The false doctrines of the Preterist and Futurist interpretation

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Hobie

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Here is from Wikipedia and it is pretty straightforward:

"One of the most influential aspects of the early Protestant historicist paradigm was the assertion that scriptural identifiers of the Antichrist were matched only by the institution of the Papacy. Particular significance and concern were the Papal claims of authority over the Church through Apostolic Succession, and the State through the Divine Right of Kings. When the Papacy aspires to exercise authority beyond its religious realm into civil affairs, on account of the Papal claim to be the Vicar of Christ, then the institution was fulfilling the more perilous biblical indicators of the Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view into the Smalcald Articles of 1537; this view was not novel and had been leveled at various popes throughout the centuries, even by Roman Catholic saints.[2] It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons, drama, books, and broadside publication.[3] The alternate methods of prophetic interpretation, Futurism and Preterism were derived from Jesuit writings, whose counter-reformation efforts were aimed at opposing this interpretation[4][5][6][7] that the Antichrist was the Papacy or the power of the Roman Catholic Church.[8]"

The Protestant Reformers, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin,, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley etc.., as well as most Protestants believers, felt that the Early Church of Christ and the Apostles, had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy and identified the Pope with the Antichrist. The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume Magdeburg Centuries to discredit the Catholic Church and lead other Christians to recognize the Pope as the Antichrist. So, rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the Papacy.

Now in order to counter this view that the papacy was the Antichrist power it the church turned to the Jesuits who were summoned to pus back the reformers' teachings, and here two Jesuit scholars stand out in particular. They are Ribera and Alcasar, and they developed the Futurist and Preterist systems of prophetic interpretation.

Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera published a commentary on the book of Revelation which proposed that the bulk of the prophecies would be fulfilled in a brief three-and-one-half-year period at the end of the Christian era. In that short space antichrist (a single individual, according to Ribera) would rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, deny Christ, abolish Christianity, be received by the Jews, pretend to be god, and conquer the world. Thus the Protestant contention that the apocalyptic symbols of antichrist denoted an apostate religious system was countered, and the focus of the prophecies was diverted from the present to the far distant future.

Spanish Jesuit, Luis de Alcazar also published a scholarly work on Revelation, to refute the Protestant Reformation on the Antichrist power. Alcazar's thesis, the opposite of Ribera's, was that all the prophecies of Revelation had been fulfilled in the past, that is, by the fifth and sixth centuries A.D., the early centuries of Christianity. He asserted that this prophetic book simply described a two-fold war by the church-its victory over the Jewish synagogue on the one hand (chaps. 1-11) and Roman paganism on the other (chaps. 12-19). Chapters 21, 22 Alcazar applied to the Roman Catholic Church as the New Jerusalem, glorious and triumphant. His writings were developed into a system of interpretation known as preterism.

Over time these specific systems of counter interpretations of the Antichrist spread and began to penetrate Protestant thought. Preterism was the first; it began to enter Protestantism in the late eighteenth century. Preterist interpretations of the prophecies have today become the standard view of liberal Protestantism.

The ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century. So the Protestant denominations have picked up these counter reformation views set about to change the views of the papacy as the Antichrist power that was from the Reformers.

The false doctrine of Preterism and Futurism, as you can see, basically are to put aside the Reformers view of the Antichrist which was held by the main body of Protestants. Preterist interpretation puts all prophecy pertaining to the Antichrist into the past so it is long gone, and the Futurist interpretation puts them into the future so the papacy could claim it was not this power. It is a deception which has been picked up and spread through the churches which has become a stumbling block for many people as they are fed its lies by these false doctrines..
 
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Hobie

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This is a good explanation of the resulting suppression of truth...
"So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men (who held the historicist view), that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist.

"Accordingly, toward the close of the century of the Reformation, two of the most learned (Jesuit) doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men's minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the papal system. The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the preterist method of interpretation,...and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the popes ever ruled in Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.

"On the other hand, the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly, not to the career of the Papacy, but to some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and continue in power for three and a half years. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the founder of the futurist system of modern times.

"...It is a matter for deep regret that those who advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist." Rev. Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, pp. 16, 17.


Here is a good explanation...Preterism, Historicism, Futurism Explained | White Horse Media
 

PropheticHistorian

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Here is from Wikipedia and it is pretty straightforward:

"One of the most influential aspects of the early Protestant historicist paradigm was the assertion that scriptural identifiers of the Antichrist were matched only by the institution of the Papacy. Particular significance and concern were the Papal claims of authority over the Church through Apostolic Succession, and the State through the Divine Right of Kings. When the Papacy aspires to exercise authority beyond its religious realm into civil affairs, on account of the Papal claim to be the Vicar of Christ, then the institution was fulfilling the more perilous biblical indicators of the Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view into the Smalcald Articles of 1537; this view was not novel and had been leveled at various popes throughout the centuries, even by Roman Catholic saints.[2] It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons, drama, books, and broadside publication.[3] The alternate methods of prophetic interpretation, Futurism and Preterism were derived from Jesuit writings, whose counter-reformation efforts were aimed at opposing this interpretation[4][5][6][7] that the Antichrist was the Papacy or the power of the Roman Catholic Church.[8]"

The Protestant Reformers, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin,, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley etc.., as well as most Protestants believers, felt that the Early Church of Christ and the Apostles, had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy and identified the Pope with the Antichrist. The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume Magdeburg Centuries to discredit the Catholic Church and lead other Christians to recognize the Pope as the Antichrist. So, rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the Papacy.

Now in order to counter this view that the papacy was the Antichrist power it the church turned to the Jesuits who were summoned to pus back the reformers' teachings, and here two Jesuit scholars stand out in particular. They are Ribera and Alcasar, and they developed the Futurist and Preterist systems of prophetic interpretation.

Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera published a commentary on the book of Revelation which proposed that the bulk of the prophecies would be fulfilled in a brief three-and-one-half-year period at the end of the Christian era. In that short space antichrist (a single individual, according to Ribera) would rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, deny Christ, abolish Christianity, be received by the Jews, pretend to be god, and conquer the world. Thus the Protestant contention that the apocalyptic symbols of antichrist denoted an apostate religious system was countered, and the focus of the prophecies was diverted from the present to the far distant future.

Spanish Jesuit, Luis de Alcazar also published a scholarly work on Revelation, to refute the Protestant Reformation on the Antichrist power. Alcazar's thesis, the opposite of Ribera's, was that all the prophecies of Revelation had been fulfilled in the past, that is, by the fifth and sixth centuries A.D., the early centuries of Christianity. He asserted that this prophetic book simply described a two-fold war by the church-its victory over the Jewish synagogue on the one hand (chaps. 1-11) and Roman paganism on the other (chaps. 12-19). Chapters 21, 22 Alcazar applied to the Roman Catholic Church as the New Jerusalem, glorious and triumphant. His writings were developed into a system of interpretation known as preterism.

Over time these specific systems of counter interpretations of the Antichrist spread and began to penetrate Protestant thought. Preterism was the first; it began to enter Protestantism in the late eighteenth century. Preterist interpretations of the prophecies have today become the standard view of liberal Protestantism.

The ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century. So the Protestant denominations have picked up these counter reformation views set about to change the views of the papacy as the Antichrist power that was from the Reformers.

The false doctrine of Preterism and Futurism, as you can see, basically are to put aside the Reformers view of the Antichrist which was held by the main body of Protestants. Preterist interpretation puts all prophecy pertaining to the Antichrist into the past so it is long gone, and the Futurist interpretation puts them into the future so the papacy could claim it was not this power. It is a deception which has been picked up and spread through the churches which has become a stumbling block for many people as they are fed its lies by these false doctrines..
Ever wonder where the idea of a future Antichrist, a rebuilt temple, and a seven-year tribulation came from? It all started with a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera during the Counter-Reformation. His Commentary on the Apocalypse of St. John laid the foundation for modern end-times teachings—yet English speaking Christians have never read it.

For the first time ever, the very source of Futurism is available in English. If you study prophecy, this book is a must-read. See for yourself how one man’s interpretation shaped what millions believe today.

King’s Works, a four-volume collection featuring the English translation of Francisco Ribera’s commentary on Revelation, as well as the first ever English translation of Matthias Flacius’ Catalogue of Witnesses of the Truth.

Get your copy here at Amazon: Amazon.com
 
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Hobie

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Ever wonder where the idea of a future Antichrist, a rebuilt temple, and a seven-year tribulation came from? It all started with a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera during the Counter-Reformation. His Commentary on the Apocalypse of St. John laid the foundation for modern end-times teachings—yet English speaking Christians have never read it.

For the first time ever, the very source of Futurism is available in English. If you study prophecy, this book is a must-read. See for yourself how one man’s interpretation shaped what millions believe today.

King’s Works, a four-volume collection featuring the English translation of Francisco Ribera’s commentary on Revelation, as well as the first ever English translation of Matthias Flacius’ Catalogue of Witnesses of the Truth.

Get your copy here at Amazon: Amazon.com
Yes but what was the purpose, if it is to reveal truth then there is no issue for Christians, but if they are contrived by questionable men such as these 'priests' of the Roman Church to counter the Reformation, should Christians be even using it?
 

Davy

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For those who believe on man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture Theory, that is part of man's FUTURISM DOCTRINE.

Preterism, Partial or Full, Historicism, Futurism, Dispensationalism, Hyper-Dispensationalism, Premillenialism, Amillennialism, etc., are all terms that came out of the religious academic seminaries. They are a vain attempt to categorize whole belief systems which most often disagree with many Bible Scriptures.

Many think those who constantly use those seminary category terms means they are 'educated' in God's Word, when it does not mean that all. Most often, those dwelling on those terms don't even know what all false doctrines are scattered with those labels, and the false doctrines added to those categories is always changing, with more 'fragments' being added.

Stay away... from those who use that above tool. Stick to your Bible as written instead. That is how you will be able to expose the false doctrines of men scattered within each one of those seminary categories.

Listen to a lesson on this given by our Lord Jesus Christ...

Matt 16:6-12
6 Then Jesus said unto them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "It is because we have taken no bread."

8 Which when Jesus perceived, He said unto them, "O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

9
Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

12 Then understood they how that He bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
KJV

With those miracles of the loaves and fishes that Jesus did with the multitudes, His disciples gathered 12 baskets of FRAGMENTS after the feeding. Much MORE came back than what loaves and fishes went out, and what came back were in FRAGMENTS, pieces.

Those baskets of FRAGMENTS represent that 'leaven' (yeast) idea that makes bread rise. Yeast bread has many, many air bubbles in it, so it LOOKS like you have more bread when really, you do not. Unleaved (no yeast) bread does not rise.

In other words, the BASKETS OF FRAGMENTS represent MEN'S DOCTRINES ADDED to God's Word.
 

Hobie

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Good posts. Are you coming from a historicists' perspective?
Well, if one looks the prophecies are all history which is my background, and all you have to do is line them up and they fall into place, while futurism and preterism are just ways to distort what is being given and just ideas of men and really total confusion to say the least.
 

CTK

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Well, if one looks the prophecies are all history which is my background, and all you have to do is line them up and they fall into place, while futurism and preterism are just ways to distort what is being given and just ideas of men and really total confusion to say the least.
For what it is worth...

Interpretation Sequence

Daniel 7:23


23Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all other kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, trample it and break it in pieces.

