Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

[Copperhead]

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It would explain where the 2 witnesses came from and why they will "die" and resurrect during the great tribulation.

So then, the witnesses of Revelation are not caught up to heaven either? You claimed they are Enoch and Elijah. You must really hate these guys to make them do what you suggest of them. Going in and out of time warps. After all, Yeshua still hasn't returned at this point in the text.

Revelation 11:11-12 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. Those who watched them were terrified. 12 Then the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven calling to them, “Come up here!” So they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

I am just a simple, old, ex-Army Armored Cavalry soldier. And I like following the simple hermeneutic principle of .....

"When the plain sense of scripture. makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word. at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning. unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages. and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

So then, the witnesses of Revelation are not caught up to heaven either? You claimed they are Enoch and Elijah. You must really hate these guys to make them do what you suggest of them. Going in and out of time warps. After all, Yeshua still hasn't returned at this point in the text.

Revelation 11:11-12 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. Those who watched them were terrified. 12 Then the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven calling to them, “Come up here!” So they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Well... yeah in Revelation they will go up to Heaven at that time, but you were implying that Enoch & Elijah were taken up to the third Heaven where God's throne was before Christ led the way.

I do not hate them guys. The time warps is just a theory as to how and where those two witnesses came from in the great tribulation. We will all know soon enough.

 

[Copperhead]

Well... yeah in Revelation they will go up to Heaven at that time, but you were implying that Enoch & Elijah were taken up to the third Heaven where God's throne was before Christ led the way.

I did not imply anything. The text itself said that Elijah was caught up to heaven. The text did not imply either. It stated it categorically as fact. No ambiguity.

2 Kings 2:11 (ISV) As they continued on, talking as they went, suddenly chariots blazing with fire and pulled by fiery horses appeared, separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a wind storm to heaven!

2 Kings 2:11 (LITV) And it happened, as they were going on and speaking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire came. And they separated between them both, and Elijah went up in a tempest to Heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 (NASB) As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 (TLV) As they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The Shamayim has always been viewed as the abode of YHWH since ancient times. That this is the word used in the Hebrew for Heaven. Seems pretty clear.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I did not imply anything. The text itself said that Elijah was caught up to heaven. The text did not imply either. It stated it categorically as fact. No ambiguity.

Ah. Well, I disagree then.

2 Kings 2:11 (ISV) As they continued on, talking as they went, suddenly chariots blazing with fire and pulled by fiery horses appeared, separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a wind storm to heaven!

2 Kings 2:11 (LITV) And it happened, as they were going on and speaking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire came. And they separated between them both, and Elijah went up in a tempest to Heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 (NASB) As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 (TLV) As they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The Shamayim has always been viewed as the abode of YHWH since ancient times. That this is the word used in the Hebrew for Heaven. Seems pretty clear.

Was God's throne where God lives had to be created?

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth....7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so....

The first heaven.. the upper atmosphere

Genesis 2:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

The second heaven is outer space.

2 Corinthians 12:I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

There is a third heaven where God's throne is where the apostle John was caught up made possible because Jesus Christ is there for John to do that.

I cannot say which of the first two heaven that Enoch and Elijah were taken to and it could very well be both, but I really believe it was not the third heaven where God's throne is, but eventually they will be after their death & resurrection during the great tribulation.

I believe God always was and so was Heaven where He dwells and so that was not created, but the upper atmosphere and outer space was created.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[OzSpen]

Not when you are taking Matthew 24th chapter as if it applies to the times before the great tribulation as well as the great tribulation altogether for how Jesus was answering the 3 questions put to Him by the disciples. If you did it that way, then the throwing down of the stones of the Temple they were looking at in Jerusalem would imply that the great tribulation had already happened in 70 A.D. if you group all of Jesus's answers together.

So your issue has been addressed because I said you Replyneed His wisdom to discern which part of Matthew 24th chapter applies to which of the 3 questions Jesus is answering His disciples about, because some of it has already happened while others are happening right now and others have yet to happen as significant as the rapture is to happen before calamity comes from which the great tribulation shall arise from.

And you give no supporting verses from Matt 24 for your claims of Jesus' answering 3 questions and one of them if the rapture happening before the calamity + great tribulation.

