The Coming Rapture

[PinSeeker]

And yet you can't produce anything I am adding...

The "rapture" is but one, and the idea of a rapture spawns a multitude of others in the effort to support it.

Darby was correct.

He was not.

Daniel 12 is talking about MANY of the people that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised.

And so is Jesus. The term 'many' can mean a portion or a fraction of all, but it can actually also mean all, depending on the context in which it appears. Daniel's context there is 'all,' as evidenced by the fact that in the same sentence he talks about "some awaking to everlasting life" and "some awaking to everlasting contempt."

John 5 is talking about ALL that are still in the ground will come out. Two completely separate events.

Absolutely not:

Daniel 12:2 ~ "at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

John 5:28-29 ~ "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

If you don't see the close connection between the two, you just don't see it, I guess...

I am not calling that two folds. When MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake........this occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus comes to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Those gathered from the earth.......dead and alive are the second fold.

Hm. Well, wrong still; I disagree. See above.

Those gathered from heaven are the first fold that were taken to heaven at the pretrib rapture.

No rapture. And we are in the period of tribulation now. And... Christ is with us, just as He said he would always be.

This is the rapture...

Nope. The Light, there's no need for any "rapture." When Jesus returns, He will defeat Satan once and for all, and, after the final Judgment and the unrepentant have departed, eternity begins.

There are two folds that become one fold.

In your opinion. Yeah, that's fine. It's incorrect, and I've posted numerous scriptures that debunk such a thought, but... fair enough.

If you don't want to admit that FACT...

What's very interesting to me is that of all the scriptures I've cited, all I've gotten is crickets from you. No rebuttal or any kind of offering of some different understanding or interpretation of those things. a slight variation of Martin Luther's closing words at the Synod of Dordt is applicable and appropriate, here... Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason, I do not accept your "fact" as fact at all, as my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.

it just shows you are interested in doctrine and not truth.

Both are of great importance; they must coincide.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

The "rapture" is but one, and the idea of a rapture spawns a multitude of others in the effort to support it.

Here is a rapture that occurs at the 6th seal. But you think this event occurs at the end of wrath........I think. Which it does not.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And so is Jesus. The term 'many' can mean a portion or a fraction of all, but it can actually also mean all, depending on the context in which it appears. Daniel's context there is 'all,' as evidenced by the fact that in the same sentence he talks about "some awaking to everlasting life" and "some awaking to everlasting contempt."

Which in no way negates MANY of them being raised and not all them being raised. Additionally we are talking about DANIELS PEOPLE. So as usual, your view is left wanting.

Daniel 12:2 ~ "at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

John 5:28-29 ~ "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

If you don't see the close connection between the two, you just don't see it, I guess...

Oh I see the connection between the two. Daniel 12 is talking about MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth are raised. And this event occurs at the 6th seal.

John 5 says ALL are raised. And this occurs in Revelation 11 after Armageddon.

So the connection is the Church is raptured before the great tribulation when the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive that remain. This is the fold.

Then at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth are raised. These are of the 12 tribes across the earth that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This rapture is the second fold. Both folds are brought to heaven as one fold.......the great multitude.

Then at the end of wrath it is the time of judgement. ALL that remain in the dust of the earth are raised at this time.

No rapture. And we are in the period of tribulation now. And... Christ is with us, just as He said he would always be.

No seals are opened. We are not in the great tribulation.

Nope. The Light, there's no need for any "rapture." When Jesus returns, He will defeat Satan once and for all, and, after the final Judgment and the unrepentant have departed, eternity begins.

I figured you thought there was a rapture at the end.

You really need to study more.

What's very interesting to me is that of all the scriptures I've cited, all I've gotten is crickets from you. No rebuttal or any kind of offering of some different understanding or interpretation of those things. a slight variation of Martin Luther's closing words at the Synod of Dordt is applicable and appropriate, here... Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason, I do not accept your "fact" as fact at all, as my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.

Not sure what you mean. MANY IS MANY................NOT ALL.

2 folds join and become one fold.

No seal are opened and we are not in the great tribulation which is the tribulation of those days.

If you have anything specific that I have missed point it out to me.

 

[ewq1938]

1. The seals are in chronological order.
2. The events happen when the seals are opened.

In your opinion what is the order of the 7 seals?