After the fall of Pagan Rome—the first phase of the fourth beast (Daniel 7:11)—something profoundly different took its place. Gabriel’s final interpretation of the vision focuses on this new phase of the fourth kingdom: Papal Rome, an empire unlike any before it. Gabriel explains how the little horn (the Papacy) would gradually rise in power:

First, it would gain control over the people of the world (Daniel 7:23).​
Then, it would challenge and overthrow three kings (Daniel 7:24).​
Finally, it would set itself against God, speaking blasphemies and persecuting the saints (Daniel 7:25).​

This sequence deeply troubled Daniel because it meant that the fourth beast was not merely political but something far more dangerous—a kingdom that would blend earthly power with spiritual control. Daniel had already seen Pagan Rome in the first phase of the fourth beast (Daniel 7:7-8), but now, in verse 19, he is confronted with a second phase—a new version of the fourth beast that is far more dreadful than anything he had seen before.

The iron teeth remained, symbolizing continued strength and power, but something new had emerged: bronze nails—a feature not seen in Pagan Rome. This addition represented a different kind of oppression—one that went beyond military conquest. Papal Rome would not just conquer nations; it would seek to conquer hearts, minds, and souls.

Daniel had no reference point for such a kingdom. He had only ever seen earthly empires rise and fall through war, politics, and brute force. But this was different. This beast would not just crush its enemies—it would control them from within. While Pagan Rome ruled through military conquest, Papal Rome would present itself as a spiritual kingdom, using religious authority rather than swords and armies. However, its power structure remained strikingly similar.

Instead of an emperor or Caesar, it had a pope—the little horn.​
Instead of military rule, it wielded doctrinal authority over the people.​
Instead of conquering lands by force, it converted or persecuted those who did not conform.​

For the next 1500 years, after 500 AD, the little horn would dominate Europe, claiming religious and political control over vast territories. The methods it employed, however, were far from the teachings of Jesus. While Christ refused to force anyone to bow before Him, the Papacy would force conversions through coercion, deception, and violence. Some estimates suggest that between 60 and 80 million people lost their lives as a result of Papal Rome’s inquisitions, crusades, and religious persecutions. Many of these acts were committed in the name of God, but they bore no resemblance to the character of Christ.

One critical distinction is that this fourth kingdom—Papal Rome—was never ordained by God. In Daniel 2 and 7, God reveals four kingdoms that would arise from the sea, meaning they were part of His plan of salvation history. But this final phase of the fourth beast does not arise from the sea—it emerges from within the fallen remains of Pagan Rome. Likewise, the little horn is not a king appointed by God, yet it rules over both political and religious matters until the return of the Messiah. Its power is real, its influence is vast, but it is not divinely sanctioned.

Daniel struggled to understand why this new beast was so different. He had seen kingdoms rise and fall, but never had he seen one transform itself from military dominance to spiritual dominance. This new beast didn’t just conquer through war—it sought to rewrite truth itself, twisting God’s Word for its own gain. The bronze nails, which gripped and tore at everything they touched, represented spiritual oppression, mirroring what Jesus warned about in Matthew 13:19:

“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.”​

This little horn would snatch away the truth, replacing God’s teachings with man-made doctrines. This was no ordinary kingdom—it was a deception, a counterfeit of God's true kingdom.
 

Hobie

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For what it is worth...

Interpretation Sequence

Daniel 7:23


23Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all other kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, trample it and break it in pieces.

After the fall of Pagan Rome—the first phase of the fourth beast (Daniel 7:11)—something profoundly different took its place. Gabriel’s final interpretation of the vision focuses on this new phase of the fourth kingdom: Papal Rome, an empire unlike any before it. Gabriel explains how the little horn (the Papacy) would gradually rise in power:
Here is a good comparison...
Dan. 7:8,23,24 - Rises out of 4th beastThe kingdom represented by the Little Horn would rise from within the Roman realm. The fourth beast (realm) is Rome, and the Little Horn (Papacy) was based in the city of Rome within the Roman realm.
Dan. 7:24 - It appears after the other 10 horns and is diverseThe Papacy rose to power after Rome had decentralized power into 10 divisions (486 AD). It is different from the other horns because it is a religious power.
Dan. 7:8,20 - Starts out little, becomes greater (more stout) than fellows

Dan. 7:8,24 - Puts down 3 kings
The church's influence was greatly hindered until emperors from the east broke the power of three kingdoms (Arian Christians) who dissented from the Church in Rome's beliefs (Nicene Christians). These kingdoms/tribes were completely uprooted and can no longer be found. The 3 kingdoms that were uprooted were as follows:

(a) Ostrogoths in 538 AD
(b) Vandals in 534 AD
(c) Heruli in 493 AD

The Papacy went on to become the most powerful political force in Europe. It became "more stout than his fellows," meaning it became master, captain or greater (Greek = rab) than the other 10 horns. By the time cardinal Hildebrand became pope in 1073 AD, he was affirming that the leader of the church, should not only be the universal head of the church, but also the ruler of the world.
Dan. 7:8,25 - Has eyes like a man and speaks great things

Dan. 7:8,25 - Speaks words against the Most High
Eyes are a symbol of wisdom or understanding (Ephesians 1:18). This power would have human wisdom or understanding (not from God).

The Church of Rome, led by the pope, did blasphemous things and spoke "great things" (Hebrew = huge, domineering), such as styling the pope as God on earth, claiming infallibility and teaching to confess sins to a priest on earth instead of to Jesus, our high priest in heaven (Heb. 8:1).

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" (Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter, dated June 20, 1894).

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh" (The Catholic National, July 1895).

"We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world" (A Decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, 'The Most Holy Councils', Vol. 13, col. 1167).

