Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[WPM]

You sound like a Calvinist. Because you are. I don't want to continue this convo here, bro. We can talk about this more privately if you want.


You know that these kinds of comments mean nothing to me just like these kinds of comments mean nothing to me if anyone else makes them.


Calvinism is unbiblical. Just as unbiblical as Premillennialism. God offers salvation to all people and makes people responsible to accept His offer. That is taught repeatedly in scripture. But, you believe He gives it to some and withholds it from the rest and offers it to no one.


Why do you think that man has no responsibility? That is taught REPEATEDLY in scripture.

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Do you think we should just ignore passages like this? I don't get it, bro. We agree on end times doctrine as much as any two people here do, but we're far apart on this topic.

I am a Bible believing Christian. I am a follower of Christ. I'm not a follower of Calvin.

When have i ever said that man has no responsibility? That is ridiculous. Why would you go there? You know it is not true. We exercise faith in response to the Word of God. But it is a gift from God, not a human quality. We live a life pleasing unto God because we currently possess the eternal Spirit. The damnable error of Arminism gives man no hope. This discussion highlights it. Sadly, you have no solid hope (with your doctrine) that you will make it. In your theology you believe you could still end up in hell. How sad! Those who believe what I do do have a permanent hope. PTL. Their hope is solely in Christ. They possess eternal life now as the Bible teaches. You were totally unable to refute that.

We believe that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. You obviously do not. Sad!

I find great comfort in the promises of God. The challenge for me like you is this: will I take a hold of them? Will I believe them? Will I apply them to my life or my current trial? The answer has to be yes, yes and yes.

Philippians 1:6 says, “he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

If He has started the work, then guess what? He will finish the work. Do you believe it Church? Please know how long he will perform it here: “until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Remember Hebrews 12:2 tells us that Jesus is not just “the author of our faith” but also that the “finisher of our faith.”

2 Timothy 1:12 puts it well: "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Can you see the continual focus in this Book upon God’s ability to keep you? But for how long? What is “that day” he is speaking of?

It is the glorious impending return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 tells us that we are “waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Here it is again, it very clearly says that God will keep you to the very end. Why do so many Christians live in fear of losing their salvation? I put it to you the reason is: they have a wrong perception of God and an ignorance of his promises. They possess a God that is not trustworthy. They possess a God that does not keep His word.

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

There we go again!

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Ephesians 1:13 declares, “after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

The Holy Spirit is here described as “that Holy Spirit of promise.”

The word “earnest” here relates to a security down payment. It is taken from the Greek word arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn’), which is from a Hebrew origin [meaning a pledge in advance as security for the rest.

You have heard of earnest money. It is a portion of something, given or done in advance as a promise of the remainder.

The WordWeb dictionary defines the noun "earnest" as: “Something of value given by one person to another to bind a contract.”

I like assurance. I like security. I like the promises of God. I choose to receive them, how about you?

Jesus said in Matthew 28:20, “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.”

Jesus says He is with you for the duration! And all God’s people said?

When you know this, you can walk by faith in the constant assurance that God is with you.

One of my favorite verses when questions arise is Hebrews 13:5. It has a wonderful promise for the believer from God, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”

You have previously promoted the ridiculous idea that that spiritually dead men can somehow respond to God outside of the regenerating work of the Spirit. Well, that can never happen. That is is why i will never accept this error.

It is a man-centered gospel. It has no hope. It is no assurance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am a Bible believing Christian. I am a follower of Christ. I'm not a follower of Calvin.

I'm not a follower of Arminius, either, but you called me an Arminian. You agree with doctrines taught by Calvin, so that makes you a Calvinist. It doesn't mean you are not a Christian and follower of Christ. Labels are just used to help give an idea of what people believe without having to explain it all the time.

When have i ever said that man has no responsibility? That is ridiculous. Why would you go there?

I'm talking about no responsibility in salvation, not responsibility in general. I go there because it's true about Calvinists. That doctrine teaches that man has no responsibility to make a choice to repent or believe and instead the choice is entirely up to God. Do you agree with that or not?

You know it is not true. We exercise faith in response to the Word of God. But it is a gift from God, not a human quality.

How is that our responsibility when it's something God causes us to do? Do you believe we could have chosen to reject His gift?

