Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Doug]

You are not getting it are you? You have addressed nothing. You are papering over the evidence before you. Paradise is what i said it was, not what you have been taught.

Can you see the folly of your error? You have zero Scripture. It is all invented imaginations in your head. That sums up Premil. Who needs Scripture with such an ad hoc approach to God's Word?

ok when Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise in Luke 23:43 where was paradise?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the main point is that they rose from the dead
Rev 20:4 says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years........they are the believing remnant of Israel

John saw souls and he said they live and reign with Christ. Do you believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are alive? Do you believe that they spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection while they were alive like the following passage talks about?

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Where does Revelation 20:4 say "they are the believing remnant of Israel"?

 

[Doug]

John saw souls and he said they live and reign with Christ. Do you believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are alive? Do you believe that they spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection while they were alive like the following passage talks about?

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Where does Revelation 20:4 say "they are the believing remnant of Israel"?

Do you believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are alive?

yes

Where does Revelation 20:4 say "they are the believing remnant of Israel"?

it doesnt but only Israel in Exodus 19:6 says they will be priests

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

yes

it doesnt but only Israel in Exodus 19:6 says they will be priests

Both 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:5-6 say Christians are priests.

 

[Doug]

Both 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:5-6 say Christians are priests.

they dont say it is us the body of Christ.....the priests are believing Israel

 

[WPM]

ok when Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise in Luke 23:43 where was paradise?

Heaven. Nowhere does it say Hades. That is your own personal invention.

 

[Doug]

Heaven. Nowhere does it say Haley's. That is your own personal invention.

Heaven. Nowhere does it say Haley's. That is your own personal invention.

Haley's ???????????? where did I say this ?

 

[WPM]

Haley's ???????????? where did I say this ?

Hades. You knew what i meant.

 

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 20:6 tells us: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Whatever angle you look up Premillennialism, it tends to contradict itself. According to this view, the means by which men escape the second death is physical resurrection when Jesus comes (this is their understanding of the first resurrection). However, this leaves out physically alive believers, who are obviously not physically resurrected when Jesus comes. That is because they do not physically die at the second coming. They are physically changed and caught up in a moment. This is altogether different from resurrection.

This demolishes the whole Premil thesis.

In the Premillennialist school of thought, the living redeemed who are on earth when Jesus comes miss out on the first resurrection, and therefore victory over the second death, the stated means of overcoming it. So to do all the supposed mortal millennial converts who get saved after Premillennialism's first resurrection.

The second death

What is "the second death" and what is the biblical means by which we escape it? At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? When does that kick in?

When it comes to the meaning of “the second death” most evangelicals are in solid agreement that this is talking about eternal damnation. Revelation 20:14 tells us: “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

References to the term “the second death” are only found in the book of Revelation. Outside of our main references in Revelation 20, we find only two other mentions, in Revelation chapters 2 and 21. Revelation 21:6-8 outlines the nature of the second death and those that see it, and most important the type and way a person escapes it, saying, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

But what many Premillennialists do not consider is that if believers have not yet had their part in the first resurrection, and if, as Scripture teaches, it is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and it is still future, then the second death still has power over believers in this life. That means they have not already experienced eternal life in which they shall never die, and overcome eternal death, as Jesus and the New Testament writers continually promised happens upon salvation. They have not been delivered from darkness to light. They still don't possess an eternal hope. They have not yet defeated sin, death and Hades. They are not then seated in heavenly places. This reality is still future. This false teaching, negates numerous explicit New Testament passages. This is what Premillennialism produces – contradiction after contradiction.

There is another major contradiction in Premillennialism that many fail to consider, and that is, if the first resurrection is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and if it is yet future, and it relates to the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ, this means that the living in Christ do not partake in the only means by which we conquer the second death at the second coming. After all, they do not die, they are therefore not resurrected. They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.

Only the Amillennialist explanation makes sense, is supported by numerous other Scripture, and recognizes the current ongoing realization of this great fulfillment. Only this interpretation embraces all the elect – which is the thrust of the teaching. The reality is, all God’s people have their part in Christ’s first resurrection and therefore escape eternal damnation.

This resurrection has to be spiritual “in Christ.” Notably, this promise in Revelation 20:6 is in the present tense, thus supporting the Amil interpretation. Basically, this is not simply a future hope, it is a present reality for the redeemed. When we get saved, all the redeemed of all times (without exception) partake in this glorious resurrection. This therefore gives them a current ongoing everlasting victory over eternal punishment (as repeatedly taught in Scripture).