An apostatizing of the Christian church is also predicted in other Bible verses (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Acts 20:28-31, Dan. 8:12).
Dan. 7:25 - Wears out the saints

Dan. 7:21 - Makes war with the saints and prevailed against them
The power of the Pope was based on the theory of apostolic succession. The ordained clergy were said to be conveyed with the power to make Jesus present in the mass. Because of these, and other claims, they maintained a tremendous influence over the laity. They were also able to manipulate those in power by threat of excommunication and releasing their subjects from allegiance. Many kings and rulers enforced Papal decrees and thus provided the army for the war against the saints.

The Little Horn (Papal Rome), would be allowed to oppress God's people for a certain amount of time (Dan. 7:21, 25). Many faithful followers of the Church of Rome did good things for society during this time period, but as foretold in this and other prophecies, the Papal system did blasphemous, hurtful and terrible things. Persecution and harassment were common occurrences during the middle ages as the church forced its will upon those who did not agree with its teachings. Many, who were only seeking to follow the word of God, were harassed, tortured and killed. It is estimated that between 50 and 150 million were killed directly or indirectly by the Papacy (Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages and Later, David A. Plaisted, 2006).
Dan. 7:25 - Thinks to change the times and lawChanging civil laws occurs often and is necessary in order to accommodate changing cultures and technologies. All kingdoms modify laws, however, special note is made about this power changing law. This is noteworthy, not because Papal Rome changed earthly laws, but because it tried ("thinks") to change God's law. It believed it could add to, and even change God's laws. It attempted to remove the part of the 10 commandments forbidding worship of images and tried to change the sacredness of the seventh day in the fourth commandment to Sunday (Ex. 20:1-17). This same power is also referred to as the lawless one (2 Thes. 2:9) and demanding obedience from all who dwell on the earth (Rev. 13).

"Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, -- but the Catholic Church can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days" (S.D. Moana, "Storia della Domenica," 1969, pp. 366-367).

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [from Saturday to Sunday] was her act... and the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters" (Letter from H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons).
Dan. 7:25 - Has powers for a time, times and the dividing of timeThis is calculated to equal 1260 prophetic days, or 1260 literal years (see "1260 Days in Bible Prophecy"). The Papacy began to exercise dominant ecclesiastical power in the realm in 538 AD when the Ostrogoths were pushed out of Rome. It lost this power in 1798 when Napolean took the pope prisoner and the Papacy was considered to be at an end. This is exactly 1260 years. (Note: Revelation reveals that it later regains power for a short time.)

1 yr + 2 yrs + 1/2 yr = 3-1/2 yrs = 1260 prophetic days

1260 prophetic days = 1260 literal years
 

CTK

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Here is a good comparison...
.
).
This is calculated to equal 1260 prophetic days, or 1260 literal years (see "1260 Days in Bible Prophecy"). The Papacy began to exercise dominant ecclesiastical power in the realm in 538 AD when the Ostrogoths were pushed out of Rome. It lost this power in 1798 when Napolean took the pope prisoner and the Papacy was considered to be at an end. This is exactly 1260 years. (Note: Revelation reveals that it later regains power for a short time.)

1 yr + 2 yrs + 1/2 yr = 3-1/2 yrs = 1260 prophetic days

1260 prophetic days = 1260 literal years
Thanks for this post. I believe this interpretation might come from the writings of the SDA folks. They got most of it right but they believe the 10 horns or kings are literally secular one's and they also secularized the 3 being "plucked up by the roots" as the 3 groups you mentioned. They certainly are closer to the truth than any other denomination.

I don't know this for certainty, but I would say that except for the SDA, everyone else has claimed the 10 are kings, nations, or powers still yet to surface. This is because they could not identify a 10 member group in our history books that matched. Consequently, they must still come in the future.

But these 10 had to have been in existence before the fall of pagan Rome around 476 AD (7:11). Also, they would need to fit together with the other prophecies that speak of the coming Messiah, the "breaking into pieces" the iron and clay components that wer found within the iron feet of the 4th kingdom. This "breaking into pieces" only these two components was symbolically caused by the Messiah at His first coming. His mission included establishing His earthly church - this would certainly mean His discilples had to preach HIs Word - the 10 commandments as well as the Testimony of Jesus. God gave us the 4 kingdoms, and only 4, as well as the two actions (2:34 and 2:35) that would be found in chapter 2's "Dream sequence." (2:31-35). The misunderstanding among all interpreters is that they failed to see there is a 2000 year gap between the two "action" verses - 2:34 v. 2:35 (His first and second coming).

So, one of the most important questions that I did not realize I had to ask myself - took very long to see it, was what caused the events in the "interpretation sequence" verses (2:41-44) to happen? Finally, I saw that 2:34 was this cause - it was a necessary component of His plan of salvation to break out those of His people who would carry His Word and His Testimony to the Gentiles after the cross. These very important verses within 2:41-44, reveal the details of the necessary changes that were to take place within the final 4th kingdom of Rome.

You can't have these changes to the 4th kingdom which reveals the "divided kingdom" - pagan to papal Rome, the introduction of the little horn (after the cross), and the 10 commandments (10 horns or powers) that have been kept within the Jewish nation before the cross, and the Jews, who were commanded by God to preach the One true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to those pagans / Gentiles, failed to do so. They kept Him to themselves. The symbolic "Stone" striking the feet (only) was God's way of revealing to us His plan to get His Word and His Testimony to the world.

If you study 2:41-44 it speaks to the break out of the clay (by type - pottery v. ceramic clay), the changes that will take place to the 4th kingdom after the cross, etc.,

So, now when we come to chapter 7, we no longer have the symbol of iron of Imperial Rome only. It is now a truly indescribable beast .... but it will have 10 horns coming out of it. This is the 10 commandments being preached tthoughout the Roman Empire (still pagan Rome). Further, chapter 7 focuses our immediate attention in the 4th kingdom to the "little horn" who comes along just after the 10 horns. What does this mean? It means the Apostles woild preach the Good news to the Gentiles. The Gentiles would come to dominate the church and even remove the presence of anything Jewish from THEIR church. This is source of the "little horn." He comes out after the 10 horns, and rises in power claiming to be the "replacement people / church" to the Jews and wield the 10 horns (commandments as a weapon to control and persecute those who do not obey them. So, the little horn is not a mystery - he came from within the church but sought power, greed, control, and even worship when all those things belonged to God alone.