I wait.

 

[Davy]

Tell me then..... was the rapture of the saints in Matt 27:52 pre, mid, or post trib? They were after Yeshua Himself was resurrected and that event happened already. So did the trib begin before Yeshua was killed?

Far as I can tell, the great tribulation hasn't started. Yet, Matthew tells us that a bunch of the saints were resurrected. And many of the early church writers confirmed that the passage in Matthew was not some later addition or some such nonsense as modern textual critics have said, and that these saints where removed to be with the Lord. So there is a pre-trib rapture that has already happened, with another yet to come.

Your not making a whole lot of sense. Apostle Paul preached Jesus and the resurrection, and that was after Jesus' death and resurrection. So no, the resurrection is not over, if that's what you're thinking. Those who came out of their graves when Jesus died on the cross is not the resurrection that is to occur at the end of this world with Jesus' 2nd coming.

Secondly, those who resurrected at Jesus' death were not raptured. The idea of the rapture is involving alive saints on earth, not the saints that have died.

So of course there was NO pre-trib rapture when Jesus died on the cross, and there won't be one before the trib in our near future either.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

And you give no supporting verses from Matt 24 for your claims of Jesus' answering 3 questions and one of them if the rapture happening before the calamity + great tribulation.

I wait.

Are you saying that you do not see the 3 questions given to Jesus from His disciples?

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, ( # 1 )Tell us, when shall these things be? ( #2 ) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, ( #3 ) and of the end of the world?

Or are you saying that you do not see the rapture mentioned in question #2 which is before the end of the world as they know it to be?

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So when does the end comes? After the gospel be preached in all the world. But.. that happens after the rapture when the 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation in all the earth for why it is the time of the great tribulation for how the end will come.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Before verse 6 in Revelation 14th chapter, His words testified of those redeemed from the earth 144,000 virgin men that will serve as His personal choir that follows Him wherever He goes, thus testifying out of those raptured, that those 144,000 virgin men makes up that personal choir of His.

As they were redeemed from the earth as I discern that to mean taken from the earth from among the living.

So I understand why you may not see it still, but I see the truth thanks to Jesus. All I can do is pray that He will help you see this truth too.

 

[Davy]

Are you saying that you do not see the 3 questions given to Jesus from His disciples?

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, ( # 1 )Tell us, when shall these things be? ( #2 ) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, ( #3 ) and of the end of the world?

Or are you saying that you do not see the rapture mentioned in question #2 which is before the end of the world as they know it to be?

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So when does the end comes? After the gospel be preached in all the world. But.. that happens after the rapture when the 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation in all the earth for why it is the time of the great tribulation for how the end will come.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Before verse 6 in Revelation 14th chapter, His words testified of those redeemed from the earth 144,000 virgin men that will serve as His personal choir that follows Him wherever He goes, thus testifying out of those raptured, that those 144,000 virgin men makes up that personal choir of His.

As they were redeemed from the earth as I discern that to mean taken from the earth from among the living.

So I understand why you may not see it still, but I see the truth thanks to Jesus. All I can do is pray that He will help you see this truth too.

That really won't work, because in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses Jesus was specific that the time of gathering of the saints and His coming is AFTER the tribulation He warned of in His Olivet Discourse. That means you cannot insert a rapture into those verses prior to the Matt.24:29-31 verses.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

That really won't work, because in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses Jesus was specific that the time of gathering of the saints and His coming is AFTER the tribulation He warned of in His Olivet Discourse. That means you cannot insert a rapture into those verses prior to the Matt.24:29-31 verses.

Obviously, His answers to the 3 questions put to Him by the disciples are not always in chronological order, so do keep in mind for that when reading Matthew 24 chapter by itself and even with comparing with Mark 13:24-27.

If you consider that in Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus touching down on the Mount of Olives with his feet, splitting the mountain before engaging in battle with the world's armies as this return is with the "pre raptured" saints in verse 5 because in Revelation 20th chapter, Satan is defeated and is in the pit before that resurrection of the saints. That means Jesus has touched down on earth and is on earth and had battled the world's armies and defeating Satan to cast him into the pit for a thousand years.