We live a life pleasing unto God because we currently posse the eternal Spirit. The damnable error of Arminism gives man no hope.

Nonsense. I don't even know exactly everything that Arminianism teaches and don't really care, but in my view man is responsibile to humble himself and acknowledge that he can't save himself and put his entire hope in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for salvation. Don't tell me that isn't hope! That hope is what keeps me going every day!

This discussion highlights it. Sadly, you have no solid hope (with your doctrine) that you will make it.

Ridiculous! You talk about me not going there? My hope is in Christ alone. How is that not solid hope? You must be arguing with a straw man here.

In your theology you believe you could still end up in hell. How sad! Calvinists do have a permanent hope. PTL. Their hope is solely in Christ.

So is mine! You don't even understand what I believe, so you shouldn't try to comment on it. You know what Arminians believe, whatever that is, but you need to address what I believe.

They possess eternal life now as the Bible teaches. You were totally unable to refute that.

You referred to the second death and were contrasting that with eternal life. Has anyone experienced the second death yet? No. We will inherit eternal life when Jesus comes and unbelievers will experience the second death at that time (Matthew 25:31-46).

We believe that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. You obviously do not. Sad!

I do believe that, but that is not the whole story! How sad that you ignore the other part of the story which is this...

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Calvinism makes warnings like this about examining our hearts, encouraging each other in the faith and holding "the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" meaningless and pointless and something we can just ignore because we have no responsibility to use free will to choose to do those things or not.

I find great comfort in the promises of God.

And I don't? Goodness sakes. You are making an argument like a dispensationalist here like how they act as if some of God's promises are only for certain believers (Israelites) and not for others (Gentiles).

The challenge for me like you is this: will I take a hold of them? Will I believe them? Will I apply them to my life or my current trial? The answer has to be yes, yes and yes.

And that is just automatic? Are human beings no different than robots in that sense?

Philippians 1:6 says, “he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

You can't interpret verses in isolation like this and draw conclusions from it without looking at other scripture which says "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14). You don't like it that I say your doctrine ignores man's responsibility, but what exactly do you think man is responsible to do in terms of making any choices that are not predetermined by God?

If He has started the work, then guess what? He will finish the work. Do you believe it Church? Please know how long he will perform it here: “until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Remember Hebrews 12:2 tells us that Jesus is not just “the author of our faith” but also that the “finisher of our faith.”

This is one of the many verses that Calvinism misinterprets. That is referring to the Christian faith in general and not to our personal faith in Christ. He started the Christian faith by dying on the cross and rising from the dead and He will finish it when He comes at the end of the age when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

2 Timothy 1:12 puts it well: "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Can you see the continual focus in this Book upon God’s ability to keep you? But for how long? What is “that day” he is speaking of?

And man has no responsibility to cooperate with God? Why do you only tell half of the story?

There we go again!

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

This is the problem with Calvinism. Always only looking at part of scripture. You look at the part that says we are sealed unto the day of redemption and apparently miss the part that tells us to not grieve the Holy Spirit. Do you believe we can grieve the Holy Spirit? Paul clearly believed so.

I like assurance. I like security. I like the promises of God. I choose to receive them, how about you?

You "choose" to receive them? Do you understand that a choice implies that you had more than one option to choose from and you could have chosen either of the options? Why do you think you could not have chosen not to receive them? Isn't that why people get punished by God, because they choose not to receive His promises that He makes to anyone who believes? Why else are they punished?

One of my favorite verses when questions arise is Hebrews 13:5. It has a wonderful promise for the believer from God, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”

Again, you only look at part of the story. Yes, He will never leave or forsake us, but where does scripture teach that we can't leave or forsake Him? What is the point of passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 if we can't leave or forsake Him?

You have previously promoted the ridiculous idea that that spiritually dead men can somehow respond to God outside of the regenerating work of the Spirit. Well, that can never happen. That is is why i will never accept this error.

It's not ridiculous at all. It's ridiculous to think that being dead in sins means you can't have any consciousness of your sins. Even bodily death does not mean no consciousness. It's a separation of the body from the soul and spirit. You misunderstand what it means to be dead in sins. It simply means someone is separated from a relationship with God because of sin.

