Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[St. SteVen]

Wrangler doesn’t, he’s never spoken to me like that.

Hard to say bad things about someone who is kissing your bum. - LOL

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[David in NJ]

Scripture is a diversion on a religious forum? Who knew?


There's no talking to you. Clearly a fruitless endeavor.

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Scripture is a diversion on a religious forum? Who knew?

Oh the Joy of Godly Humor.

Was it God 'incognito' the whole time when we would wait for the 'Good Humor' truck???

 

[face2face]

. Christ did not literally descend from heaven! ©face2face regarding John 3:13

. This means that Jesus existed in the mind of God from the very beginning and was manifested when He was given life through Mary. ©face2face

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After these 2 statements of yours I prefer to no longer communicate with you.

That’s a timely and convenient response.

It’s understandable that you may find it difficult to comprehend how the Son of Man could have come from Heaven, given the apparent contradiction in your understanding. A man in the flesh, the Son of Man, could not have come from Heaven literally as you beleive! However, that verse only truly makes sense when viewed through the lens of God’s creative work—both in the act of creation and in the raising up of His Son (through Mary).

All things have existed in the mind of God from the very beginning, including the intricate details of Jesus' life, His struggles in the flesh, and His crucifixion—each part of the plan carried out by God and His divine council, as we are told:

"this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." (Acts 2:23)

Jesus, as well as each of us, was part of that definite plan and foreknowledge.

To claim otherwise is to display a profound misunderstanding.

You have been shown what is the good and perfect will of God, and there is more than enough truth in this discussion for you to be without excuse.

F2F

 

[face2face]

That's priceless. And you really should get a sense of humor.

Imagine that, the doctrine of the Trinity challenges human logic.
I guess we didn't know that God was allowed to do that.
And we certainly have provided tons of biblical evidence.
Though never to your satisfaction.

Why did the Pharisees pick up stones when Jesus said this?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 10:29-32 NIV
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a];
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father.
For which of these do you stone me?”

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After 166 pages of detailed discussion, this is all you have to offer? That section has indeed been thoroughly illuminated by truth!

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

And we certainly have provided tons of biblical evidence.
Though never to your satisfaction.

Incorrect. You are confusing Biblical evidence with extreme eisegesis. An example of actual Biblical evidence is Jesus saying the Father is the only true God.

What does this evidence imply about other gods, including the trinitarian god?

 

[Wrangler]

A man in the flesh, the Son of Man, could not have come from Heaven literally as you beleive!

A common theme among trinitarians, improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

 

[David in NJ]

Incorrect. You are confusing Biblical evidence with extreme eisegesis. An example of actual Biblical evidence is Jesus saying the Father is the only true God.

What does this evidence imply about other gods, including the trinitarian god?

the sin of extreme eisegesis = "the Word was a god"

God will not permit a single person who believes and promotes this sin into His Kingdom.

Turn away from sin and run to the Feet of the Lord Jesus Christ where your sins can be washed away = forever!!!

 

[Scott Downey]

Virgin birth
Jesus forgives you your sins
God's Son also called Immanuel, which means God with us. God came to earth.
And HE is the First Born, only begotten Son of God in whom dwells all the fullness of God which proves His own divine nature is of God Himself.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Matthew 1:25
and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Jesus tells us He came down from Heaven, Jesus is called both the Son of Man and the Son of God
But they did not recognize Him as someone who is in Heaven and who came down from Heaven from God.
Who came down from the side of God and who was with God in the beginning in glory with the Father.
OF course, He was not known then as Jesus, as the angel said at His birth that you will call Him Jesus for He will save His people from their sins.

Because of whom He is, you can claim and call Him your Savior when you receive Him, to those who believe in His NAME, the Name above all names, your given the right to become the children of God. Jesus did say 'I AM HE' and that if you do not believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins

Jesus, the name we know Him by, is not of this earth. If Jesus is not of this earth, then He is of Heaven. And if of Heaven then Jesus is of God.

John 8
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.

John 3
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[David in NJ]

A common theme among trinitarians, improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

A common theme among trinitarians, improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

Genesis 1:26 - "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

 

[face2face]

A common theme among trinitarians, improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

John uses idiomatic language frequently (ho-hum!). I suppose we can provide a few examples.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again," do Trinitarians respond as Nicodemus did?

Do they literally seek for "living water"?

Do they search for a literal "living bread"?

The Son of Man did not literally come down from Heaven, as we are told about His birth and the circumstances surrounding it!

It's their inabitity to discern the text and ask sound questions which has them in this position

F2F

 

[ProDeo]

A common theme among trinitarians, improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

A common theme among uniterians improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

 

[David in NJ]

John uses idiomatic language frequently (ho-hum!). I suppose we can provide a few examples.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again," do Trinitarians respond as Nicodemus did?

Do they literally seek for "living water"?

Do they search for a literal "living bread"?

The Son of Man did not literally come down from Heaven, as we are told about His birth and the circumstances surrounding it!

It's their inabitity to discern the text and ask sound questions which has them in this position

F2F

SINmatic speech = the Word was "a god"

TRUTH = ‘You shall have no other gods besides ME.