So the riddle of the "first resurrection" comes into play here. When read for why "first" is being used in that chapter is to explain that the resurrection of the saints as being only the saints as coming out of the great tribulation will happen "first" before the rest of the dead will happen later on. That is all first resurrection meant to convey; not that it was the only and first resurrection of saints.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That is how believers are to apply "first resurrection" in context as meaning that resurrection of only the saints coming out of the great tribulation will happen first before the rest of the dead later on. Per Zechariah 14:1-5 prophesy, the saints are coming back with the Lord and touching down on earth to do it. The resurrected saints coming out of the great tribulation are not meeting the Lord in the air when He is already on earth.

It would explain the separation of Christ the firstfruits from they that be Christ's at His coming in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

May God cause the increase in your search for the truth regarding this topic.

 

[Helen]

Good posts @OzSpen Amen!!
I don't need to post...you are saying it for me. :)

 

[Copperhead]

Secondly, those who resurrected at Jesus' death were not raptured. The idea of the rapture is involving alive saints on earth, not the saints that have died.

Well, according to Iranaeus and many other early Christian writers who actually knew the Apostles or disciples of the Apostles say you are wrong. Now, in the 21st century, we only have speculation on our part about these things, but to categorically say they were not raptured says that those early writers were not being truthful with us. Then it becomes a credibility issue. Someone on a forum, or the early Church writers. They could be wrong but they have a little more clout.

Rapture is from the Latin Raptimer/Raptus that is a simple translation of the Greek Harpazo, which means snatched away, caught up, forcibly removed, etc. It has nothing to do with body changing. And those resurrected saints were alive when it happened. They were not dead.

It is not a salvation issue, so we can debate and disagree.

 

[OzSpen]

Are you saying that you do not see the 3 questions given to Jesus from His disciples?

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, ( # 1 )Tell us, when shall these things be? ( #2 ) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, ( #3 ) and of the end of the world?

JiF,

There is no mention of the rapture in those verses.

You asked:

Or are you saying that you do not see the rapture mentioned in question #2 which is before the end of the world as they know it to be?

Matt 24:4-14 (NIV) provides evidence of the signs that precede the second coming and no mention is made of the rapture. You have imposed that on the text:

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

No rapture there.

So when does the end comes? After the gospel be preached in all the world. But.. that happens after the rapture when the 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation in all the earth for why it is the time of the great tribulation for how the end will come.

That is a personal imposition on the text that you quoted from Matt 24. Nothing in the verses state that.

So I understand why you may not see it still, but I see the truth thanks to Jesus. All I can do is pray that He will help you see this truth too.

The Lord has helped me to 'see this truth' (your words), but it is not a pre-trib rapture but a post-trib rapture.

See my article: A pre-millennial, post-tribulation end times understanding

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Obviously, His answers to the 3 questions put to Him by the disciples are not always in chronological order, so do keep in mind for that when reading Matthew 24 chapter by itself and even with comparing with Mark 13:24-27.

If you consider that in Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus touching down on the Mount of Olives with his feet, splitting the mountain before engaging in battle with the world's armies as this return is with the "pre raptured" saints in verse 5 because in Revelation 20th chapter, Satan is defeated and is in the pit before that resurrection of the saints. That means Jesus has touched down on earth and is on earth and had battled the world's armies and defeating Satan to cast him into the pit for a thousand years.

JiF,

Zech 14:2 (NIV) tells us the context:

I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

It deals with the nations against Jerusalem (Israel): 'A day of the Lord is coming' (Zech 14:1 NIV) - not a day specifically of Jesus' second coming.

The specifics of Zech 14:1-5 are of judgment and then deliverance by Jehovah against Jerusalem. It will be a day of tragedy or destruction for Israel. But this will be an opportunity for the Lord to display His power and glory. Israel will be plundered by all the nations but the rescue will come by the Lord's intervention.

How does one get the rapture out of that Scripture when it's about Jerusalem/Israel?

Oz

 

[Copperhead]

Nothing in Matt 24 directly mentions the removal of the righteous, but it does indirectly.

Matthew 24:7-9 (NASB) For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (NASB) But you are A chosen race, A royal priesthood, A holy nation, A people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not A people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Revelation 12:1-2 (NASB) A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Revelation 12:5 (NASB) And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Ephesians 5:30 (NASB) because we are members of His body.

