Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

[JesusIsFaithful]

Again, I get that. But you have put off to the future what He said was [then] "at hand." So my comment to you, is that He spoke of what "quickly" took place...because He himself entered into the kingdom as "the Last" of that "fold", and "It is finished."

So, then, what He eluded to of the future was future, but not for Israel, of whom He was "the Last." Which, if you can receive it, speaks of the timing of events properly, where all things are in Christ in His hour. For we, if we are the believers you refer to, must also believe that we are not crucified or raised up with Him in the "future" (as you would be implying with your "future" explanation), but rather [as it is written] we "were" crucified and raised up with Him [then]. Therefore, the timing is not "future", but past - and all that remains is the second death for "those who are alive and remain."

I shall pray for you, brother, since it is on God to cause the increase. Eventually, we shall all see Him face to face and know all things.

 

[ScottA]

I shall pray for you, brother, since it is on God to cause the increase. Eventually, we shall all see Him face to face and know all things.

Prayer is good. But why pray for me when I have reconciled the fact that we "were" crucified and raised up with Christ during His hour, but you have not reconciled it? Who will pray for you?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Prayer is good. But why pray for me when I have reconciled the fact that we "were" crucified and raised up with Christ during His hour, but you have not reconciled it? Who will pray for you?

I pray for me too. Better safe than sorry, but by His grace, I know God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture and so my hope is in Him to enable me to abide in Him as well as helping me be willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[ScottA]

I pray for me too. Better safe than sorry, but by His grace, I know God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture and so my hope is in Him to enable me to abide in Him as well as helping me be willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.

So..."when the Bridegroom comes"...do you believe you will become One in the spirit, or in the flesh?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

So..."when the Bridegroom comes"...do you believe you will become One in the spirit, or in the flesh?

I believe He will perfect me into a glorified state so I can enter into Heaven to be in the Presence of God the Father where I can sit down with the saints and sup with Jesus at the Marriage Supper table held in His honor and to His glory and thereby hnoring & glorifying God the Father in Heaven.

 

[Copperhead]

Those saints from Matthew 27:52 are in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom which has been taken to Heaven. They have not received their glorified bodies yet. Luke 13:24-30 does testify to sitting down with the O.T. saints and so there are N.T. saints to be taken with the O.T. saints in their new glorified bodies at that rapture event which is what I see as the first harvest; the firstfruits.

They sure received some sort of body. I highly doubt it was a Night of the Living Dead sort of thing going on....

Matthew 27:53 (NKJV) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

It is a common point you make and it is somewhat in line with what the early Christian writers said about Abraham's bosom being taken. But V53 would suggest that these folks did indeed have bodies. They were not in their rotted corpses or bones.

Those are virgin men specified as redeemed from the earth that were designated to be His personal choir that follows Him around in Heaven at the pre great trib rapture. That doesn't mean there were none other raptured. It was a testimony about who and where His personal choir will come from.

I never insinuated that none others are raptured. I was simply making the point that some see these as the 144,000 of the 12 tribes in Revelation, while some see them as coming from the resurrection of Matt 27:52.

 

[ScottA]

I believe He will perfect me into a glorified state so I can enter into Heaven to be in the Presence of God the Father where I can sit down with the saints and sup with Jesus at the Marriage Supper table held in His honor and to His glory and thereby hnoring & glorifying God the Father in Heaven.

...And do you believe that will be in the spirit (as God is spirit) or in the flesh?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

They sure received some sort of body. I highly doubt it was a Night of the Living Dead sort of thing going on....

LOL!! That was funny.

Matthew 27:53 (NKJV) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

It is a common point you make and it is somewhat in line with what the early Christian writers said about Abraham's bosom being taken. But V53 would suggest that these folks did indeed have bodies. They were not in their rotted corpses or bones.

Well, yes, they did have bodies in being resurrected, but not the glorified inheritance that is yet promised to be received by the firstfruits. It is on that point is when they receive their inheritance as firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great trib rapture in joining the Bridegroom at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven. As it is per John 14:1-3, He is still preparing a place even for the O.T. saints, which is why I reckon Paradise is up in Heaven now instead of below the earth where the O.T. saints & N.T. saints are waiting for their first inheritance to receive.

I never insinuated that none others are raptured. I was simply making the point that some see these as the 144,000 of the 12 tribes in Revelation, while some see them as coming from the resurrection of Matt 27:52.