I don't know except a couple are identifiable. The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved and those events happen at the 7th trump, the last of the events. So if the seals were in order, it would have been 7th matching the 7th trump. The "first" seal IMO is the false Christ 2which is something that happens in the 6th trump. This is why I say the seals are not in chronological order. I am not sure on the order of the rest but my belief is the seals speak of trumpet events, with each seal representing events of one of the trumps. If you look at the text, 5teh first seal is not called "1" or "first".....just he opens "one of the seals" but we have to deduce which one he opened. I think he started with seal number 6 representing the 6th trump when the false christ comes to conquer the saints.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And so is Jesus. The term 'many' can mean a portion or a fraction of all, but it can actually also mean all, depending on the context in which it appears. Daniel's context there is 'all,' as evidenced by the fact that in the same sentence he talks about "some awaking to everlasting life" and "some awaking to everlasting contempt."

I have made this same point to him several times and he just doesn't get it. The same word translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2 is used here...

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

I pointed this out to him before and showed how this refers to all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land, the number of which was "many". So, in this case, "many" means "all" because it refers to all of the days Abraham was in that land and it was "many days". And he just dismissed the argument. So, it's impossible to get him to understand this.

What's very interesting to me is that of all the scriptures I've cited, all I've gotten is crickets from you. No rebuttal or any kind of offering of some different understanding or interpretation of those things.

That's what he does. He will expect you to address every single one of his points and every scripture that he cites, though. That's really fair, eh?

 

[The Light]

I have made this same point to him several times and he just doesn't get it. The same word translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2 is used here...

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

How do you not understand that you are proving my point?

And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines land MANY days.................... Did Abraham sojourn in the Philistines land ALL of his days or MANY days? MANY DAYS.

Genesis 22
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

I am not sure why you don't understand the difference between MANY and ALL. They are not the same thing. Ask your second grade teacher.

\

I pointed this out to him before and showed how this refers to all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land, the number of which was "many". So, in this case, "many" means "all" because it refers to all of the days Abraham was in that land and it was "many days". And he just dismissed the argument. So, it's impossible to get him to understand this.

See above. Abraham was not in the land of the Philistines ALL of his days. How can you not understand the difference between many and all?

That's what he does. He will expect you to address every single one of his points and every scripture that he cites, though. That's really fair, eh?

I will address anything you have.

As I have told you before, if I don't address something that you think is important, just repost it and ask me to address it.

I don't spiritualize anything. The Word says what it says. 144,000 first fruits from twelve tribes of Israel means EXACTLY what it says. And many means many and all means all.

 

[The Light]

I don't know except a couple are identifiable. The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved and those events happen at the 7th trump, the last of the events.

This is just not true. You are misunderstanding what the scripture is saying. When I point out to you the truth all you say is that the seals don't occur when they are opened, even though in John's revelation it says.................and when he opened (whatever seal) I SAW. In other words, when the seal is opened, the evert will occur. You may think (and I don't remember if you do) that the seals are already opened, but it's easy enough to prove they are not.

As for this comment "The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved and those events happen at the 7th trump, the last of the events."

This is just wrong. The sixth seal is the gathering from heaven and earth. God is removing the righteous before the 7th seal is opened which contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of Gods wrath.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

There is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. They have been raptured from the earth and are in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. All that are in heaven will return with the Lord as part of the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

So if the seals were in order, it would have been 7th matching the 7th trump.

The seals are in order. However, the 7th seal does not match the 7th trump. The 7th trump is contained within the 7th seal. So the 6th seal is opened and Jesus returns for a harvest before the 7th seal is opened. When the 7th seal is opened, there are 6 trumpets and 6 vials that occur before the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. In other words the 6th seal is not the 7th trumpet.

The "first" seal IMO is the false Christ 2which is something that happens in the 6th trump. This is why I say the seals are not in chronological order.

The first seal is a false Christ, the rider on the white horse. That has nothing to do with the 6th trumpet. We have to go through the beginning of sorrows which are the 1st 4 seals before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. The great tribulation is when believers are killed for not taking the mark. The great tribulation is cut short or there would be no one raptured alive when He comes at the 6th seal for the harvest before wrath.

Then the 7th seal is opened and after 30 minutes of silence the 1st trumpet and the 1st vial are poured out. Then the 2 second trumpet and the 2nd vial are poured out, etc. etc. etc.

I am not sure on the order of the rest but my belief is the seals speak of trumpet events,

Thy do not. The 7 trumpets are contained in the 7th seal as are 7 vials.

with each seal representing events of one of the trumps. If you look at the text, 5teh first seal is not called "1" or "first".....just he opens "one of the seals" but we have to deduce which one he opened. I think he started with seal number 6 representing the 6th trump when the false christ comes to conquer the saints.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Is there anything that rules out one of the seals being the 1st seal.

