Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[1stCenturyLady]

2+2=5 there to me, sorry--bc you are only looking at one pov--you either say you have no sin now or not

No sin.

2 + 2 = 4

2 - repent and are cleansed of all your past sins unto death and receive the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 1 John 1:9)
2 - walk in the Spirit and the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all trespasses (1 John 1:7)

4 - All cleansed (John 8:34-36)

It is what Jesus preached, not the human carnal reasonings and justifications of man who is still a slave to willful sin and has never become free, who still loves darkness, who have never experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only those who have can relate.

John 8:
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[bbyrd009]

No sin.

so hopefully you see the point; the Scriptures you Quote are completely true, yet you are now led to say you have no sin, completely false, right

 

[1stCenturyLady]

so hopefully you see the point; the Scriptures you Quote are completely true, yet you are now led to say you have no sin, completely false, right

Why false? Do you believe Jesus lied?

 

[ScottA]

You cannot have saving faith apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Dave, your statement above seems to be the hinge-point and error...like which came first the chicken or the egg.

Much has been said in the scriptures about faith, but Jesus made the origin of salvation perfectly clear:

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

...Indeed, the gifts of God and the Holy Spirit are all sent by the Father. But making the Holy Spirit a condition of saving faith...is not what He said.

So, then, if you claim that saving faith originates with the Holy Spirit, it is not completely correct, because it first originates with the Father. To then argue over the secondary possibilities of just how things may occur after that, is misleading.

For the record: One must first be drawn by the Father, then it is Jesus who is the Author of our faith, who sends the Holy Spirit - which He does not do until we first believe.

 

[OzSpen]

Huh?
Why would you ask me such a silly question?

Do you have a quote of me saying any such thing?

You are promoting some guy named Ron Rhodes philosophy.

Why do you believe if I am not interested in what some guy, I've never heard of, promotes....TRANSLATES into not being interested in Biblical Evidence?

weird

God Bless,
Taken

Taken,

God has given us the gift of teachers (1 Cor 12:29; Eph 4:12) and "their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ" (Eph 4:12 NLT).

I have found Ron Rhodes teaching ministry to be one of God's gift to equip God's people.

However, all who hear his (or any Bible teacher's) teaching have this biblical responsibility:

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth (Acts 17:11 NLT).​

Before God, I have a responsibility to practise Acts 17:11 on this forum also.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Dave, your statement above seems to be the hinge-point and error...like which came first the chicken or the egg.

Much has been said in the scriptures about faith, but Jesus made the origin of salvation perfectly clear:

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

...Indeed, the gifts of God and the Holy Spirit are all sent by the Father. But making the Holy Spirit a condition of saving faith...is not what He said.

So, then, if you claim that saving faith originates with the Holy Spirit, it is not completely correct, because it first originates with the Father. To then argue over the secondary possibilities of just how things may occur after that, is misleading.

For the record: One must first be drawn by the Father, then it is Jesus who is the Author of our faith, who sends the Holy Spirit - which He does not do until we first believe.

Scott,

You quoted John 6:44 when Jesus said nobody can come to Him unless drawn by the Father.

That verse needs to be associated with John 12:32 (NIV) to determine WHO is able to be drawn by the Father: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself".

Following Jesus' being lifted up (exalted) - death, resurrection & ascension - ALL people are drawn.

Why, then, aren't all saved? It's because of a fundamental that God has given to human beings. They can say no to temptation or fall into it. Adam and Eve had this opportunity in the Garden to choose to obey God or choose to disobey Him. They chose the latter.

While all people are drawn to Jesus today (after hearing the Gospel proclamation), God doesn't force his salvation on them (Acts 16:31 NIV).

Oz

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But making the Holy Spirit a condition of saving faith...is not what He said.

Just to be clear, we must have the Holy Spirit to be saved. That is being born again of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9b If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ in them, they do not belong to Him.

So, then, if you claim that saving faith originates with the Holy Spirit, it is not completely correct, because it first originates with the Father. To then argue over the secondary possibilities of just how things may occur after that, is misleading.

Yes, I agree, the Father gives everyone a measure of faith, from which the Holy Spirit draws us. Romans 12.

The supernatural gift of faith from the Holy Spirit is given along with a Word (rhema). Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the rhema of God. Romans 10:17. Such as Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowlege and Prophecy.

 

[Taken]

Taken,

God has given us the gift of teachers

WHY? Do you Know Why?

The WHY should cause you to consider the era, of 2,000 + years ago.