I understand that I do not always come across clear in my posts, and I have come across a few in my times that seemed to believe that was all that was going to be raptured and so I just wanted to make sure you knew that, brother. No harm there, right?

Jude 1:3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I really think the error spoken of in 2 Timothy 2:18 was about Matthew 27:53 for why they think the resurrection was past already but Jesus painted a different picture of both O.T. saints and N.T. saints will be sitting down at that supper table in the latter days where faith is hard to find Luke 13:24-30.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

...And do you believe that will be in the spirit (as God is spirit) or in the flesh?

Jesus has risen and so there will be a celestial body different from the terrestrial one since we will be like Him. Jesus ate after His resurrection. There will be a Marriage Supper in Heaven. He did say He will not drink the wine again until we are together in Heaven. And in Genesis 18th chapter as citing one of the many of the Lord's appearances to man in seeing Him face to face, the Lord ate & drank with Abraham before His incarnation to a terrestrial body from His celestial one. The Lord did testify that Abraham had seen Him too.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Hope that clears up your question.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus has risen and so there will be a celestial body different from the terrestrial one since we will be like Him. Jesus ate after His resurrection. There will be a Marriage Supper in Heaven. He did say He will not drink the wine again until we are together in Heaven. And in Genesis 18th chapter as citing one of the many of the Lord's appearances to man in seeing Him face to face, the Lord ate & drank with Abraham before His incarnation to a terrestrial body from His celestial one. The Lord did testify that Abraham had seen Him too.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Hope that clears up your question.

My question was not for my sake, but for yours.

You have misconstrued the timing of events, therefore you also confuse the fate of the flesh with that of the spirit. The error is in assuming that the resurrection of the body of Christ is proof of a physical ascension. This is the teaching of men who believe in what is seen, and not what is unseen - but God is unseen, and therefore they error regarding the ascension.

The resurrection rather, is proof of Christ's power over death. But only His ascension (in spirit) is proof of His power over life. The one regards death, while the other regards life. Confusing or mixing the two is a grave error.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

My question was not for my sake, but for yours.

You have misconstrued the timing of events, therefore you also confuse the fate of the flesh with that of the spirit. The error is in assuming that the resurrection of the body of Christ is proof of a physical ascension. This is the teaching of men who believe in what is seen, and not what is unseen - but God is unseen, and therefore they error regarding the ascension.

The resurrection rather, is proof of Christ's power over death. But only His ascension (in spirit) is proof of His power over life. The one regards death, while the other regards life. Confusing or mixing the two is a grave error.

Since we all prophesy in part and know in part, you will know in time when His words come to pass unless of course, the Lord reveals the truth to you before the time comes.

 

[OzSpen]

Thank you for sharing, but... His disciples had asked Jesus 3 questions and He was not answering them in order so you have to discern by Him which verses pertains to which of the 3 questions.

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first question was about the Temple being thrown down in 70 A.D.

The second question is in regard to signs of His appearing aka the rapture.

The third question is the end of the world aka the great tribulation as in a changed & oppressed world from what we are living in now.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Verse 14 above is really referring to the first angel after the rapture in spreading the everlasting gospel everywhere as prophesied in Revelation 14:6-7

So when it jumps ahead to the middle of the great tribulation....Matthew 24:15-21 that pertains to the Jewish people that He was speaking to.

Then I discern a time shift in relation to that time of the great tribulation where the days of the elect were shortened due to the rapture before that great tribulation, otherwise no flesh could be saved, hence their bodies changed and taken.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then Jesus was taking about the answers to the second question; the sign of His coming as many believers are saying the spirit of Christ is here or there and signs and lying wonders are present by those visitations. That is the tribulation we are living in now when saints depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. 1 Timothy 4:1-2 believing that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign apart from salvation when that iniquity was already at work in Paul's days in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter from which they risk being damned for believing that lie in becoming castaways in being received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation. That was why Paul reminded them when they ha received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel and no other calling: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

Then Jesus goes on to describe what the living conditions will be like before the believers that are ready and abiding in Him & willing to leave this life behind are taken and it is NOT descriptive of what it would be like for believers at the end of the great tribulation. Then He touches base again on that tribulation before the rapture in how many believers will suffer their houses to be broken through as believers "open" themselves up to receive other spirits bringing signs and lying wonders, thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation again and again and again

So God will judge His House first at the rapture event, excommunicating workers of iniquity unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes and THEN at the end of the great tribulation, He will return with the pre raptured saints to defeat the world's armies and then put Satan in the pit and then resurrect those saints that were left behind as well as new believers that were killed after the great tribulation.