Jesus said that sinners, those who are dead in sins, are sick and in need of of a doctor and He calls them to repentance.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus, the Great Physician, calls sinners who are dead in sins (separated from God) and spiritually sick to repentance! This destroys Calvinism which says that sinners who are dead in sins are not capable of responding to a call to repentance while they are dead in sins! Jesus knew otherwise! He calls ALL sinners to repentance for all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that's why He died for all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). All people are responsible to choose to answer His call to repentance or not.

Calvinism is rightly concerned with people thinking they can boast of their salvation. I share that concern. But, repentance is the opposite of boasting! It is the admission that one is a sinner who can't save himself or herself and is relying on Jesus completely for forgiveness and salvation.

 

[WPM]

I'm not a follower of Arminius, either, but you called me an Arminian. You agree with doctrines taught by Calvin, so that makes you a Calvinist. It doesn't mean you are not a Christian and follower of Christ. Labels are just used to help give an idea of what people believe without having to explain it all the time.


I'm talking about no responsibility in salvation, not responsibility in general. I go there because it's true about Calvinists. That doctrine teaches that man has no responsibility to make a choice to repent or believe and instead the choice is entirely up to God. Do you agree with that or not?


How is that our responsibility when it's something God causes us to do? Do you believe we could have chosen to reject His gift?


Nonsense. I don't even know exactly everything that Arminianism teaches and don't really care, but in my view man is responsibile to humble himself and acknowledge that he can't save himself and put his entire hope in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for salvation. Don't tell me that isn't hope! That hope is what keeps me going every day!


Ridiculous! You talk about me not going there? My hope is in Christ alone. How is that not solid hope? You must be arguing with a straw man here.


So is mine! You don't even understand what I believe, so you shouldn't try to comment on it. You know what Arminians believe, whatever that is, but you need to address what I believe.


You referred to the second death and were contrasting that with eternal life. Has anyone experienced the second death yet? No. We will inherit eternal life when Jesus comes and unbelievers will experience the second death at that time (Matthew 25:31-46).


I do believe that, but that is not the whole story! How sad that you ignore the other part of the story which is this...

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Calvinism makes warnings like this about examining our hearts, encouraging each other in the faith and holding "the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" meaningless and pointless and something we can just ignore because we have no responsibility to use free will to choose to do those things or not.


And I don't? Goodness sakes. You are making an argument like a dispensationalist here like how they act as if some of God's promises are only for certain believers (Israelites) and not for others (Gentiles).


And that is just automatic? Are human beings no different than robots in that sense?


You can't interpret verses in isolation like this and draw conclusions from it without looking at other scripture which says "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14). You don't like it that I say your doctrine ignores man's responsibility, but what exactly do you think man is responsible to do in terms of making any choices that are not predetermined by God?


This is one of the many verses that Calvinism misinterprets. That is referring to the Christian faith in general and not to our personal faith in Christ. He started the Christian faith by dying on the cross and rising from the dead and He will finish it when He comes at the end of the age when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


And man has no responsibility to cooperate with God? Why do you only tell half of the story?


This is the problem with Calvinism. Always only looking at part of scripture. You look at the part that says we are sealed unto the day of redemption and apparently miss the part that tells us to not grieve the Holy Spirit. Do you believe we can grieve the Holy Spirit? Paul clearly believed so.


You "choose" to receive them? Do you understand that a choice implies that you had more than one option to choose from and you could have chosen either of the options? Why do you think you could not have chosen not to receive them? Isn't that why people get punished by God, because they choose not to receive His promises that He makes to anyone who believes? Why else are they punished?


Again, you only look at part of the story. Yes, He will never leave or forsake us, but where does scripture teach that we can't leave or forsake Him? What is the point of passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 if we can't leave or forsake Him?


It's not ridiculous at all. It's ridiculous to think that being dead in sins means you can't have any consciousness of your sins. Even bodily death does not mean no consciousness. It's a separation of the body from the soul and spirit. You misunderstand what it means to be dead in sins. It simply means someone is separated from a relationship with God because of sin.