So He opens one of the seals and rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. Then He opens the second seal and that event happens. This goes all the way to the 7th seal which contains all 7 trumpets and all 7 vials.

It is impossible for the 6th seal to be the 7th trumpet because the 7th trumpet is contained in the 7th seal.

Everything flows perfectly if you just get out of the way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do you not understand that you are proving my point?

LOL! How do you not understand that I'm disproving yours?

And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines land MANY days.................... Did Abraham sojourn in the Philistines land ALL of his days or MANY days? MANY DAYS.

Genesis 22
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

I am not sure why you don't understand the difference between MANY and ALL. They are not the same thing. Ask your second grade teacher.

You are not even thinking here. Is it referring to ALL of the days that Abraham sojourned in Philistine or just some of them? It's referring to all of the days he was there and refers to the number of all of those days as "many". If he was only there for a few days instead of many days it would have said he was there for "few days" but it still would be referring to ALL of the days that he was there. This is a simple concept that any second grader can understand, yet you can't understand it.

The word "many" does not mean "not all"! Hello? Show me a definition of the word "many" that means "not all". Good luck. Many of something can refer to all of something or some of something. A synonym is "a multitude". If I say that many or a multitude of people attended a concert, am I referring to all or some of the people who attended the concert?

See above. Abraham was not in the land of the Philistines ALL of his days. How can you not understand the difference between many and all?

LOL. Are you even trying to see the point or are you playing a game here? The context of the verse isn't in relation to all of the days of his life, but rather to the days he was in the land of the Philistines. Is it referring only to some of the days he was there or all of them?

 

[PinSeeker]

Here is a rapture that occurs at the 6th seal. But you think this event occurs at the end of wrath........I think.

As I have said many times ~ all the times that I have said it... see what I did there? ~ there is no "rapture," but yes, Jesus will return, not at "the end of wrath," but at the end of the period of tribulation... after that period has come to a close.

Oh I see the connection between the two.

But still ignore or deny it... <smile>

So the connection is the Church is raptured before the great tribulation when the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive that remain.

No... no, that's not it... <smile>

We are not in the great tribulation.

We are not yet in the period Daniel spoke of in Daniel 12:1 ("there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time") ~ which is the very same time of which Jesus also spoke in Matthew 24:21 ("for then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be"...) ~ but it may be very close.

But we are in the period of tribulation and have been for about 2000 years now. <smile> Life is hard. As Jesus says in John 16:33, "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." And as James says, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness... let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." But this is only for a little while... As the writer of Hebrews (10:36-39) says, "(we) have need of endurance, so that when (we) have done the will of God (we) may receive what is promised. For, 'Yet a little while, and the coming One will come and will not delay; but My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.' But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls."

I figured you thought there was a rapture at the end.

Even though I've literally said, many, many times (all the times I've said it... see what I did there?)... and will do so again here... that there is not?

You really need to study more.

<smile> Okay, well, right back atcha, The Light. I mean yes, we all do. But studying will do you no good, really, unless... <smile>

Not sure what you mean.

I think you are, you're just... avoiding, it seems... or just playing ignorant.

MANY IS MANY................NOT ALL.

In Daniel's context in Daniel 12:2, 'many' is 'all.' The "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth" is made up of two parts, "some to everlasting life" and "some to shame and everlasting contempt." So it's clearly an amalgamation of the whole. And that's the 1:1 connection with what Jesus says in John 5:28-29 ~ "all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ and we see it graphically in Jesus's depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 and John's in Revelation 20:11-15.

2 folds join and become one fold.

Well, two ethnicities (Jew and Gentile, but of course 'Gentile' is not a single ethnicity but a term covering all other ethnicities) become one people under God... those who God calls, of course... His elect, so true Jews of God by His Spirit, and thus of His household, His Isreal. If you want to call that "two folds becoming one," I have no problem with that, but it really always was and always will be one fold, Jesus's sheep, of whom He is the Good Shepherd.

As of now, there are still some to be brought in, and such is our commission, our mandate from Jesus Himself to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded..." (Matthew 28:19-20).

But one day ~ maybe very soon, even as we think of "soon" ~ Israel will be complete (Romans 11:25-26; Revelation 20:1-6). And that will prompt the time of great tribulation (Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21, cited above), then Satan's short-lived loosing, and then Jesus's return and final defeat of Satan (Revelation 20:7-10), and then the final Judgment, and then the sending away of the unrepentant, and then the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:11-21:8).

No seal are opened

Disagree. Not all of them. The first five are still ongoing; the four horsemen of 6:1-8 represent conquest, war, famine, and death, and as such... tribulation. <smile>

we are not in the great tribulation...