Do note that those saints resurrected are not meeting the Lord in the air, but on the ground because this event was after the world's armies was defeated and Satan was put in the pit as Revelation 20 dictated the order of events.

All I can say is Matthew 24 is not on chronological order and we need His wisdom in discerning which question He is answering in how they line up with everything else in the Bible about the latter days. Only He can show you. I know I cannot, but I see it thanks to Him.

My issues raised still remain unanswered.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, yes, they did have bodies in being resurrected, but not the glorified inheritance that is yet promised to be received by the firstfruits. It is on that point is when they receive their inheritance as firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great trib rapture in joining the Bridegroom at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven. As it is per John 14:1-3, He is still preparing a place even for the O.T. saints, which is why I reckon Paradise is up in Heaven now instead of below the earth where the O.T. saints & N.T. saints are waiting for their first inheritance to receive.

That has been one traditional view. But those early writers that had direct contact with the disciples say that those saints were taken to heaven. They would've had bodies that could face the Father, being the sheave offering of first fruits to the Father. it really isn't that big of a stretch to think so. Enoch and Elijah are there. And they are not there in spirit only. They were taken, and scripture unequivocally states that Elijah was seen going up full body. He even thru his Tallit back to Elisha when he went up.

It is not clear from either the scripture or early writers if these saints included all the OT saints or not. Probably not. There is some allusion in some o the early church writings that Abraham's bosom was taken to heaven at Yeshua's resurrection, but what all that entails is a guess. But they were OT saints. Anything prior to the Passover of Yeshua's death was OT. He only established the New Covenant at the last supper event.

 

[Jay Ross]

My issues raised still remain unanswered.

Is that a waffle or a baffle there Jack. Went there about this time last year and the woman in charge told us that we should have booked.

Now I live just north of the logan within sight of Pannikin to my north east and half a click from the midge breading grounds but vicks lessens the itch near a scenic location, or so the sign claims pointing in my direction. It may be good to face to face debate some of the topics on here. Send a message to my inbox, if you are interested.

Shalom

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

My issues raised still remain unanswered.

Not when you are taking Matthew 24th chapter as if it applies to the times before the great tribulation as well as the great tribulation altogether for how Jesus was answering the 3 questions put to Him by the disciples. If you did it that way, then the throwing down of the stones of the Temple they were looking at in Jerusalem would imply that the great tribulation had already happened in 70 A.D. if you group all of Jesus's answers together.

So your issue has been addressed because I said you need His wisdom to discern which part of Matthew 24th chapter applies to which of the 3 questions Jesus is answering His disciples about, because some of it has already happened while others are happening right now and others have yet to happen as significant as the rapture is to happen before calamity comes from which the great tribulation shall arise from.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

That has been one traditional view. But those early writers that had direct contact with the disciples say that those saints were taken to heaven. They would've had bodies that could face the Father, being the sheave offering of first fruits to the Father. it really isn't that big of a stretch to think so. Enoch and Elijah are there. And they are not there in spirit only. They were taken, and scripture unequivocally states that Elijah was seen going up full body. He even thru his Tallit back to Elisha when he went up.

It is not clear from either the scripture or early writers if these saints included all the OT saints or not. Probably not. There is some allusion in some o the early church writings that Abraham's bosom was taken to heaven at Yeshua's resurrection, but what all that entails is a guess. But they were OT saints. Anything prior to the Passover of Yeshua's death was OT. He only established the New Covenant at the last supper event.

Enoch & Elijah are not there because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither are the O.T. saints in their glorified state when Paul as led by the Holy Spirit had written this;

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Jesus also had said...

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So when the Bible spoke of them being taken to the heavens as in the upper atmosphere, that was not to God's Heaven as in the third heaven.

Where did they go? I suspect that they shall be the actual 2 witnesses at Jerusalem for the duration of the great tribulation. There is precedent for that speculation when after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch, Philip was transported by the Spirit to another place on earth.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

So I believe that both Enoch & Elijah are traveling through time at this moment which to them it may be very quickly to them since they will not have aged for all those years when they arrive in Jerusalem during the great tribulation to serve the Lord as those prophesied two witnesses.

