Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
We can differentiate between the nature of something and its essence. In the context of Peter's statements, it's clear that when he declares "this is like that," he refers to Joel's prophecy, which encompasses far more than just the phenomenon of the Holy Spirit being poured out.
For instance, during that pivotal moment known as Pentecost, the outpouring of the Spirit was indeed significant; however, it is crucial to note that Joel's prophetic vision extends beyond this singular event. Joel foresees a dramatic display of God's power in the latter days, signifying a time when extraordinary wonders will unfold both in the heavens and upon the earth. These manifestations will include signs such as blood, fire, and columns of smoke—elements that certainly intensify the apocalyptic imagery present in his prophecy.
Furthermore, while it can be argued that the Spirit was indeed lavished upon both Jews and Gentiles in the early first century, an essential aspect of Israel's present reality must be taken into account. Specifically, we are reminded that the nation of Israel is currently called to gather in Zion to seek divine intervention for their survival and deliverance during a time when they face profound existential threats. This moment of seeking is intrinsically linked to the prophetic message that encompasses both immediate and future expectations within the Israelite narrative and their relationship with God.
In short, Joel 2:30-32 remains unfulfilled.
To gain a deeper understanding of the period when the Lord will deliver Israel and establish His rule from Zion, consider conducting a word search in the Bible for the term "survivors." This will provide you with a more comprehensive view of the significance and context surrounding that time.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Paul's argument centers primarily on the foundations of God's favor and forgiveness -- the cross of Christ. In contrast, the passage from Jeremiah offers a broader perspective, encompassing a wider array of information and themes. For instance, there has never been a time when it was said, "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them . . . ” Until that time, evangelism will always be necessary.
Acts 2:16-21 represents the initial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, and the continuation of the fulfillment of that prophecy ever since, up to this moment in time, for every individual who "calls on the name of the Lord". Acts 2:21
Joel 2:30-32 was gloriously fulfilled in the birth of the NT Church at Pentecost, and continues to be fulfilled to this moment in time for every individual who "calls on the name of the Lord" and is added to that Church.
I believe Joel and Peter.
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OT examples below of apocalyptic imagery describing prophecies fulfilled long ago, having nothing to do with "latter days".
Joel 2 uses similar imagery.
Peter declares "this is that" in the present tense.
I believe Joel and Peter.
Isaiah describes the destruction of Babylon.
Isaiah 13
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah describes the destruction of Idumea:
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Ezekiel describes the destruction of Egypt:
Ezekiel 32
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
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Sun, moon, and stars will all go out and no longer shine in the sky as Christ descends from Heaven.
Acts 3
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
That time to come is the age of the resurrection
Luke 20:34-36
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, “The children of this world marry and are given in marriage.
35 But they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that World and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36 neither can they die any more; for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
That time to come is the age of the resurrection
Luke 20:34-36
21st Century King James Version
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, “The children of this world marry and are given in marriage.35 But they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that World and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36 neither can they die any more; for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
The above points to a whole new world to come, not of this current world.
Which happens at the return of Christ and proves there is no earthly millennial reign of a 1000 years.
Which happens at the return of Christ and proves there is no earthly millennial reign of a 1000 years.
- Hebrews 2:5
For it was not unto angels that He put in subjection the world to come, of which we speak.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Hebrews 6:5
and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, both Joel and Peter had much more understanding than dispensationalists do, so I will take their word over the word of dispensationalists every time. If Peter says "this is that", then why would anyone try to say "no, this is not that at all"? Yet, that's what dispensationalists do.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Was the Holy Spirit poured out on each man and his brother? No. Did fire and smoke attend Pentecost? No.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. And does he just ignore that wonders and signs were already being performed long ago? When Peter said "this is that" he meant it very literally.
Acts 2:19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
Why would anyone try to say that the wonders and signs are only a future thing when the apostles were performing signs and wonders long ago already? It's undeniable that the prophecy began to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and will continue to be fulfilled as long as people are calling on the name of the Lord and being saved (Acts 2:21, Joel 2:32).
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Peter, during his sermon, declared, "This is that," but his intention wasn't to suggest that the events occurring at that moment were a complete fulfillment of the prophecy cited from the Book of Joel. While the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was indeed a significant occurrence, it was not a widespread phenomenon; only a select few experienced it. Furthermore, the miraculous signs that typically accompanied such a prophetic fulfillment, such as the presence of fire, smoke, and other extraordinary phenomena, were notably absent from this event.
The core aim of Peter's message was to bring conviction upon the people of Israel and to urgently call them to place their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Peter was essentially providing them with an opportunity for redemption. Had the men of Israel recognized and accepted Jesus in that moment as the Messiah, then the prophetic words of Joel would have indeed come to fruition. However, their refusal to acknowledge Him meant that the prophecy remained unfulfilled at that time. Thus, the events of Pentecost, while powerful and Spirit-led, did not align perfectly with the complete conditions described by Joel.
@Scott Downey @covenantee
It certainly was Peter's intention, otherwise he would not have said "This is that".
I believe Peter.
You don't.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you see where this guy claimed that Peter said "This is LIKE that"? The dishonesty of some of these people with their willingness to blatantly change scripture is just unbelievable.
Right because when Christ comes, they go out and the Lamb is the source of the light of the new earth
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
24 And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it.
25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it.
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
And in next chapter
Rev 22
And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.
5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
God is the Light, there is no sun, moon, stars shining, either they dimmed way low or they no longer shine any light.
Rev 22
And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.
5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
God is the Light, there is no sun, moon, stars shining, either they dimmed way low or they no longer shine any light.
And there is no temple, HaHa, no temple and there will be no millennial Temple of God either.
There will be the New Jerusalem, the city of the Living God, where God's saints are even now at their death, that is where they go to be with Christ where He is, and He makes a place for us in the heavenly Jerusalem, John 14, and that city will come down from Heaven onto God's new earth which God makes for His people.
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
John 14
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
There will be the New Jerusalem, the city of the Living God, where God's saints are even now at their death, that is where they go to be with Christ where He is, and He makes a place for us in the heavenly Jerusalem, John 14, and that city will come down from Heaven onto God's new earth which God makes for His people.
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
John 14
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
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