (1) the body itself and (2) the old Adamic sin nature which is part and parcel of humanity. Some people are unable to distinguish between the two.

When Paul says "But we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is in you", what he means is that those who possess the Holy Spirit are no longer under the domination or dominion of their old natures ("the flesh"). The Holy Spirit empowers believers to overcome their sinful tendencies (from within) and walk according to the Spirit. But since no Christian is sinlessly perfect, there will be times when Christian allow the flesh to take control. And that can manifest itself as follows:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred (enmity), variance (strife, quarrels), emulations (jealousy), wrath, strife (rivalry and ambition), seditions (dissensions), heresies (factions), envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

I liked and agreed with your post until you brought up the unsaved, as if they were saved. Those that do not inherit the kingdom of God are unsaved. They don't just lose rewards as is taught in the lliberal left, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 21: 8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” The way the liberal left has Christianity is 1 John 1:6 Those who say they have fellowship with God, but walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth. John also says their father is the devil.