Consequently, chapter 2 must fit seemlessly with chapter 7 and chapter 8 also fits perfectly with chapter 7. Finally, chapte 9. the most important chapter in Daniel reveals the coming of the Messiah - which of course, ties with the interpretations from chapters 2,7 and 8. Meaning, Daniel is almost entirely about the time between 606 BC to around 500 AD when the little horn who has appropriated the church and His 10 horns (commandments), will now be found to "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. This is now papal Rome headed by the little horn.

But all of this begins with 2:34 ...

Further, if you have an interest, one of the difficult verses or terms that needed to be interpreted was the idenity of the "Saints of the Most High." This took a long time to uncover. Everyone has interpreted this term as those who may have been martyred or had faith in Jesus. But that is not how it is to be interpreted in Daniel, Certainly, the term, "saints" can be found in over 80 times in the OT, and they are usually meant to convey those that believe in the One true God, but the term "Saints of the Most High" is ONLY found 4 times in the OT - and they are only found in Daniel 7. They refer to His 10 commandments and represent their final progression or transition within God's plan of salvation. Initially, there are seen as "toes" within the Jewish nation, then, they are freed or released to the Gentile peoples and God refers to them as 10 horns (powers), because they have the power to change or transform lives. Then, they are accepted within the Gentile / Christian church as it grows tremendously during the following 400 years. Afte the demise of pagan Rome, they will be referred to as "10 kings" in the hands of the little horn, and as with any king, they must be obeyed and the little horn will ensure they are obeyed AS THEY INTERPRET GOD'S LAWS. But God will give them a new and final symbol- He will identify them as the "saints of the Most High" because at the end of time, He will call them back to Him - just as He had given them - not the corrupted 10 commandments that were in the hands of the little horn. In fact, you can see the verse in Revelation when these 10 will turn on the little horn before they are returned to heaven.
 

CTK

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@Hobie

Please see below the interpretation for 7:25 - regarding the "time, times, and 1/2 time." It ties in perfectly with the interpretation that the "Saints of the Most High" refer to God's 10 commandments.



Verse 25c–Then the saints shall be given into his hands until a time and times and half a time

This chapter presents a thought-provoking interpretation—one that shifts the focus from traditional views of the saints as people or martyrs to the saints of the Most High as God’s ten commandments. If we accept this perspective, then the time element mentioned in Daniel 7:25—"a time, times, and half a time"—should also be understood in this context.

Many scholars apply the year-for-a-day principle found in prophetic time prophecies such as Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:4-6, using it as a framework to interpret this period as 1,260 years. However, if the saints of the Most High in Chapter 7 represent God's commandments, then this prophecy is not about human persecution alone—it is about the treatment of God’s Word itself.

Daniel 7 repeatedly emphasizes the ten commandments, portraying them as the saints of the Most High who will be placed into the hands of the little horn for a defined period. However, the little horn does not possess them permanently. His control over them lasts only until this specific time period has been completed. The corruption and distortion of God's law have an endpoint—before the return of the Messiah, these commandments will be restored to their rightful place in His heavenly kingdom.

This aligns with the words of Jesus in John 17:14-18, where He prays to the Father, asking that His Word—the ten commandments—not be taken out of the world but remain until their purpose is fulfilled. The commandments would continue to be present and active, guiding His people, even as they endured manipulation and misinterpretation under the little horn’s influence.

In this interpretation, the prophetic time period of "a time, times, and half a time" is deeply connected to the overarching spiritual battle described in Daniel. It is not merely about earthly rule or political power, but about the fate of God's divine law in a world where truth is constantly challenged.

Time, times, and a ½ time calculation

The calculation of a time, times, and half a time takes on profound significance when viewed through the lens of God's divine timeline. Approximately 3,500 years ago, God gave His ten commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai—His Word, a gift not of this world, just as Jesus Himself confirmed in John 17:14–16. These commandments were entrusted to mankind for a predetermined period: a time (1,000 years), times (2,000 years), and half a time (500 years). This totals 3,500 years, marking the span of time that His Word has remained in the hands of humanity before returning to its rightful place in His heavenly kingdom just before the second coming of the Messiah.

While His laws were not handed over specifically to Papal Rome for this entire duration, His Word has been under mankind’s stewardship throughout this period. Yet, as history has shown, His commandments have been misused, altered, and distorted. The little horn has sought to manipulate and control them, bending them to its own will. But despite these efforts, God's Word remains steadfast. Isaiah 55:11 reminds us that His Word will not return to Him void—it will accomplish what He desires and fulfill the purpose for which He sent it.

As the conclusion of this 3,500-year period draws near, we are standing at the very threshold of God's divine judgment. The saints of the Most High—His ten commandments—will soon be fully restored to their rightful place. Until then, they remain in the little horn’s grasp, twisted but never destroyed, waiting for the moment when the court shall be seated. That court hearing is closer than ever, and the final fulfillment of God’s plan is at hand.
 

Hobie

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Thanks for this post. I believe this interpretation might come from the writings of the SDA folks. They got most of it right but they believe the 10 horns or kings are literally secular one's and they also secularized the 3 being "plucked up by the roots" as the 3 groups you mentioned. They certainly are closer to the truth than any other denomination.