Jesus said that sinners, those who are dead in sins, are sick and in need of of a doctor and He calls them to repentance.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus, the Great Physician, calls sinners who are dead in sins (separated from God) and spiritually sick to repentance! This destroys Calvinism which says that sinners who are dead in sins are not capable of responding to a call to repentance while they are dead in sins! Jesus knew otherwise! He calls ALL sinners to repentance for all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that's why He died for all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). All people are responsible to choose to answer His call to repentance or not.

Calvinism is rightly concerned with people thinking they can boast of their salvation. I share that concern. But, repentance is the opposite of boasting! It is the admission that one is a sinner who can't save himself or herself and is relying on Jesus completely for forgiveness and salvation.

Calvinists believe in faith, repentance and good works that attend salvation, and thereafter. But this all comes through the inner workings of the Holy Spirit. The main difference between these 2 doctrines is the man-centered focus (and dependence) that Arminists have. It is delusional. It is a misrepresentation of the Book. They also have an unfaithful God who does not keep His promises.

The doctrines of grace give God all the glory. They have a big God who is in sovereign control. They have a faithful God who does not turn His back on His children. He also keeps His Word. He never leaves or forsakes. Arminianism does not have this. Man calls the shots. Man decides. Man comes to God. Man keeps himself. Man can also leave God at any time.

I showed you multiple passages that prove we enjoy eternal life in the-here-and-now. You rejected that. It's not a present reality to you. It is a future hope. That is false teaching. It should be rejected by all Bible-believing Christians. Eternal life is to know Jesus now. I showed you that and you avoided that.

You started off on this thread lauding the reality of the permanence of the Spirit, albeit wrongly locating the giving of that to Pentecost. You then quickly backtracked to facilitate your Arminist teaching. I still do not know when you think the Spirit was given. You have presented so many different arguments. Was it in the OT, was it when Jesus breathed on the disciples, was it at Pentecost or will it be the second coming?

 

[WPM]

Jesus, the Great Physician, calls sinners who are dead in sins (separated from God) and spiritually sick to repentance! This destroys Calvinism which says that sinners who are dead in sins are not capable of responding to a call to repentance while they are dead in sins! Jesus knew otherwise! He calls ALL sinners to repentance for all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that's why He died for all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). All people are responsible to choose to answer His call to repentance or not.

Only with God's help and intervention.

The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah confirms man’s awful predicament in Jeremiah 13:23: “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.”

Can a black Ethiopian change his skin? Does he have the ability to change the color of his skin? Can the leopard change the variety of his spots? Of course not! These things are natural to them, and they cannot be altered. So is sin and rebellion to the natural man. These things are natural to him, and cannot be altered with natural ingenuity. You have as much chance of changing your own nature as the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard his spots.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Death has been defeated.

Not true. People still die.

The grave is empty.

Only one is empty.

Abraham’s bosom is empty.

Who can know that?

It will receive its final destruction

This is a contradictory statement. Either death is defeated or it isn't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here's the question:

What does Amos 9:9 have to do with the Second Advent?

I already answered that.

 

[covenantee]

I already answered that.

I must have missed it. What is the post number?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Calvinists believe in faith, repentance and good works that attend salvation, and thereafter.

Of course.

But this all comes through the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. However, we are responsible to submit to the Holy Spirit rather than resist Him like the unbelieving Jews that Stephen rebuked.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

The main difference between these 2 doctrines is the man-centered focus (and dependence) that Arminists have. It is delusional. It is a misrepresentation of the Book. They also have an unfaithful God who does not keep His promises.

Then I am not an Arminist (aren't they called Arminians?) because my doctrine is God focused and believes that God always keeps His promises. Believing that we are responsible to willingly acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and that only Jesus can save us, as I do, is not a man-centered focus. What you are refuting and what I believe are not the same thing and I don't know why you don't get that. This is similar to how preterists and futurists don't acknowledge the existence of historicists and idealists. It's ridiculous. Don't be like that. You are refuting the idea that we can be saved by our good works and our own righteousness. I refute that, also! But, you are not even giving me a chance here because you are assuming that I believe the same thing as your Arminist straw man.

The doctrines of grace give God all the glory.

As does my doctrine. If I believe someone must willingly choose to acknowledge that God deserves all the glory for sending His Son to do what man could not do for himself, is that a case of giving God the glory or giving man the glory?