The first resurrection

The first resurrection is shown throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [Gr. prototokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). The Greek word prototokos means firstborn or first in time. It can also mean first in position or highest ranking person.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten [Gr. prototokos] of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first [Gr. protos] resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This is evidence! This is corroboration!

The first and second resurrections are -

- First Type of resurrection - to LIFE

- Second Type of resurrection - of condemnation.

(John 5: 28 & 29)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

they dont say it is us the body of Christ.....the priests are believing Israel

You think the book of Revelation is addressed to believing Israel even though it was addressed to seven churches in the Roman province of Asia that all had both Jew and Gentile believers in them?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. 6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

You think this passage is about believing Israel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first and second resurrections are -

- First Type of resurrection - to LIFE

- Second Type of resurrection - of condemnation.

(John 5: 28 & 29)

Did you read what he said? Would it be too much trouble for you to actually address his points?

 

[WPM]

You think the book of Revelation is addressed to believing Israel even though it was addressed to seven churches in the Roman province of Asia that all had both Jew and Gentile believers in them?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. 6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

You think this passage is about believing Israel?

How can you reason with such a person?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can you reason with such a person?

You probably can't. I was reasoning with him yesterday about something and he even thanked me for showing him something that he hadn't noticed before. It doesn't look like he feels like being reasonable today, though.

 

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 20:6 tells us: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Whatever angle you look up Premillennialism, it tends to contradict itself. According to this view, the means by which men escape the second death is physical resurrection when Jesus comes (this is their understanding of the first resurrection). However, this leaves out physically alive believers, who are obviously not physically resurrected when Jesus comes. That is because they do not physically die at the second coming. They are physically changed and caught up in a moment. This is altogether different from resurrection.

This demolishes the whole Premil thesis.

In the Premillennialist school of thought, the living redeemed who are on earth when Jesus comes miss out on the first resurrection, and therefore victory over the second death, the stated means of overcoming it. So to do all the supposed mortal millennial converts who get saved after Premillennialism's first resurrection.

You are quoting Rev. 20: 6 regarding those who overcame the A/C and who were beheaded. (Rev. 20: 4) They certainly are resurrected as they died.

How can believers who are alive when Jesus comes for His Body, miss out on `resurrection to life.` Jesus is eternal life and that is what we have, and just need our physical bodies to be resurrected from this earthly body to a spiritual body. (1Cor. 15: 44)

 

[Marilyn C]

Did you read what he said? Would it be too much trouble for you to actually address his points?

Above, does that help?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Above, does that help?

Not really. You missed the point. Let's look at the verse he was referencing.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The point being made about this verse is that it indicates that sharing in (having part in) the first resurrection is a requirement for avoiding the second death (the lake of fire - Rev 20:14-15). With that in mind, how can those who haven't died and are alive when Jesus comes avoid the second death since they will not take part in a bodily resurrection because they will not die and instead will be immediately changed to put on bodily immortality?

 

[Doug]

Hades. You knew what i meant.

No I didnt know for sure sorry

I asked "when Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise in Luke 23:43 where was paradise?" and you say paradise is heaven

True Paul says heaven is paradise but in Luke 23:43 you say paradise is heaven but look at this verse........[Jhn 20:17 KJV] 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.........Jesus was resurrected and he still had not ascended into heaven.........how could he have ascended into heaven after his death on the cross seeing he did not ascend until Luke 24:51

 

[Doug]

You think the book of Revelation is addressed to believing Israel even though it was addressed to seven churches in the Roman province of Asia that all had both Jew and Gentile believers in them?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. 6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

You think this passage is about believing Israel?

yes
The believing remnant of Israel was told they would be priests.......the Gentiles were blessed to enter the kingdom as part of the remnant but their function is not detailed that I know of

 

[WPM]

No I didnt know for sure sorry

I asked "when Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise in Luke 23:43 where was paradise?" and you say paradise is heaven

True Paul says heaven is paradise but in Luke 23:43 you say paradise is heaven but look at this verse........[Jhn 20:17 KJV] 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.........Jesus was resurrected and he still had not ascended into heaven.........how could he have ascended into heaven after his death on the cross seeing he did not ascend until Luke 24:51

There is the ascent of the spirit to glory upon death and the body later. You are not seeing that.

 

[Doug]

There is the ascent of the spirit to glory upon death and the body later. You are not seeing that.

Yes for us now but not back then.......they went to Abraham's bosom