I don't know this for certainty, but I would say that except for the SDA, everyone else has claimed the 10 are kings, nations, or powers still yet to surface. This is because they could not identify a 10 member group in our history books that matched. Consequently, they must still come in the future.

But these 10 had to have been in existence before the fall of pagan Rome around 476 AD (7:11). Also, they would need to fit together with the other prophecies that speak of the coming Messiah, the "breaking into pieces" the iron and clay components that wer found within the iron feet of the 4th kingdom. This "breaking into pieces" only these two components was symbolically caused by the Messiah at His first coming. His mission included establishing His earthly church - this would certainly mean His discilples had to preach HIs Word - the 10 commandments as well as the Testimony of Jesus. God gave us the 4 kingdoms, and only 4, as well as the two actions (2:34 and 2:35) that would be found in chapter 2's "Dream sequence." (2:31-35). The misunderstanding among all interpreters is that they failed to see there is a 2000 year gap between the two "action" verses - 2:34 v. 2:35 (His first and second coming).

So, one of the most important questions that I did not realize I had to ask myself - took very long to see it, was what caused the events in the "interpretation sequence" verses (2:41-44) to happen? Finally, I saw that 2:34 was this cause - it was a necessary component of His plan of salvation to break out those of His people who would carry His Word and His Testimony to the Gentiles after the cross. These very important verses within 2:41-44, reveal the details of the necessary changes that were to take place within the final 4th kingdom of Rome.

You can't have these changes to the 4th kingdom which reveals the "divided kingdom" - pagan to papal Rome, the introduction of the little horn (after the cross), and the 10 commandments (10 horns or powers) that have been kept within the Jewish nation before the cross, and the Jews, who were commanded by God to preach the One true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to those pagans / Gentiles, failed to do so. They kept Him to themselves. The symbolic "Stone" striking the feet (only) was God's way of revealing to us His plan to get His Word and His Testimony to the world.

If you study 2:41-44 it speaks to the break out of the clay (by type - pottery v. ceramic clay), the changes that will take place to the 4th kingdom after the cross, etc.,

So, now when we come to chapter 7, we no longer have the symbol of iron of Imperial Rome only. It is now a truly indescribable beast .... but it will have 10 horns coming out of it. This is the 10 commandments being preached tthoughout the Roman Empire (still pagan Rome). Further, chapter 7 focuses our immediate attention in the 4th kingdom to the "little horn" who comes along just after the 10 horns. What does this mean? It means the Apostles woild preach the Good news to the Gentiles. The Gentiles would come to dominate the church and even remove the presence of anything Jewish from THEIR church. This is source of the "little horn." He comes out after the 10 horns, and rises in power claiming to be the "replacement people / church" to the Jews and wield the 10 horns (commandments as a weapon to control and persecute those who do not obey them. So, the little horn is not a mystery - he came from within the church but sought power, greed, control, and even worship when all those things belonged to God alone.

Consequently, chapter 2 must fit seemlessly with chapter 7 and chapter 8 also fits perfectly with chapter 7. Finally, chapte 9. the most important chapter in Daniel reveals the coming of the Messiah - which of course, ties with the interpretations from chapters 2,7 and 8. Meaning, Daniel is almost entirely about the time between 606 BC to around 500 AD when the little horn who has appropriated the church and His 10 horns (commandments), will now be found to "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. This is now papal Rome headed by the little horn.

But all of this begins with 2:34 ...

Further, if you have an interest, one of the difficult verses or terms that needed to be interpreted was the idenity of the "Saints of the Most High." This took a long time to uncover. Everyone has interpreted this term as those who may have been martyred or had faith in Jesus. But that is not how it is to be interpreted in Daniel, Certainly, the term, "saints" can be found in over 80 times in the OT, and they are usually meant to convey those that believe in the One true God, but the term "Saints of the Most High" is ONLY found 4 times in the OT - and they are only found in Daniel 7. They refer to His 10 commandments and represent their final progression or transition within God's plan of salvation. Initially, there are seen as "toes" within the Jewish nation, then, they are freed or released to the Gentile peoples and God refers to them as 10 horns (powers), because they have the power to change or transform lives. Then, they are accepted within the Gentile / Christian church as it grows tremendously during the following 400 years. Afte the demise of pagan Rome, they will be referred to as "10 kings" in the hands of the little horn, and as with any king, they must be obeyed and the little horn will ensure they are obeyed AS THEY INTERPRET GOD'S LAWS. But God will give them a new and final symbol- He will identify them as the "saints of the Most High" because at the end of time, He will call them back to Him - just as He had given them - not the corrupted 10 commandments that were in the hands of the little horn. In fact, you can see the verse in Revelation when these 10 will turn on the little horn before they are returned to heaven.
Just look at the kingdoms that formed the nations of Europe and history clearly shows who the ten were, but the interesting part is when these European nations will turn against the Vatican and the Pope. When I went to Europe every other thing was about the Pope, what he was doing or planned to do and the news of the church of Rome, it was if that was the only religious entity and they followed its every step. So how they will see through its deception will have to be a shockingly great event that shows the true nature of this corrupted entity.
 

CTK

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Just look at the kingdoms that formed the nations of Europe and history clearly shows who the ten were, but the interesting part is when these European nations will turn against the Vatican and the Pope. When I went to Europe every other thing was about the Pope, what he was doing or planned to do and the news of the church of Rome, it was if that was the only religious entity and they followed its every step. So how they will see through its deception will have to be a shockingly great event that shows the true nature of this corrupted entity.
Thank you for your response. I do understand that almost everyone looks at these 10 as nations, kingdoms or powers that come at the end of time, but I would ask that you might consider them in a spiritual way. Daniel is all about the restoration of His people back to Jerusalem and the greater restoration of mankind back to the Garden by the only way available to us- the cross.