They have a big God who is in sovereign control.

They have a big insecure God who thinks He must control everyone like robots in order for any of them to do what He wants and He can't trust them to decide for themselves who to serve. Joshua was definitely not a a Calvinist.

Joshua 24:14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

I believe in a God who is in sovereign control in the sense that He has authority over all things and that nothing can happen without Him allowing it to happen. But, He allows people to choose who they will serve. To choose whether to submit to Him and acknowledge that they are lost without Him and what His Son did for them or not.

They have a faithful God who does not turn His back on His children.

So do I. But, my God does not force anyone to stay faithful to Him.

He also keeps His Word.

Of course He does. Every time.

He never leaves or forsakes. Arminianism does not have this.

Then I am not an Arminian because in my view it is not God who ever leaves or forsakes anyone, it is man who sometimes leaves or forsakes God. Otherwise, what is this passage all about? Can you tell me how you interpret passages like this one...

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If it's impossible for a believer to depart from the living God then why does this passage warn believers about being careful to not do that?

Man calls the shots. Man decides. Man comes to God. Man keeps himself. Man can also leave God at any time.

You are arguing with a straw man here, not with me. God calls the shots, including the shot that says man must respond to the gospel call to salvation and must respond to His call to repent.

I showed you multiple passages that prove we enjoy eternal life in the-here-and-now. You rejected that. It's not a present reality to you. It is a future hope.

I showed you passages that warn believers about their need to keep their faith until the end. You reject that. I assume, anyway. So far, you haven't even addressed them. Why do you get upset that I say you ignore man's responsibility when you never speak of it? What exactly is man responsible to do in terms of making any willful choices in response to God's commands?

That is false teaching. It should be rejected by all Bible-believing Christians. Eternal life is to know Jesus now. I showed you that and you avoided that.

I avoided nothing. I am showing you the part of the story that you are avoiding. You are not telling the whole story.

You started off on this thread lauding the reality of the permanence of the Spirit, albeit wrongly locating the giving of that to Pentecost. You then quickly backtracked to facilitate your Arminist teaching. I still do not know when you think the Spirit was given. You have presented so many different arguments. Was it in the OT, was it when Jesus breathed on the disciples, was it at Pentecost or will it be the second coming?

I have not presented "so many different arguments". I already clarified that I was thinking of the 3,000 people who were saved on Pentecost and not thinking about how Jesus had already told the disciples to receive His Spirit before that. I am saying that no one ever received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit before the disciples did.

Do you not believe, as Calvinism teaches, that regeneration precedes faith? Why was that not the case for the disciples? They clearly had faith well before they received the Holy Spirit. Please address my points instead of continually making straw man arguments.

 

[covenantee]

Paul never says we are under any covenant

Do you know what a link is?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only with God's help and intervention.

Of course! Did I say otherwise? No, I did not. You're not addressing what I believe, you are addressing what your straw man Arminian believes.

God initiates everything. He has the gospel preached to people. He speaks to people's hearts through His Spirit. But, man is required to respond. Do you think that God did not want the unbelieving Jews who Stephen rebuked to be saved? Scripture says He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and that Jesus died for the sins of all people in the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). How do you reconcile these verses with Calvinism?

God wants all people to repent and to be saved, including the unbelieving Jews that Stephen rebuked, but they resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). They resisted His call to repentance. You can't say that God didn't want them to repent because He commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). You can't say that He didn't do anythng to help them do so or else it couldn't be said that they resisted the Holy Spirit.

The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah confirms man’s awful predicament in Jeremiah 13:23: “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.”

Can a black Ethiopian change his skin? Does he have the ability to change the color of his skin? Can the leopard change the variety of his spots? Of course not!

That's right! I agree with this 100%. But, you think I don't. You don't even know who you're talking to here. Talk to me and address my beliefs instead of your straw man's beliefs. What God makes man responsible to do is acknowledge that he is a sinner who cannot change himself and save himself and that only God can do that! That's what I believe! Address what I believe instead of what your straw man believes.

These things are natural to them, and they cannot be altered. So is sin and rebellion to the natural man. These things are natural to him, and cannot be altered with natural ingenuity. You have as much chance of changing your own nature as the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard his spots.