Hearing Gods Word was scant.
Women and children did not attend Temple.
The ability of men, women, children with the ability to read was scant.
For those few who could read; it was in the Temple where the Text of Gods written word was kept.

Jesus IS the Supreme Teacher.
The very men Jesus taught and sent out into the world, to SPEAK His Word.....Are recorded in printed books and available for men to have and Read, from the written word of Thee Supreme Teacher Himself and men He Chose to Speak His Word.

It seems I am one of the fortunate ones, who can read, who does own copies of Gods written word, who does read Thee Supreme Teachers Word, and the recollections of the words Jesus taught His disciples....and feel quite content with my teachers. :)

(1 Cor 12:29; Eph 4:12) and "their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ" (Eph 4:12 NLT).

This is a result of a successful effort.

A teachers Responsibility is to spread among people, Gods Word, in His TRUTH.

I have found Ron Rhodes teaching ministry to be one of God's gift to equip God's people.

That is a nice testimony...regarding a man who has helped you see what you (I'm guessing) could not see, by Jesus' teaching, or His disciples.

Personally... I am content with my Scriptural teachers.

I have listened to a few men, presenting themselves "as teachers"....(clerics, pastors),
Whatever "title" they or another gives them....and without fail...there is always "something" they teach...not according to Scripture.

I have also heard others say...they do not believe everything their (Cleric) teaches IS according to the Word of God...YET will continue in that atmosphere.

However, all who hear his (or any Bible teacher's) teaching have this biblical responsibility:

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth (Acts 17:11 NLT).​

Before God, I have a responsibility to practise Acts 17:11 on this forum also.

Oz

Hold on dude.
You were promoting a mans teaching that was beneficial FOR YOU.
Personally I am content with my teachers, and simply said I'll pass on your offer.

Your response (post #170) was an implication that IF I had no interest to read Ron Rhodes materials...that meant I have no interest in Biblical evidence.

What remotely indicated what my interest IS?

All you knew was my interest was Not in reading Rhodes material.

If you had asked Why not?

I could have told you....
If my time is spent reading Rhodes material, then my time is deflected From reading what God has approved.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think the title of this post would be better if it was called "Limited Atonement vs. Conditional Atonement. Saving faith is the condition. Universal Atonement means everyone is saved whether they believe or not. That is the false doctrine of Universalism.

The atonement is for EVERYONE who believes. If everyone believed, then everyone would be saved, not the doctrine of Limited Atonement, that God chooses some and forbids others. It is not God's will that any should perish.

 

[ScottA]

Just to be clear, we must have the Holy Spirit to be saved. That is being born again of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9b If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ in them, they do not belong to Him.

That is not the way that Dave said it, nor the way that I responded. But rather that it is the Father whom draws us, Jesus who is the Author (of our faith), and the Holy Spirit who equips us and helps us.

Yes, I agree, the Father gives everyone a measure of faith, from which the Holy Spirit draws us. Romans 12.

It is the Father who draws us...not the Holy Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That is not the way that Dave said it, nor the way that I responded. But rather that it is the Father whom draws us, Jesus who is the Author (of our faith), and the Holy Spirit who equips us and helps us.

It is the Father who draws us...not the Holy Spirit.

Yes, you are right.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


And Jesus:

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

But, even though they draw us we must accept Him and we must be born again of the Spirit. Romans 8:9b

 

[Enoch111]

It is the Father who draws us...not the Holy Spirit.

All three divine Persons of the Holy Trinity draw men to Christ.

THE FATHER
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

THE SON
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

THE HOLY SPIRIT
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

 

[Dave L]

Dave, your statement above seems to be the hinge-point and error...like which came first the chicken or the egg.

Much has been said in the scriptures about faith, but Jesus made the origin of salvation perfectly clear:

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

...Indeed, the gifts of God and the Holy Spirit are all sent by the Father. But making the Holy Spirit a condition of saving faith...is not what He said.

So, then, if you claim that saving faith originates with the Holy Spirit, it is not completely correct, because it first originates with the Father. To then argue over the secondary possibilities of just how things may occur after that, is misleading.

For the record: One must first be drawn by the Father, then it is Jesus who is the Author of our faith, who sends the Holy Spirit - which He does not do until we first believe.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[bbyrd009]

Why false? Do you believe Jesus lied?

no, i believe you are lightly including yourself in a very exclusive group, as the passage even intends, even though few there are who find it, but mostly 1 John 1:8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So imo we are led to those vv and told we have achieved this as soon as we accept Jesus with our mouths, and as you say our desire to sin has undergone a change, yes. So, by not reflecting on some other important passages at the time this soul is now primed to believe it is perfect and can no longer sin, rather than recognizing it is just forgiven, which is not the same thing.