I would ask you to consider the timing and reasons for God selecting the symbols He has chosen. If you look at the verses in chapter 7, 8, 9, and 11, they all speak of the 10 or little horn as being in existence UNTIL the end, not arrive at the end. The little horn will “continue” until the end when he will be destroyed without human hands. The little horn began after the cross from within His church and rose to power AFTER the demise of pagan Rome (476 BC).

I understand how difficult it is to look at these 10 other than what has been interpreted and taught over the years, but please just consider it for a moment. It is God’s toes, horns, kings, and finally, His “Saints of the Most High,” that He is speaking of.
There are 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God established in His plan of salvation- we cannot add to or subtract from his Word.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask and I will try and answer them. Thank you.
 

ewq1938

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I understand how difficult it is to look at these 10 other than what has been interpreted and taught over the years, but please just consider it for a moment. It is God’s toes, horns, kings, and finally, His “Saints of the Most High,” that He is speaking of.


No, the ten horns are always the enemy.


There are 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God established in His plan of salvation- we cannot add to or subtract from his Word.

No, there are 4 enemy kingdoms and 1 eternal kingdom in Daniel 7, so 5 total.
 

Hobie

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Thank you for your response. I do understand that almost everyone looks at these 10 as nations, kingdoms or powers that come at the end of time, but I would ask that you might consider them in a spiritual way. Daniel is all about the restoration of His people back to Jerusalem and the greater restoration of mankind back to the Garden by the only way available to us- the cross.

I would ask you to consider the timing and reasons for God selecting the symbols He has chosen. If you look at the verses in chapter 7, 8, 9, and 11, they all speak of the 10 or little horn as being in existence UNTIL the end, not arrive at the end. The little horn will “continue” until the end when he will be destroyed without human hands. The little horn began after the cross from within His church and rose to power AFTER the demise of pagan Rome (476 BC).

I understand how difficult it is to look at these 10 other than what has been interpreted and taught over the years, but please just consider it for a moment. It is God’s toes, horns, kings, and finally, His “Saints of the Most High,” that He is speaking of.
There are 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God established in His plan of salvation- we cannot add to or subtract from his Word.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask and I will try and answer them. Thank you.
Well, look in history and you will find what is this entity as we see given in Daniel. Here we see Pagan Rome with the ten horns, which are the nations which came up with it. We also get a description in Daniel 2..
Daniel 2:33 &41-43
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

We see how the nations of the empire progressed and become Western Civilization in Europe, and still have not been able to unite in the manner of the Roman Empire..
Daniel 7:20 &24
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So the ten toes mixed with iron and clay are of the fourth Beast who subdues three of the kings, and the Little Horn also comes out from the fourth Beast:
Daniel 7:8
7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is Papal Rome, we see much agreement in history..

"Out of the ruins of political Rome, arose the great moral Empire in the 'giant form' of the Roman Church." – A.C. Flick, "The Rise of the Medieval Church," 1900, p. 150.

We see the three of the first horns...

The three kingdoms were to be plucked up to give place for the Papacy. This prediction found the exact fulfillment in the destruction of the three Arian kingdoms: the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths.

"I might cite that three that were eradicated from before the Pope out of the last first given; viz., the Heruli under Odoacer (AKA Odovacar), the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths."- 'Hora Apocalyptica, Vol. III, p. 168, Note 1, London: 1862.

Now we see in verse 8 and 25 that the little horn had eye`s like the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things and it "he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." or 1260 prophetic years.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 7:25
Dan 7:25. He shall speak words against the Most High and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

But at the end the Little Horn power or Papal Rome will be destroyed at the coming of Christ...
Daniel 7:26
Dan 7:26. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

So we see several points of history which show who the Little Horn power is as it came to power from among the ten divisions of Europe which were the ten horns. It began as "a little horn" or a little power at its beginning then after the three uprooted horns, the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths were taken out of the way as history shows us. So is we look at the little horn, we see it has a man at its head and it is different than the others.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn, not only had temporal or "state" powers, but we see it starts to blaspheme 'mouth speaking great things', so the little horn was a "church-state" combination, and we see more.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The Little Horn would speak 'great words against the most High' or blasphemy. And we see the definition of blasphemy from the Bible is to claim to be God and/or to claim to be able to forgive sin. The Little Horn power would persecute or 'wear out the saints' and kill many of the faithful. And we see this in the Dark Ages, during the 'time and times and the dividing of time' or 1,260 years of this antichrist entity and the nations that came up during this time which are still with us today as is the apostate church of Papal Rome.
 

CTK

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Well, look in history and you will find what is this entity as we see given in Daniel. Here we see Pagan Rome with the ten horns, which are the nations which came up with it. We also get a description in Daniel 2..
Daniel 2:33 &41-43
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

We see how the nations of the empire progressed and become Western Civilization in Europe, and still have not been able to unite in the manner of the Roman Empire..
Daniel 7:20 &24
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So the ten toes mixed with iron and clay are of the fourth Beast who subdues three of the kings, and the Little Horn also comes out from the fourth Beast:
Daniel 7:8
7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is Papal Rome, we see much agreement in history..

"Out of the ruins of political Rome, arose the great moral Empire in the 'giant form' of the Roman Church." – A.C. Flick, "The Rise of the Medieval Church," 1900, p. 150.

We see the three of the first horns...

The three kingdoms were to be plucked up to give place for the Papacy. This prediction found the exact fulfillment in the destruction of the three Arian kingdoms: the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths.

"I might cite that three that were eradicated from before the Pope out of the last first given; viz., the Heruli under Odoacer (AKA Odovacar), the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths."- 'Hora Apocalyptica, Vol. III, p. 168, Note 1, London: 1862.