I agree. But, nowhere does it say that sinners cannot recognize that they are such and that they need to repent of their sins. Jesus said sinners are sick and in need of a doctor and He calls them to repentance. Can a sick person not recognize their sickness and acknowledge their need for a doctor? Of course they can, right? That's why Jesus said sinners are sick and calls them to repentance. He does not call just certain people to repentance. He calls sinners to repentance and all people are sinners (Romans 3:23).

 

[WPM]

Of course! Did I say otherwise? No, I did not. You're not addressing what I believe, you are addressing what your straw man Arminian believes.

God initiates everything. He has the gospel preached to people. He speaks to people's hearts through His Spirit. But, man is required to respond. Do you think that God did not want the unbelieving Jews who Stephen rebuked to be saved? Scripture says He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and that Jesus died for the sins of all people in the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). How do you reconcile these verses with Calvinism?

God wants all people to repent and to be saved, including the unbelieving Jews that Stephen rebuked, but they resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). They resisted His call to repentance. You can't say that God didn't want them to repent because He commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). You can't say that He didn't do anythng to help them do so or else it couldn't be said that they resisted the Holy Spirit.


That's right! I agree with this 100%. But, you think I don't. You don't even know who you're talking to here. Talk to me and address my beliefs instead of your straw man's beliefs. What God makes man responsible to do is acknowledge that he is a sinner who cannot change himself and save himself and that only God can do that! That's what I believe! Address what I believe instead of what your straw man believes.


I agree. But, nowhere does it say that sinners cannot recognize that they are such and that they need to repent of their sins. Jesus said sinners are sick and in need of a doctor and He calls them to repentance. Can a sick person not recognize their sickness and acknowledge their need for a doctor? Of course they can, right? That's why Jesus said sinners are sick and calls them to repentance. He does not call just certain people to repentance. He calls sinners to repentance and all people are sinners (Romans 3:23).

Only with the aid of the Holy Spirit. A dead man cannot respond. He cannot change himself.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He teaches that they are bodily asleep/dead.

When Jesus states, "She is not dead, she is asleep," he is intentionally highlighting a profound distinction between the two states of being. This phrasing suggests that death is not the finality it often seems to be, but rather a temporary pause. Similarly, when the Apostle Paul refers to the followers of Jesus who are "asleep," he adopts this very same terminology, implying a shared understanding of death as a state that is not to be feared, but rather a transition with the promise of awakening.

Paul describes the process from his standpoint on the ground. The person in the grave rises from the dead to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, we conclude that the person never leaves the grave, rising from where he or she was buried.

Scripture like Luke 16:19-31

Jesus is teaching a moral lesson through the use of a parable. The events aren't real.

Revelation 6:9-11 make it quite clear that those who are physically dead are still conscious.

The souls have no mouth, so they don't literally cry out. John is speaking metaphorically/poetically about death and protestation. For example, God speaks metaphorically about the death of Abel, saying "What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground."

That phrase comes from the Bible, specifically Genesis 4:10. It's what God says to Cain after he has killed his brother, Abel. The imagery is powerful—it's saying that Abel’s blood is calling out for justice, almost as if the ground itself refuses to be silent about the crime. It conveys the deep moral and spiritual gravity of Cain’s actions and the idea that wrongdoing doesn’t go unnoticed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only with the aid of the Holy Spirit. A dead man cannot respond. He cannot change himself.

Right. I didn't say otherwise. But, the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Do you not believe that regeneration precedes faith? Why did regeneration come after faith in the case of the disciples?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Jesus states, "She is not dead, she is asleep," he is intentionally highlighting a profound distinction between the two states of being. This phrasing suggests that death is not the finality it often seems to be, but rather a temporary pause. Similarly, when the Apostle Paul refers to the followers of Jesus who are "asleep," he adopts this very same terminology, implying a shared understanding of death as a state that is not to be feared, but rather a transition with the promise of awakening.

Paul describes the process from his standpoint on the ground. The person in the grave rises from the dead to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, we conclude that the person never leaves the grave, rising from where he or she was buried.