Revelation 2:26-27 (NASB) He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with A rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JiF,

There is no mention of the rapture in those verses.

You asked:



Matt 24:4-14 (NIV) provides evidence of the signs that precede the second coming and no mention is made of the rapture. You have imposed that on the text:



No rapture there.



That is a personal imposition on the text that you quoted from Matt 24. Nothing in the verses state that.



The Lord has helped me to 'see this truth' (your words), but it is not a pre-trib rapture but a post-trib rapture.

See my article: A pre-millennial, post-tribulation end times understanding

Oz

I can't help you when it is on God to cause the increase. I see the reason why Jesus was warning believers to be ready. You don't.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JiF,

Zech 14:2 (NIV) tells us the context:

It deals with the nations against Jerusalem (Israel): 'A day of the Lord is coming' (Zech 14:1 NIV) - not a day specifically of Jesus' second coming.

The prophesies is about Jesus's second coming if you see an earlier reference in that Book of Zechariah.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

That's Jesus right there, brother, but only God can help you see that.

The specifics of Zech 14:1-5 are of judgment and then deliverance by Jehovah against Jerusalem. It will be a day of tragedy or destruction for Israel. But this will be an opportunity for the Lord to display His power and glory. Israel will be plundered by all the nations but the rescue will come by the Lord's intervention.

How does one get the rapture out of that Scripture when it's about Jerusalem/Israel?

Oz

Apparently, it will have to be a miracle for you as it was for me since God causing the increase is His intervention and thus a miracle.

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

He will be coming back with the pre raptured saints, touching down from above on the Mount of Olives.

 

[OzSpen]

I can't help you when it is on God to cause the increase. I see the reason why Jesus was warning believers to be ready. You don't.

We are not dealing with the same topic.

 

[OzSpen]

The prophesies is about Jesus's second coming if you see an earlier reference in that Book of Zechariah.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

That's Jesus right there, brother, but only God can help you see that.

Apparently, it will have to be a miracle for you as it was for me since God causing the increase is His intervention and thus a miracle.

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

He will be coming back with the pre raptured saints, touching down from above on the Mount of Olives.

Context! Context!

The audience to which this is directed is described in Zech 14:1-5 (NIV). There is nothing about the rapture in Zech 14. It has to do with calamity and restoration for Jerusalem (Israel).

 

[Davy]

Obviously, His answers to the 3 questions put to Him by the disciples are not always in chronological order, so do keep in mind for that when reading Matthew 24 chapter by itself and even with comparing with Mark 13:24-27.

That doesn't prove anything one way or the other, because the signs Jesus was giving in His Olivet Discourse are the Seals of Revelation 6. So those signs don't just stand alone; they are hard linked to other Scripture that also helps maintain their order, like the 1 Thess.4 & 5 chapter's events linked to Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 events of Jesus' return on the "day of the Lord", 2 Thessalonians 2, events of the trumpets and vials too, and many other Scriptures like in the OT prophets, etc.

 

[Davy]

Well, according to Iranaeus and many other early Christian writers who actually knew the Apostles or disciples of the Apostles say you are wrong. Now, in the 21st century, we only have speculation on our part about these things, but to categorically say they were not raptured says that those early writers were not being truthful with us. Then it becomes a credibility issue. Someone on a forum, or the early Church writers. They could be wrong but they have a little more clout.

Rapture is from the Latin Raptimer/Raptus that is a simple translation of the Greek Harpazo, which means snatched away, caught up, forcibly removed, etc. It has nothing to do with body changing. And those resurrected saints were alive when it happened. They were not dead.

It is not a salvation issue, so we can debate and disagree.

Once again, the idea of 1 Thess.4:17 is what the word rapture is about, if you're going to use that term from the Latin Vulgate (the word rapture is not in the Greek NT manuscripts, the Greek word harpazo is, which the KJV translates as "caught up"). Those who came out of their graves when Jesus died on the cross were 'resurrected'. That's a different thing than being "caught up". Not only were those resurrected, they went into Jerusalem and were seen...

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

So NO... those saints WERE NOT ALIVE WHEN THAT HAPPENED. They were in GRAVES! They had been dead.