TRUTH = JESUS = If you love ME obey MY commandments

 

[face2face]

A common theme among uniterians improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

Haha, Pro – coming from someone who never once explained his "Son of Man in Heaven" theory. It's just like Johann with his dualism – another unexplainable mystery lost in the abyss of the Trinity.

Chaulk up another one on the list!

F2F

 

[face2face]

SINmatic speech = the Word was "a god"

TRUTH = ‘You shall have no other gods besides ME.

TRUTH = JESUS = If you love ME obey MY commandments

Actually there will be many gods with a small "g" but only One Almighty God David.

 

[Wrangler]

The Son of Man did not literally come down from Heaven, as we are told about His birth and the circumstances surrounding it!

It's their inabitity to discern the text and ask sound questions which has them in this position

Again, I don’t think the failure to discern God’s word correctly between figurative and literal revolves around ability but IDOLATRY. They must resort to mystical dualism because the trinity is not in the Bible.

It’s a simple fact that they cannot admit, which is why they retreat to semantic arguments, like conceding the word ‘trinity’ is not in Scripture but still claim the idea is there despite its complete absence.

To overcome this, they employ what I call artificial synthesis. A verse here, sliced with an out of context verse there. You can generate any doctrine you want that way.

However, it still does not overcome the fact that the Bible is explicit on the matter and repeatedly so. There is only one God, the Father.

An inquiring mind would ask why does the Bible make this pointed repeatedly if it not not so? That’s a funny one @St. SteVen!

 

[APAK]

I'm not sure about that. In Ex 3:14 God states what he considers his primary unique attribute. The VOICE translation renders it Eternal. Some translations improperly render it "I AM" and trinitarians make a big deal out of Jesus using this very common expression in Greek. However, it Hebrew the more direct translation would be, "I was. I am. And I am becoming." Jesus never said this.

Even if one argues that now that Jesus was given all authority, he is all powerful now, it does not detract from him not meeting the Eternal quality because we all know he died. To get around this basic fact and the inescapable logic of it, the invoke dualism. They claim that only his human half died. My 2 stock responses are:

1. God does not have a human half.
2. Where is Jesus 2 natures taught in Scripture?

To the question, it is great fun the artificial dichotomy lengths they go to read into text whatever they want.

And further, in Matthew 28:18, which reads, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”, where many Triuner want to believe that means Jesus is God because he now has all the power as a deity should possess.. Well if this true, who gave it to him? And then the 3 persons in one, model, collapses, as the 3 are not co-equal. Jesus is above his Father or his Spirit in power, as these last 'two' suddenly have no power. Or is this a special case of modalism on display here, where there are 3 states of the same person god in action. And we know that the Father gave Jesus only 'limited' although extensive power as required to perform his duties in heaven and on the earth. The Father holds all the power as he is the source of all of it, the Almighty and the only Eternal one.

 

[face2face]

Again, I don’t think the failure to discern God’s word correctly between figurative and literal revolves around ability but IDOLATRY.

The preconcieved knowledge overides the skill to discern!

They must resort to mystical dualism because the trinity is not in the Bible.

Correct. They know this Wrangler, I have no doubt about it, as sure as the Jews knew Jesus was the Son of God when they killed him, they knew!

It’s a simple fact that they cannot admit, which is why they retreat to semantic arguments, like conceding the word ‘trinity’ is not in Scripture but still claim the idea is there despite its complete absence.

Agree

To overcome this, they employ what I call artificial synthesis.

Yes its a term used in Chemistry, a combing of elements to make a compound which doesn't naturally occur!

A verse here, sliced with an out of context verse there. You can generate any doctrine you want that way.

And in the process they manufacture a god in their own image and likeness - its a golden calf all over again and won't the Jews be in awe that the Gentiles made the same mistake they did?

However, it still does not overcome the fact that the Bible is explicit on the matter and repeatedly so. There is only one God, the Father.

Amen

An inquiring mind would ask why does the Bible make this pointed repeatedly if it not not so? That’s a funny one @St. SteVen!

Ha - the St is only interested in his own musings, the forums equivilant to a bibliomaniac that one! Hundred of OP's and what has he learned from them all?

Still holds to universalism...crazy!

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Actually there will be many gods with a small "g" but only One Almighty God David.

TRUTH = ‘You shall have no other gods besides ME.

TRUTH = JESUS = If you love ME obey MY commandments

"IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the FATHER but thru ME"

 

[Wrangler]

And further, in Matthew 28:18, which reads, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”, where many Triuner want to believe that means Jesus is God because he now has all the power as a deity should possess

I agree with the implications you draw from Matthew 28:8. To reinforce that conclusion is explicit Scripture on point.
1 Cor 15:27
For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)

The only reason for the exception (parenthetical expression) is Jesus is NOT God. I’m sure the trinitarian response to this will be silence.

 

[Wrangler]

Scripture is a diversion on a religious forum?

A common theme among uniterians improper discernment of God’s words; confusing the figurative with literal.

Neither be of you are serious Bible students, reverting to childishness when you cannot defend your IDOL.

Born again is literal? The word of God is literally God? Bread and wine literally turn into the body of a 1st century Jewish man? That we are to literally embrace cannibalism? Men are literally the bride in a literal wedding with Christ?

And you @St. SteVen, are you doubling down on your false witness that my point was that Scripture is a diversion on a religious forum? You are just not serious people discussing a serious subject.