Now we see in verse 8 and 25 that the little horn had eye`s like the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things and it "he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." or 1260 prophetic years.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 7:25
Dan 7:25. He shall speak words against the Most High and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

But at the end the Little Horn power or Papal Rome will be destroyed at the coming of Christ...
Daniel 7:26
Dan 7:26. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

So we see several points of history which show who the Little Horn power is as it came to power from among the ten divisions of Europe which were the ten horns. It began as "a little horn" or a little power at its beginning then after the three uprooted horns, the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths were taken out of the way as history shows us. So is we look at the little horn, we see it has a man at its head and it is different than the others.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn, not only had temporal or "state" powers, but we see it starts to blaspheme 'mouth speaking great things', so the little horn was a "church-state" combination, and we see more.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The Little Horn would speak 'great words against the most High' or blasphemy. And we see the definition of blasphemy from the Bible is to claim to be God and/or to claim to be able to forgive sin. The Little Horn power would persecute or 'wear out the saints' and kill many of the faithful. And we see this in the Dark Ages, during the 'time and times and the dividing of time' or 1,260 years of this antichrist entity and the nations that came up during this time which are still with us today as is the apostate church of Papal Rome.
We agree the little horn is the papacy. But we don’t on the 10 horns.

The 10 horns came up out of pagan Rome BEFORE the little horn surfaced. That is because the little horn came out of the church. Look at 7:11, this is when pagan Rome was slain and within 50 years, the little horn would sit atop the [new] 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome.

Meaning, they both had to come out of pagan Rome BEFORE their demise.

The 10 toes would be referred to by God as the 10 horns AFTER the cross. But the way, the 3 horns “plucked up by its roots” represents the little horn corrupting and “plucking up” the first 3 commandments of God. The “roots” symbolize the 10 commandments given to the Jews at Mt. Sinai- thus, the little horn altered the original 10 the Jews (roots) obeyed.

Example: the 1st commandment - there shall have no other God…. And this God is the One that took you out of the land of Egypt.

However, the RCC shows their first commandment WITHOUT any reference to the Jewish people. Further, the pope has indeed claimed he is “god on earth.”

This is not speaking about some 10 nations, but the Word of God.

I believe you are interpreting the 10 as the SDA teach. Unfortunately, they too have secularized the 10.
 

ewq1938

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We agree the little horn is the papacy. But we don’t on the 10 horns.

The 10 horns came up out of pagan Rome BEFORE the little horn surfaced. That is because the little horn came out of the church.

The 4th beast is not the church so the little horn did not come from a church. The beast is a kingdom. It can't be the Papacy because the emergence of the 4th beast and it's little horn happens in the end times Daniel saw. It is not a kingdom that lasts a long time.
 

CTK

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The 4th beast is not the church so the little horn did not come from a church. The beast is a kingdom. It can't be the Papacy because the emergence of the 4th beast and it's little horn happens in the end times Daniel saw. It is not a kingdom that lasts a long time.

Well, it appears you definitely have an answer to some of the elements mentioned in the the book of Daniel. But to truly answer or understand Daniel you must be able to interpret these verses (and these are just a few of the important verses in Daniel that will require you to address. Would you mind providing your answers to each of these questions? Please be as exacting and complete as possible.

Daniel 2
1) 40And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.


a) Please tell me who this 4th kingdom is and when did it come to power.​

2) 41Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

a) Please tell me what the “Potter’s clay” represents WITHIN the 4th kingdom?​
b) Is this the same 4th kingdom in your answer to 1) a), above?​
c) What does it mean that the “kingdom shall be divided”?​
d) What caused this “kingdom” to be divided?​
e) When was it divided?​
f) What does it mean that “strength of the iron shall be in it”?​
g) What does it mean that “it will be just as you saw the iron mixed with “ceramic clay”?​

3) 42And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly [m]fragile.

a) What do the “toes” represent”?​
b) Why are they “partly” iron and “partly” clay”?​
c) Why are they “partly strong and partly fragile”?​

4) 43As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

a) What kingdom is represented by the “iron mixed with ceramic clay”?​
b) Who kingdom is Daniel speaking about when he uses the term, “they”?​
c) What does it mean “they will mingle”?​
d) Who is the “seed of men”​
e) Why don’t the two parties identified in this verse “not adhere to one another”?​


5) 44And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and [o]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

a) Who are these “kings”?​
b) Who is setting up His kingdom and when does this happen?​
c) What does it mean “the kingdom shall not be left to other people?​

Daniel 7

6) 7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

a) Who is this 4th beast?​
b) Who are the 10 horns?​
c) Are they the same as the 10 toes from chapter 2?​
d) Why are they now being referred to as “horns”?​

7) 8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.

a) Who is this little horn?​
b) Why does he come up among the 10 horns”​
c) When do these horns surface?​
d) What has caused them to surface?​
e) Who are these 3 horns being “plucked up”?​
f) Why are they being “plucked up”?​
g) When are these 3 horns “plucked up”?​
h) Why does God use the term “out by their roots”?​
i) Why does this little horn have eyes like a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words?​
j) Who is he speaking is a disrespectful way?​


8) 11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

a) What beast was slain?​
b) When was it slain?​
c) Who caused this beast to be slain?​

9) 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

a) Who are the rest of the beasts?​
b) Why was their dominion taken away?​
c) Who took it away?​
d) Why were their lives prolonged?​
e) How long were their lives prolonged?​
 

ewq1938

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Jul 11, 2015
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Well, it appears you definitely have an answer to some of the elements mentioned in the the book of Daniel. But to truly answer or understand Daniel you must be able to interpret these verses (and these are just a few of the important verses in Daniel that will require you to address. Would you mind providing your answers to each of these questions? Please be as exacting and complete as possible.

I believe all or most unfulfilled prophecy at the time of the cross would not come to pass but would be replaced by new prophecy relating to the new covenant. Instead of various visions in Daniel, see Rev for updated prophecy.