 

[Copperhead]

Enoch & Elijah are not there because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither are the O.T. saints in their glorified state when Paul as led by the Holy Spirit had written this;

Genesis 5:24 (NKJV) And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Well, seems pretty clear. Doesn't say God sent him somewhere. Doesn't say God put him in storage for a later time. It clearly says God took him. So, do I believe Moses or you?

2 Kings 2:11 (NKJV) Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You know.... you really need to put some more time into on your Bible study and not be caught up in Star Trek time warp sort of philosophies.

And whether Elijah is one of the witnesses of Revelation, that is only speculation by any of us. The scripture doesn't say who these witnesses actually are. And I think there is good reason for not doing so. We can try to infer who they are based on what they do, but that is pure speculation. So I really don't waste a lot of time worrying about minutia like that. The Revelation account of the events is fine for me all by themselves.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Genesis 5:24 (NKJV) And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Well, seems pretty clear. Doesn't say God sent him somewhere. Doesn't say God put him in storage for a later time. It clearly says God took him. So, do I believe Moses or you?

2 Kings 2:11 (NKJV) Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You know.... you really need to put some more time into on your Bible study and not be caught up in Star Trek time warp sort of philosophies.

And whether Elijah is one of the witnesses of Revelation, that is only speculation by any of us. The scripture doesn't say who these witnesses actually are. And I think there is good reason for not doing so. We can try to infer who they are based on what they do, but that is pure speculation. So I really don't waste a lot of time worrying about minutia like that. The Revelation account of the events is fine for me all by themselves.

I am aware of those verses but the scripture in the N.T. says you are applying those verses wrongly and assuming much.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I believe Jesus. I also believe Moses, but I do believe you are applying Moses's words wrongly. There is a third heaven where God's throne is, and then there are the other two kinds of heavens; the upper atmosphere and outer space.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If the O.T. saints in Abraham's bosom needed Jesus to descend to them to preach the gospel to them in order for them to believe and for Christ to be ABLE to bring them to God the Father in Heaven, then the same is required for Enoch & Elijah since they were born in sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It would explain where the 2 witnesses came from and why they will "die" and resurrect during the great tribulation.

 

[Copperhead]

Then we have a conflict, don't we JIF? Or an apparent one. No problem. This topic is not a condition of salvation, so you are free to choose what you believe about those saints in Matt 27 and I am free to choose what I want to believe about them. We will eventually learn what the facts are at a later time. The fact that we don't see it the same way does not affect my sleep in any way.

But just to quibble a little more.

John 3:13 (NKJV) No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

True statement if there ever was one! No one has ascended to heaven! No problem.

But that doesn't mean none have been taken or caught up to heaven. Nicodemus in the passage would have surely questioned that, being a teacher of the Scripture, if the idea that none have gone to heaven is true as you assert. The context of the verse here is one ascending to descending based on their own power or authority. The context is asserting that only Yeshua can make that claim.

So, yeah, I believe Yeshua also!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Then we have a conflict, don't we JIF? Or an apparent one. No problem. This topic is not a condition of salvation, so you are free to choose what you believe about those saints in Matt 27 and I am free to choose what I want to believe about them. We will eventually learn what the facts are at a later time. The fact that we don't see it the same way does not affect my sleep in any way.

We prophesy in part & know in part. I am sure we will know everything when face to face with Jesus Christ.

But just to quibble a little more.

John 3:13 (NKJV) No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

True statement if there ever was one! No one has ascended to heaven! No problem.

But that doesn't mean none have been taken or caught up to heaven.

Just pointing out that heaven in the scripture does not necessarily mean God's throne for where I believe those 2 guys were not taken, but elsewhere.

The context of the verse here is one ascending to descending based on their own power or authority. The context is asserting that only Yeshua can make that claim.

Actually, I was referring to that verse as "part" of His claim in leading the way into Heaven to provide a place for the saved to be with God the Father.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It is because Jesus led the way is how the apostle John was caught up to the third heaven for which Paul did testify of.

2 Corinthians 2:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Jesus led the captivity captive where Abraham's bosom aka Paradise, is now in Heaven since His ascension for how the apostle John was caught up.

At any rate, I do not see how those 2 can be brought into the Third Heaven until Jesus has led the way for them so...

But I am sure we shall all find out in due time when face to face with the Lord.