Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Doug]

Did you not read my post? I showed verses from other parts of scripture identifying 3 of them as actual churches that existed in the first century. I also give you a link that gives historical information on all 7 churches.


What?!

I did read it....thats why I say ok there were churches in these locations in other passages but that does not mean John was writing at that time to them but to future churches who would read it going into the tribulation
I am not saying any thing more than these churches cant be absolutely identified

 

[rwb]

Explain what?

How can ethnic Jews of Old be the remnant called the priesthood of God since they died in unbelief? The priesthood of Old was never given to all the ethnic nation, not even a remnant, it was exclusively to the Levitical lineage, sons of Aaron. That's why so many could not receive Christ as the High Priest to come having come from the line of Judah.

 

[Doug]

Are you trying to change the subject? We're talking about something that was a reality when he wrote Revelation 1:5-6, not something that will happen in the future.

I wouldnt rule out that he was talking about the future.........Israel is not reigning as kings and priests as Rev 1:6 says......Rev 1:1 does speak of things to come to pass

 

[Doug]

Take your Dispensatanist glasses off and you will see it in the text and elsewhere. Rev 5:9-10: "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

It is hard to take you serious. You twist every passage to support your Zionism. Who needs the Holy Spirit.

Take your Dispensatanist glasses off and you will see it in the text and elsewhere. Rev 5:9-10: "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Sorry but this is talking about the believing remnant of Israel who only will be kings and priests Exodus 19:5-6 Isaiah 61;6

It is hard to take you serious. You twist every passage to support your Zionism. Who needs the Holy Spirit.

Sorry but the whole Bible speaks of Israel

 

[rwb]

Sorry but this is talking about the believing remnant of Israel who only will be kings and priests Exodus 19:5-6 Isaiah 61;6

Sorry but the whole Bible speaks of Israel

Why is John instructed to write to seven churches a message from Jesus Christ, who is the first born of the dead and prince of the kings of the earth? Since when, where is it written that a remnant from ethnic Israel shall be kings of the earth? Why is John instructed to write to them (seven churches) whom Christ has cleansed from sins by His own blood, calling them (seven churches) "kings of the earth and priests unto God and His Father"? That makes no sense if John is writing only to a believing remnant of Israel of Old!!!

Revelation 1:4-6 (KJV) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Doug]

Who do you believe "ascended up on high"? And how was it that the one who ascended up on high "led captivity captive"? Why did this same one that ascended up on high "first descend into the lower parts of the earth"? What gifts did the one that ascended up on high give unto men?

After ascending up on high with those captives held in captivity in the lower parts of the earth, the one who ascended up on high established leadership for the body of Christ on earth that they might all come to unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Who do you believe "ascended up on high"?

Christ

And how was it that the one who ascended up on high "led captivity captive"

Christ spoiled principalties and powers which is the devil and his angels Colossians 2:15 Hebrews 2:14

Why did this same one that ascended up on high "first descend into the lower parts of the earth"

Christ made himself flesh and blood to destroy death and the one who had power of death, the devil Hebrew 2:14

What gifts did the one that ascended up on high give unto men?

Grace, the Holy Spirit, and [Eph 4:11 KJV] 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[Doug]

How can ethnic Jews of Old be the remnant called the priesthood of God since they died in unbelief? The priesthood of Old was never given to all the ethnic nation, not even a remnant, it was exclusively to the Levitical lineage, sons of Aaron. That's why so many could not receive Christ as the High Priest to come having come from the line of Judah.

How can ethnic Jews of Old be the remnant called the priesthood of God since they died in unbelief?

They didnt all die

The priesthood of Old was never given to all the ethnic nation, not even a remnant, it was exclusively to the Levitical lineage, sons of Aaron.

God said they will be in Exodus 19:5 -6

 

[Doug]

Why is John instructed to write to seven churches a message from Jesus Christ, who is the first born of the dead and prince of the kings of the earth? Since when, where is it written that a remnant from ethnic Israel shall be kings of the earth? Why is John instructed to write to them (seven churches) whom Christ has cleansed from sins by His own blood, calling them (seven churches) "kings of the earth and priests unto God and His Father"? That makes no sense if John is writing only to a believing remnant of Israel of Old!!!

Revelation 1:4-6 (KJV) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

where is it written that a remnant from ethnic Israel shall be kings of the earth?

[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[Isa 61:6 KJV] 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
[1Pe 2:9 KJV] 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Why is John instructed to write to them (seven churches) whom Christ has cleansed from sins by His own blood, calling them (seven churches) "kings of the earth and priests unto God and His Father"? That makes no sense if John is writing only to a believing remnant of Israel of Old!!!

sorry dont follow

 

[WPM]

Sorry but this is talking about the believing remnant of Israel who only will be kings and priests Exodus 19:5-6 Isaiah 61;6

Sorry but the whole Bible speaks of Israel

And who is a true child of promise, spiritual Jew, Israelite, child of Abraham, and citizen of Sion?

We the followers of Jesus.

 

[WPM]

Christ

Christ spoiled principalties and powers which is the devil and his angels Colossians 2:15 Hebrews 2:14

Christ made himself flesh and blood to destroy death and the one who had power of death, the devil Hebrew 2:14

Grace, the Holy Spirit, and [Eph 4:11 KJV] 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This was the last statement that Christ declared in His earthly life. So, His Spirit immediately ascended to heaven to His Father, whereas His body was placed in the grave. In the three-day period of separation between body and spirit, Christ’s spirit abode in the heavenly abode, waiting for the unification of His spirit with His new incorruptible body. On the third day both parts re-unified. It was at this point that He was qualified to take the keys of hell and of death as He did; it was only then that He appeared unto the disciples in a glorified form.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

It is finished

Whilst Matthew doesn’t identify what Christ said before He gave up the ghost John does in 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Christ didn’t need to go to hell for 3 days to be punished or to fully secure our penalty. The cross was enough.