Paul said that to be absent from the body (bodily dead) is to be present with the Lord and he said being present with the Lord is much better than being in the body (2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:20-24). With that being the case, why do you believe that being bodily dead is worse than being alive? Why don't you agree with Paul that being absent from the body means you are then present with the Lord which is far better than being in the body and absent from the Lord?

Jesus is teaching a moral lesson through the use of a parable. The events aren't real.

Nonsense! So, you don't believe in a real place called hell? You don't believe that Abraham and Moses are real people? Why does Jesus give the detail that the rich man had 5 brothers if He was just "teaching a moral lesson"? How does it aid his moral lesson to mention how many brothers the rich man had?

The souls have no mouth, so they don't literally cry out. John is speaking metaphorically/poetically about death and protestation.

Yes, I agree, but the fact is that they are portrayed as being conscious and not asleep. Why would they be portrayed that way if they are not actually conscious? Especially if you consider that Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord with that being far better than remaining in the body and being absent from the Lord's presence in heaven. How could it be far better to be sleeping in heaven than to be alive in the body?

 

[WPM]

Of course.


I agree. However, we are responsible to submit to the Holy Spirit rather than resist Him like the unbelieving Jews that Stephen rebuked.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!


Then I am not an Arminist (aren't they called Arminians?) because my doctrine is God focused and believes that God always keeps His promises. Believing that we are responsible to willingly acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and that only Jesus can save us, as I do, is not a man-centered focus. What you are refuting and what I believe are not the same thing and I don't know why you don't get that. This is similar to how preterists and futurists don't acknowledge the existence of historicists and idealists. It's ridiculous. Don't be like that. You are refuting the idea that we can be saved by our good works and our own righteousness. I refute that, also! But, you are not even giving me a chance here because you are assuming that I believe the same thing as your Arminist straw man.


As does my doctrine. If I believe someone must willingly choose to acknowledge that God deserves all the glory for sending His Son to do what man could not do for himself, is that a case of giving God the glory or giving man the glory?


They have a big insecure God who thinks He must control everyone like robots in order for any of them to do what He wants and He can't trust them to decide for themselves who to serve. Joshua was definitely not a a Calvinist.

Joshua 24:14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

I believe in a God who is in sovereign control in the sense that He has authority over all things and that nothing can happen without Him allowing it to happen. But, He allows people to choose who they will serve. To choose whether to submit to Him and acknowledge that they are lost without Him and what His Son did for them or not.


So do I. But, my God does not force anyone to stay faithful to Him.


Of course He does. Every time.


Then I am not an Arminian because in my view it is not God who ever leaves or forsakes anyone, it is man who sometimes leaves or forsakes God. Otherwise, what is this passage all about? Can you tell me how you interpret passages like this one...

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If it's impossible for a believer to depart from the living God then why does this passage warn believers about being careful to not do that?


You are arguing with a straw man here, not with me. God calls the shots, including the shot that says man must respond to the gospel call to salvation and must respond to His call to repent.


I showed you passages that warn believers about their need to keep their faith until the end. You reject that. I assume, anyway. So far, you haven't even addressed them. Why do you get upset that I say you ignore man's responsibility when you never speak of it? What exactly is man responsible to do in terms of making any willful choices in response to God's commands?


I avoided nothing. I am showing you the part of the story that you are avoiding. You are not telling the whole story.


I have not presented "so many different arguments". I already clarified that I was thinking of the 3,000 people who were saved on Pentecost and not thinking about how Jesus had already told the disciples to receive His Spirit before that. I am saying that no one ever received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit before the disciples did.

Do you not believe, as Calvinism teaches, that regeneration precedes faith? Why was that not the case for the disciples? They clearly had faith well before they received the Holy Spirit. Please address my points instead of continually making straw man arguments.

Ok, then. If you have a true understanding of this Book and the God of this Book then you will know that God’s attitude is not 3 strikes and you are

If you have a true revelation of your own personal weaknesses and failings then you will know that God’s attitude is not 3 strikes and you are

Jesus said in John 17:9-10, in His great intercessory prayer, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.”

Firstly, there are two people in view here (1) the elect (2) the wicked. The one He prays for the other He ignores.
John 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me ...
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
God pursues and finds every sheep that belong to Him. He looses none.

Jesus also said in Luke 15:4-7 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

This is the heart of God. A God that cares. A God of compassion for those that wander.

