Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Scott Downey]

Explain this then...

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

How were these people that Paul rebuked "in Christ" if the carnal mind cannot believe in Christ? You are interpreting Romans 8 in such a way that contradicts 1 Corinthians 3. You are not being careful with how you are interpreting scripture. You can't interpret any passage in isolation from the rest of scripture without making sure you are not contradicting any other scripture.

Does not invalidate Romans 8 though. Enmity prevents reconciliation
There are different kinds of carnality being spoken of by Paul. For saved carnal Christians, they are living to much indulgence in the flesh and not their spirit, but they do not have this enmity in their mind against God.

While the unsaved carnal mind has this enmity against God. That is the difference.

7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

IF they cannot be submitted to the Law of God, then they won't be hearing God speak telling them to repent.
Like Jesus said in John 8, they do not listen, as they are not able to listen.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

Where else do read of enmity, which is extreme dislike and hatred even?


Genesis 3
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

 

[covenantee]

However, despite the harsh punishment, God will not completely destroy Israel—only the sinful ones will perish.

Of course. The righteous remnant of grain will not fall. Amos 9:9

But the sinners will perish. Amos 9:10

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Scott Downey]

We only listen to God as God has given us the ability to listen to what He says, and respond positively to God.
No ears to hear what the Spirit speaks is common condition for the unsaved.
Having ears to hear comes only from God.

Example

Deuteronomy 29
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders.

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to [a]perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

As Jesus said,
Matthew 11:15
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Why don't they hear? They are not of the Spirit of God, as in born again.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 11:8
Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does not invalidate Romans 8 though. Enmity prevents reconciliation

Of course it doesn't. But, it shows that you don't understand what Romans 8 is saying. Being carnal does not prevent someone from seeing their need to repent and put their faith in Christ. Being carnal means you are not mature and not ready to understand the deeper things of God and His word. I'm not going to talk about this with you anymore since you are clearly not willing to be reasonable about it. You will try to get around anything I say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 11:8
Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”

That was said in relation to the unbelieving Israelites of Paul's day. And what do you think that means? Do you think that was a permanent condition? If so, why did Paul go on to say that he hoped to save some of them by way of making them jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, it does. Being carnal does not prevent someone from seeing their need to repent and put their faith in Christ. Being carnal means you are not mature and not ready to understand the deeper things of God and His word. I'm not going to talk about this with you anymore since you are clearly not willing to be reasonable about it. You will try to get around anything I say.

Nope, you are refusing to acknowledge what is clear as day about How God saves us.
You do realize to be carnally minded is death?

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope, you are refusing to acknowledge what is clear as day about How God saves us.
You do realize to be carnally minded is death?

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Of course I realize that. But, you are cherry picking scripture. You are acting as if 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 doesn't exist. Why do you think that Paul was upset with those babes in Christ? Because being carnally minded is death. He didn't want them to fall away and wanted them to grow in the faith instead.

 

[Scott Downey]

That was said in relation to the unbelieving Israelites of Paul's day. And what do you think that means? Do you think that was a permanent condition? If so, why did Paul go on to say that he hoped to save some of them by way of making them jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Only if God gives them ears to hear what He says...
NO person can force anyone to believe on the inside, only God changes the heart.

You do not acknowledge God's role in saving us at all, placing it primarily on the man.
When it says saved by grace, granted you your belief, gifted you your faith, you gloss over what that truly means.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only if God gives them ears to hear what He says...
NO person can force anyone to believe on the inside, only God changes the heart.

You evade every point I make. You are brainwashed by Calvinist doctrine. When you posted Romans 11:8, what was your reason for posting it? Were you not intending to make the point that those who are blinded are blinded permanently because they are not chosen?

You do not acknowledge God's role in saving us at all, placing it primarily on the man.

No, I do not. Go argue with your strawman somewhere else. God does all the work, but we are required to accept what He did when He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) by responding with repentance and faith.

When it says saved by grace, granted you your belief, you gloss over what that truly means.

You gloss over the many scriptures which teach that we are responsible to willing put our trust in Christ. Nowhere does it say that God does that for us. You remove all responsibility from man despite the fact that scripture repeatedly talks about man's responsibility. We are not saved by works or our own righteousness, but we are saved by grace through our personal faith that we put in Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course I realize that. But, you are cherry picking scripture. You are acting as if 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 doesn't exist. Why do you think that Paul was upset with those babes in Christ? Because being carnally minded is death. He didn't want them to fall away and wanted them to grow in the faith instead.