Agree. Not yet.

If you have anything specific that I have missed point it out to me.

<smile>

Grace and peace to you, The Light.

 

[The Light]

You are not even thinking here. Is it referring to ALL of the days that Abraham sojourned in Philistine or just some of them? It's referring to all of the days he was there and refers to the number of all of those days as "many". If he was only there for a few days instead of many days it would have said he was there for "few days" but it still would be referring to ALL of the days that he was there. This is a simple concept that any second grader can understand, yet you can't understand it.

Let's stick to the scriptures in question. The Word says Michael will stand up and there will be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time. At that time the people of Daniel will be delivered, everyone that shall be written in the book.

The Word only says that the people of Daniel will be delivered. Does the Word say ALL the people that are in the dust of the earth will be raised. No. It says Many of the people that are in the dust of the earth will be raised. Those that will be raised are the people of Daniel.

This of course fits perfectly with the second harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. It is the people of Daniel that go through the great tribulation as the first fold is already in heaven before the great tribulation. Which fits perfectly with blindness being removed from part of Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits prior to the second harvest. Everyone in his order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

In summary it is only the people of Daniel that are raptured at the 6th seal. The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. That leaves the second fold which are the people of Daniel to be raised at the last trump, which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I have said many times ~ all the times that I have said it... see what I did there? ~

I like what you did there. But I don't doubt that "The Light" will find a way to argue that the many times you said it are not all the times that you have said it.

In Daniel's context in Daniel 12:2, 'many' is 'all.' The "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth" is made up of two parts, "some to everlasting life" and "some to shame and everlasting contempt." So it's clearly an amalgamation of the whole. And that's the 1:1 connection with what Jesus says in John 5:28-29 ~ "all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ and we see it graphically in Jesus's depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 and John's in Revelation 20:11-15.

Right.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's stick to the scriptures in question.

Sure, but not to the exclusion of all other scriptures that can help shed light on the scriptures in question.

The Word says Michael will stand up and there will be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time. At that time the people of Daniel will be delivered, everyone that shall be written in the book.

Yep.

The Word only says that the people of Daniel will be delivered.

Nope. You are reading something into the text that isn't there as you so often do. I can understand why you would want to just interpret this verse in isolation from other scripture. That is because your interpretation cannot be supported by any other scripture.

You're making what is called an argument from silence here. Just because a verse mentions something that will happen to a certain group of people does not mean that same thing can't also happen to other people at the same time. Jesus made it very clear that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29). Why in the world would you ask to only look at the scriptures in question? Do you not care whether or not your interpretations of these scriptures line up with the rest of scripture? I truly do not understand your approach to interpreting scripture at all.

In terms of believers, Paul said they all will be resurrected at the same time (1 Corinthians 15:22-23), so why would you think that Jewish believers would be resurrected separately from Gentile believers?

Does the Word say ALL the people that are in the dust of the earth will be raised. No. It says Many of the people that are in the dust of the earth will be raised. Those that will be raised are the people of Daniel.

For crying out loud! Will you stop making this ridiculous argument? You are unbelievably stubborn! Isn't it clear by now that I will never buy into this ludicrous reasoning? How many times do I have to tell you that "many" does not have to mean "not all"?

@PinSeeker made a simple illustration in his latest post of how flawed that kind of thinking is. In relation to something he has said multiple times before, he said "As I have said many times ~ all the times that I have said it..". So, are the many times he said that particular thing not all of the times that he said it? No, right? The many times he said it are all the times he said it. So, can you see how the word many can refer to all of something? If you still can't see that, then it's clear that you have decided to allow doctrinal bias to completely cloud your vision and you have lost all sense of reason.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know except a couple are identifiable. The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved and those events happen at the 7th trump, the last of the events. So if the seals were in order, it would have been 7th matching the 7th trump. The "first" seal IMO is the false Christ 2which is something that happens in the 6th trump. This is why I say the seals are not in chronological order. I am not sure on the order of the rest but my belief is the seals speak of trumpet events, with each seal representing events of one of the trumps. If you look at the text, 5teh first seal is not called "1" or "first".....just he opens "one of the seals" but we have to deduce which one he opened. I think he started with seal number 6 representing the 6th trump when the false christ comes to conquer the saints.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

LOL. What a load of nonsense. All of the other seals (second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh) are referenced as to which seals they are, so it doesn't take much thought to understand that seal that was "one of the seals" that the Lamb opened was the first seal. Also, the fact that it was the first seal He opened should clue you in to that as well. This is the kind of nonsense that happens when someone wants to make scripture say what he wants it to say.