Do you think Jesus lied to us when He said "the path is narrow, and few find it?"
So see how your logic train is going to be turned against you ok. We are once again in a spot where i'd be tickled pink if what you believe came true, but you cannot even contemplate what i believe coming true, which is the point here; i don't know the future and i'm not trying to figure it out, you have it all planned out and cannot even contemplate any other outcome, right? And you and i are just the guinea pigs here, nevermind us iow, what is the fruit of a nation that believes this?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

no, i believe you are lightly including yourself in a very exclusive group, as the passage even intends, even though few there are who find it, but mostly 1 John 1:8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So imo we are led to those vv and told we have achieved this as soon as we accept Jesus with our mouths, and as you say our desire to sin has undergone a change, yes. So, by not reflecting on some other important passages at the time this soul is now primed to believe it is perfect and can no longer sin, rather than recognizing it is just forgiven, which is not the same thing.

Do you think Jesus lied to us when He said "the path is narrow, and few find it?"
So see how your logic train is going to be turned against you ok. We are once again in a spot where i'd be tickled pink if what you believe came true, but you cannot even contemplate what i believe coming true, which is the point here; i don't know the future and i'm not trying to figure it out, you have it all planned out and cannot even contemplate any other outcome, right? And you and i are just the guinea pigs here, nevermind us iow, what is the fruit of a nation that believes this?

Why do you include me in 1 John 1:8? I AM a Christian. They are not. The context of that verse is the next verse on how to BECOME a Christian 1 John 1:9.

Many never come to Christ believing their own righteousness will get them to heaven, so they never turn to Christ, believing they are good enough.

You are right - few find it, but I did. Have you? Have you ever been born again OF THE SPIRIT? Have you ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit and received power over sin?

 

[Nancy]

Totally backwards.
Christ doesn't say "you I'm going to save and force to have faith", and hence you have faith. And other people... well, just sucks to be them.

Rather, Christ offers His gift of faith for everyone, same with salvation. We each have a choice to accept Christ and be lifted by Him. Some accept, some decline. God loves the entire world and offers this gift to all. We each just choose whether or not to accept Him.

AMEN! How does one accept that free gift without faith? And, are we not saved by grace through faith? We have been given a "measure of faith" so, how can anybody consider the receiving of a gift as work? I agree, Dave has it backwards.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do you include me in 1 John 1:8? I AM a Christian. They are not.

6If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth. So believe that if you like, but that does not mean that that is what John was saying, ok. We are plainly told twice the sons of hell and seven worse spirits in other passages, and these do not seem to occur in your belief system? And you don't have to acknowledge them for my sake either, ok, believe you have no sin if you like, and don't answer my questions if you don't want to, you do not owe me any explanations. Congratulations on your salvation even

 

[H. Richard]

Why do you include me in 1 John 1:8? I AM a Christian. They are not. The context of that verse is the next verse on how to BECOME a Christian 1 John 1:9.

Many never come to Christ believing their own righteousness will get them to heaven, so they never turn to Christ, believing they are good enough.

You are right - few find it, but I did. Have you? Have you ever been born again OF THE SPIRIT? Have you ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit and received power over sin?

***

I have a question, when you say we receive "power over sin" how do you see this?

1. Are you saying that a person is given the power to not sin in the flesh?

2. Or are you saying that our power over sins of the flesh is the shed blood of Jesus on the cross that has already paid for our sins of the flesh?

If Number 1 then why do those in Christ still sin in the flesh?

 

[Taken]

you have no sin if you like...

A person who has Confessed their sin and become Converted....

Is not a person claiming they have No SIN.

Obviously they acknowledged their sin when they Confessed their sin.

Their sin did not Vanish...Their sin became Forgiven Sin...

And their sin became Covered with Gods Light (via His Indwelling Spirit).

Sin is equated with evil, corruption and darkness.

Gods Light is equated with, goodness, power and having the ability to overcome darkness.

Darkness that becomes Overcome with Light...renders the darkness unseen and forgotten.

A Converted man has already agreed with God to have God Himself overcome a mans sin With Gods Light.

God Himself no longer sees or remembers the mans sin, nor does the man have a requirement to remember and dwell on forgiven and covered sin.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[H. Richard]

Yes, and faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist.

***

Since you say we must be faithful do you include yourself? No man in sinful flesh has been faithful. Even David was not faithful in that in the end he worshiped the pagan gods of his 900 concubines.

One thing is sure, only God is faithful and He keeps His own children.