Jesus says in John 10:4-5, "the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

Jesus confirms this in John 10:26-29, rebuking the false professors, "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

• Is your confidence built upon Him, His Word and what He has done for you or is it built upon you, what you have done for Him, and your ability to save yourself?
• Who keeps us, God or ourselves?
• Is it your grip on Him that you are putting your hope in or His grip on you?

The reality is:

Proverbs 24:16: "For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief."

Psalm 63:8: "My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me."

Psalm 145:14: "The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down."

Micah 7:8: "when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me."

Psalm 37:23-26

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

2 Corinthians 4:8-9: "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed."

 

[WPM]

Right. I didn't say otherwise. But, the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Do you not believe that regeneration precedes faith? Why did regeneration come after faith in the case of the disciples?

We can all grieve, quench and resist the Holy Spirit. But that is not the end of the story. That is where conviction and chastisement kick in.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, then. If you have a true understanding of this Book and the God of this Book then you will know that God’s attitude is not 3 strikes and you are

If you have a true revelation of your own personal weaknesses and failings then you will know that God’s attitude is not 3 strikes and you are

Jesus said in John 17:9-10, in His great intercessory prayer, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.”

Firstly, there are two people in view here (1) the elect (2) the wicked. The one He prays for the other He ignores.
John 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me ...
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
God pursues and finds every sheep that belong to Him. He looses none.

Jesus also said in Luke 15:4-7 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

This is the heart of God. A God that cares. A God of compassion for those that wander.

Jesus says in John 10:4-5, "the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

Jesus confirms this in John 10:26-29, rebuking the false professors, "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

• Is your confidence built upon Him, His Word and what He has done for you or is it built upon you, what you have done for Him, and your ability to save yourself?
• Who keeps us, God or ourselves?
• Is it your grip on Him that you are putting your hope in or His grip on you?

The reality is:

Proverbs 24:16: "For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief."

Psalm 63:8: "My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me."

Psalm 145:14: "The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down."

Micah 7:8: "when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me."

Psalm 37:23-26

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

2 Corinthians 4:8-9: "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed."

Can you address my points first? You avoided addressing any of my points in that post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We can all grieve, quench and resist the Holy Spirit. But that is not the end of the story. That is where conviction and chastisement kick in.

I didn't say that's the end of the story. It's an ongoing spiritual battle for our souls. Calvinism does not see that. Are we not able to grieve, quench and resist the conviction and chastisement of the Spirit? I think you do not understand what the unbelieving Jews who Stephen rebuked were resisting. They were resisting the call to repentance that God makes to all people (Acts 17:30). Jesus called sinners, who He said were sick and in need of a doctor, to repentance. Who are sinners? All people, right? Because all have sinned (Romans 3:23). What person does God not want to repent and to be saved? Not one. He wants all people to repent and to be saved, according to scripture (Acts 17:30, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). Do you believe that?

 

[WPM]

Can you address my points first? You avoided addressing any of my points in that post.

I addressed several of your major points there. What did i miss?

I am preaching tonight. I am distracted a bit.

 

[WPM]

I didn't say that's the end of the story. It's an ongoing spiritual battle for our souls. Calvinism does not see that. Are we not able to grieve, quench and resist the conviction and chastisement of the Spirit? I think you do not understand what the unbelieving Jews who Stephen rebuked were resisting. They were resisting the call to repentance that God makes to all people (Acts 17:30). Jesus called sinners, who He said were sick and in need of a doctor, to repentance. Who are sinners? All people, right? Because all have sinned (Romans 3:23). What person does God not want to repent and to be saved? Not one. He wants all people to repent and to be saved, according to scripture (Acts 17:30, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). Do you believe that?

It is not true that Calvinism does not see that it's an ongoing spiritual battle for our souls. Where do you get that from? Who told you that? Why do you have to keep misrepresenting? That is a major sign of weakness in your argument.

The damned can also grieve, quench and resist the conviction and chastisement of the Spirit.

Men are without excuse. They willfully reject being rescued because that is their nature. They reject His offer of salvation because that is their nature.

• The outward call is to the whosoever – “many are called.”
• The internal call (effectual call) – “few are chosen.”