Paul is also concerned they are false believers, fake brethren. Not all have faith, some have no knowledge of God even in the church back then..
If you live according to the flesh, this is not a sign they are saved.
It is why he says it like this.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Scott Downey]

Paul says many in churches whom he weeps over are DOOMED to destruction, enemies of the cross of Christ.

Philippians 3
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

This is your basic carnally minded person in a church, who live according to the flesh and do not have the Spirit of God. As they are not of God, these people are not born again, they are not saved. Just false brethren. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul is also concerned they are false believers, fake brethren.

You are twisting the text to fit your doctrine. No, he was not concerned about that. You are adding that to the text. He was concerned about them falling away as a result of not growing in their faith. He would not have called them "babes IN CHRIST" if they were not, in fact, in Christ (saved Christians).

 

[Scott Downey]

You evade every point I make. You are brainwashed by Calvinist doctrine. When you posted Romans 11:8, what was your reason for posting it? Were you not intending to make the point that those who are blinded are blinded permanently because they are not chosen?


No, I do not. Go argue with your strawman somewhere else. God does all the work, but we are required to accept what He did when He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) by responding with repentance and faith.


You gloss over the many scriptures which teach that we are responsible to willing put our trust in Christ. Nowhere does it say that God does that for us. You remove all responsibility from man despite the fact that scripture repeatedly talks about man's responsibility. We are not saved by works or our own righteousness, but we are saved by grace through our personal faith that we put in Christ.

You cannot be saved unless God first makes you born again, only then can you both see and enter the kingdom of God.
You have no real idea of what it means to be 'of God' or you would not say the things you do.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God, hears God’s words; therefore, you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

You are twisting the text to fit your doctrine. No, he was not concerned about that. You are adding that to the text. He was concerned about them falling away as a result of not growing in their faith. He would not have called them "babes IN CHRIST" if they were not, in fact, in Christ (saved Christians).

Not even the apostles knew absolutely who was saved and who is not saved, that is why in all their letters they wrote plenty of warnings!
Even your own self, you could fall away and not have been an elect believer. I have known some to depart the faith, even some who seemed strong believers.

Jesus taught you must be granted by the Father to come to Christ and be saved; this is a true aspect of the faith you don't want any part of. In your thinking seems to me God has granted all to believe. Are you a universalist?

John 6
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more.

 

[Scott Downey]

Who here denies that your faith is the gift of God?
Who here denies that your very belief in Christ has been granted to you?
I know of plenty that deny this.
Even if the scripture says it, they deny it.
Course they also deny many other scriptures.
Take your pick of Christian religious philosophies, forums offer loads of evidence.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You cannot be saved unless God first makes you born again, only then can you both see and enter the kingdom of God.
You have no real idea of what it means to be 'of God' or you would not say the things you do.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God, hears God’s words; therefore, you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

He did not say you have to be born again to repent and have faith.

Tell me, did the disciples believe in Christ before or after this happened...

John 20:21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The fruit of the Spirit, one is being faithful. God has dealt to each one in the church a certain amount of faith. Some have more, some less.
Faith comes from God, faithfulness to Christ is a mark of the work of God in your life, that you are saved. God only saves believers.
When God grants faith as His gift to you, it becomes your faith as He gave it to you.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

God is not a failure, His word performs the purpose for which He sends it.
His work is that you believe, He never fails in this.
John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who here denies that your faith is the gift of God?
Who here denies that your very belief in Christ has been granted to you?
I know of plenty that deny this.

I do. I deny the teaching that man has no responsibility to make a choice in relation to salvation.

Joshua 24:14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Acts 16:30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

How would you answer a random person who came up to you and asked you what he or she needs to do to be saved?

Even if the scripture says it, they deny it.

The scripture dosn't sa yit. It says salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. Salvation is the gift of God which lines up with Romans 6:23 saying that eternal life is the gift of God.

Course they also deny many other scriptures.

You deny what is taught in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, so you can't talk.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not even the apostles knew absolutely who was saved and who is not saved, that is why in all their letters they wrote plenty of warnings!

Why do you underestimate Paul's discernment? He was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Do you think the Holy Spirit who inspired 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 didn't know whether the people Paul was addressing were in Christ or not? It would be foolish for Paul to say they were in Christ if he did not know if they were in Christ or not. You make Paul out to be a fool and you make 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 uninspired!