What happened to Jesus after this?

Did He go to hell for 3 days as some say?

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

I believe Christ's body was in the tomb for 3 days in-between His death and physical resurrection. I believe His Spirit went immediately into the presence of God. But, before that, I believe that He went descended into Hades to release all the redeemed and that they accompanying him into heaven.

The result of this can be where the New Testament locates the dead in Christ after the victory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer “opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.

Jesus said in Revelation 1:17-18, “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemies at the cross and gloriously rose from the dead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did read it....thats why I say ok there were churches in these locations in other passages but that does not mean John was writing at that time to them but to future churches who would read it going into the tribulation

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry but this is talking about the believing remnant of Israel who only will be kings and priests Exodus 19:5-6 Isaiah 61;6

Sorry but the whole Bible speaks of Israel

What does that mean? Do you believe there is no such thing as the church?

How do you interpret this passage:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wouldnt rule out that he was talking about the future.........Israel is not reigning as kings and priests as Rev 1:6 says......Rev 1:1 does speak of things to come to pass

John is not talking to Israel in Revelation 1:5-6, he was talking to those who were in churches consistent of Jew and Gentile believers in the ancient Roman province of Asia. That Roman province doesn't even exist anymore, so how could he have been writing to future churches? You couldn't possibly be more off base about this if you tried.

Look at the tense being used in the verse. It's present tense. Jesus "HAS MADE" them kings and priests" as of the time John wrote the book.

As for what you said about Rev 1:1, did you not read this verse...

Revelation 1:19 Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

 

[Doug]

And who is a true child of promise, spiritual Jew, Israelite, child of Abraham, and citizen of Sion?

We the followers of Jesus.

The Israel of God is by faith

To follow Jesus we have to follow Paul.........................
[1Co 4:16 KJV] 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
[1Co 11:1 KJV] 1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Israel of God is by faith

That is correct, so do you think maybe in places where you think it's talking about national Israel it might be talking about the Israel of God that consists only of those who have faith instead, including Jew and Gentile believers?

 

[WPM]

The Israel of God is by faith

To follow Jesus we have to follow Paul.........................
[1Co 4:16 KJV] 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
[1Co 11:1 KJV] 1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

We follow Christ. Paul was simply instructing the Corinthians to follow his example.

 

[WPM]

John is not talking to Israel in Revelation 1:5-6, he was talking to those who were in churches consistent of Jew and Gentile believers in the ancient Roman province of Asia. That Roman province doesn't even exist anymore, so how could he have been writing to future churches? You couldn't possibly be more off base about this if you tried.

Look at the tense being used in the verse. It's present tense. Jesus "HAS MADE" them kings and priests" as of the time John wrote the book.

As for what you said about Rev 1:1, did you not read this verse...

Revelation 1:19 Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

Exactly bro. Simple!

 

[WPM]

Christ

Christ spoiled principalties and powers which is the devil and his angels Colossians 2:15 Hebrews 2:14

Christ made himself flesh and blood to destroy death and the one who had power of death, the devil Hebrew 2:14

Grace, the Holy Spirit, and [Eph 4:11 KJV] 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Christ came to defeat Satan and liberate His own elect from every hold of Satan. Hades was one of these enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Israel of God is by faith

To follow Jesus we have to follow Paul.........................
[1Co 4:16 KJV] 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
[1Co 11:1 KJV] 1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

Paul was not saying to follow him, he was saying to follow his teaching about following Christ the way he did.

 

[Doug]

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This was the last statement that Christ declared in His earthly life. So, His Spirit immediately ascended to heaven to His Father, whereas His body was placed in the grave. In the three-day period of separation between body and spirit, Christ’s spirit abode in the heavenly abode, waiting for the unification of His spirit with His new incorruptible body. On the third day both parts re-unified. It was at this point that He was qualified to take the keys of hell and of death as He did; it was only then that He appeared unto the disciples in a glorified form.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

It is finished

Whilst Matthew doesn’t identify what Christ said before He gave up the ghost John does in 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Christ didn’t need to go to hell for 3 days to be punished or to fully secure our penalty. The cross was enough.

What happened to Jesus after this?

Did He go to hell for 3 days as some say?

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

I believe Christ's body was in the tomb for 3 days in-between His death and physical resurrection. I believe His Spirit went immediately into the presence of God. But, before that, I believe that He went descended into Hades to release all the redeemed and that they accompanying him into heaven.

The result of this

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This was the last statement that Christ declared in His earthly life. So, His Spirit immediately ascended to heaven to His Father,

[Jhn 20:16-17 KJV] 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

After his resurrection Christ told Mary he wasn't ascended yet

[Luk 24:51 KJV] 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

This is when he ascended

Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

Yes well said

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

as far as I know Abraham's bosom .......the good side of the gulf

Christ didn’t need to go to hell for 3 days to be punished or to fully secure our penalty. The cross was enough.

I dont think he went to hell either

What happened to Jesus after this?

Did He go to hell for 3 days as some say?

no he went to the good side of Abraham's bosom

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades. according to you
The verse just does not say this,,,,,,I could be wrong and it does but I see no scripture to think so

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

I believe Christ's body was in the tomb for 3 days in-between His death and physical resurrection. I believe His Spirit went immediately into the presence of God. But, before that, I believe that He went descended into Hades to release all the redeemed and that they accompanying him into heaven.

again I see no supporting scripture

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer “opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

I think Satan held us captive to his will and Christ destroyed that power

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.

Well said,,,,I just dont think he emptied Abraham's bosom but he released us from the Devil's power in taking us captive to him