CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The Bible doesn't say that God "mandated" the composition of Israel. He chose Israel to be his people.
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
If we agree on one point or another, it doesn't follow that we agree on every point. You don't believe in the Biblical view of the Second Advent and I don't agree with you on that issue.
Acts 2 tells us where Christ went the day He died. Christ being fully God and man, experienced the same death all men did.
He would have gone to where the righteous dead who died were in Hades. He would have met with Abraham and all the other OT saints of God. No one has ascended into Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, that is the Son of Man who is in Heaven. So, no OT saint when they died went into Heaven, as they could not be perfected until Christ came and have eternal life in Heaven with God.
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
He would have gone to where the righteous dead who died were in Hades. He would have met with Abraham and all the other OT saints of God. No one has ascended into Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, that is the Son of Man who is in Heaven. So, no OT saint when they died went into Heaven, as they could not be perfected until Christ came and have eternal life in Heaven with God.
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The fact that God slew them didn't mean they weren't holy. They were "holy" because God set them aside to serve him.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Not bodily, but spiritually. He committed His Spirit immediately to his father upon death. There's nowhere in Scripture that describes Abraham's bosom as paradise. After the Fall, it is always the third heaven.
He descended into Hades and emptied it. This was part of the victory of paying for our sin. The penalty had been paid.
You are denying the First Advent. Jesus has come. He has already redeemed His elect. He has delivered them from their sin, from death, from the grip of Satan and from eternal punishment. He is already given them eternal life. They shall never perish.
You are trying to rewrite history. This is another heresy to add to your denial of the deity of Christ.
It is the whole reason Christ came and died, so that people would not perish but have an eternal life in Heaven with God.
To perish meant to die and go to hades, hell, etc.. it was never heaven where anyone went before Christ came and died.
For more complete relevance this here
John 3
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
To perish meant to die and go to hades, hell, etc.. it was never heaven where anyone went before Christ came and died.
For more complete relevance this here
John 3
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
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AND the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells us what Abraham's bosom was like. It was not heaven, and it was not fully hell.
But they were all together with a wide divide of separation. And they could even talk to each side.
Sorry but this cannot be heaven, but it is the place where all OT saints went at death
Luke 16
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
But they were all together with a wide divide of separation. And they could even talk to each side.
Sorry but this cannot be heaven, but it is the place where all OT saints went at death
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
Exactly. But after His death all this changed. The cross was a victory. Christ defeated Satan there. He made a show openly of principalities and powers. The grave could not hold Him. Hades had nothing on Him. That is why He descended into it in Spirit and emptied it.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree. Paul is not teaching that every single Jew in the future will put their trust in Jesus Christ.
I disagree. The partial hardening is corporate, and so is the salvation.
When Paul speaks of individuals, he uses the term "Jew" and "Greek". For example,
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
When Paul speaks about his nation, he uses the term "Israel." Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in . . .
Yes. And He explicitly permitted, i.e. mandated, Gentiles to also be His People.
Read the definition.
And it was more than permitted. It was commanded.
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I agree it is empty now, but the scripture says His soul would not be left in Hades
AND Paul says this Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
****************
that He might fill all things gives you the clue that well, HE DID go to Hades and preach to imprisoned spirits.
Paul's point is He went to every part of the creation, hell, hades, heaven Christ went everywhere. He descended to the lowest hell and ascended to the highest Heaven.
The captivity were the OT saints in hades, a part of which was Abraham's Bosom, (Paradise)
1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
You keep saying this. But can you show me any actual Scripture that teaches that Abraham's Bosom was Paradise? Personal opinion means nothing.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I have not denied Jesus' first Advent. You don't understand what an "Advent" is. An "Advent" is an official visit by a king to a city during which time there is a celebration, and often there is a parade of the victor's captives.
Jesus' First Advent occurred during a significant period leading up to his death, burial, and resurrection. This pivotal moment in history took place as Jesus made his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, a city steeped in religious and cultural importance. Riding on a donkey, a gesture that fulfilled biblical prophecy and symbolized peace, he was received by crowds of enthusiastic followers. They laid down palm branches and shouted praises, recognizing him as the long-awaited Messiah. This event marked the beginning of the final chapter of his earthly ministry, setting the stage for the profound events that would soon follow, including his subsequent crucifixion and resurrection.
Jesus' Second Advent will witness his triumphant entry into Jerusalem sitting on a white horse to deliver his people from their enemies and establish the Millennial kingdom on earth.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
1 Peter 3:18-20 declares, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
Some imagine that Christ descended into hell for three days and preached the Gospel to the wicked of Noah's day. The Bible doesn’t say that. I think it is simply saying that God spoke to those who were “disobedient” (or imprisoned spiritually) through Noah when he was building the ark. Anyway, we don’t need to speculate as to its fulfilment, it is in the text. It is expressly occurred in: “the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.” Not only was Noah a righteous witness, he was also a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:6).
- This is not talking about hell. Hell is not mentioned.
- There is no mentioned of a 2nd chance. There never has been or ever will be.
- I believe it is talking about Christ speaking to the wicked by "the Spirit" through His servant Noah back thousands of years ago.
- The wicked are continually portrayed as being in a spiritual prison. This is what I believe it is saying.
- The result of the preaching in question is mentioned here – 8 converts. This is telling us that Noah and his family were the only response to the Gospel message “in the days of Noah.”
1 Peter 4:5-6 declares, "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." This links with the previous reading.
This is simply telling us that the Gospel had previously been preached to them that are now dead. It’s not saying that the Gospel was preached to them while they were dead. Nowhere does Scripture teach that people get a second chance at salvation after they die. Quite the opposite. That is a distortion of what these texts are teaching. It was preached to them when they were still alive.
Some imagine that Christ descended into hell for three days and preached the Gospel to the wicked of Noah's day. The Bible doesn’t say that. I think it is simply saying that God spoke to those who were “disobedient” (or imprisoned spiritually) through Noah when he was building the ark. Anyway, we don’t need to speculate as to its fulfilment, it is in the text. It is expressly occurred in: “the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.” Not only was Noah a righteous witness, he was also a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:6).
Firstly, nowhere else in the Word does it say that the dead have a second chance. Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”
Secondly, this text is saying that Christ spoke to the wicked in Noah’s day by way of “the Spirit.” Anyway, we don’t need to speculate as to its fulfilment, it is in the text. It is expressly occurred: “in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.”
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